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These posts are from the same thread. The one that was locked prior to GenCon. Bold added by me.
Jason says
"There are some other issues in the monk that I hope we can address after Gencon, but I want to warn folks.. we will not be rewriting the class. We endeavor with most of our changes to make small moves to get things where we want instead of drastic shifts that might go too far or force us to change again. We've been burned by that in the past."
Sean says later, just before he locks it down.
"I don't know how many times we have to say something before it'll stick.
We do NOT want to use items to fix the monk.
We want to fix the CLASS.
And the design team hasn't yet had ANY talks about what to do about the monk. So we can't have implemented any fix-the-monk design decisions in Ultimate Equipment items because there haven't been any fix-the-monk design decisions made yet."
To be very clear, I am not saying that Jason or Sean have any obligation to the community to respond, or that they are "bad" or "wrong". In fact Jason and Sean are awesome and we love them very much. Which is why we buy the books they write and look to them for guidance.
But I am saying those of us trying to figure out this issue are very, very confused.
Is a re-write coming (which I would be opposed to, as I don't think it is needed) or is it just going to be a tweak.
Those of us in the tweak camp think an item could fix the problem, specifically a way to enhance monk unarmed attacks at a comparable cost to TWF (or slightly more, while still being affordable under WBL guidelines) without taking up a slot.
Period. Full stop. Give us that, we are happy, monk is good, no more posts from us execept defending the monk from the people taking a more extreme position.
You can even verify that with me, as if you look at my post history prior to the brass knuckles nerf I was on the other side of the argument. I get why they nerfed the knuckles, it was lame thematically, but it fixed the problem.
Those on the re-write camp...well I will just say it...they will never be happy. And in the process of re-writing it is just as likely you will break something we like by trying to "fix" what is "broken."
A large group of people got mad at the monk items in Ultimate Equipment specifically because we think it isn't that complicated, and that is is actually an easy fix. Just give us a way to enhance unarmed strike that is comparable in price to TWF and doesn't cost a slot. But what was added in Ultimate Equiptment was the same kind of stuff that we have said it the problem from the beginning. Overpriced items that you can't afford outside of Chrismas tree games that take up slots needed for other things.
I mean, the wraps took the same slot as Monk Robes. Monk Robes. It literally is an item named for the class.
What some of us are saying is, please don't re-invent the wheel. If you disagree with the calculations, show us. Because we are looking at the numbers and the monk is behind the Bard at this point when fighting unarmed.
Seriously. Not hyperbole. Behind the Bard.
The Bard has a cast primary and either melee (str) or ranged (dex) secondary, basically the same MAD as the monk. Only the bard can a) Self Buff and b) Afford higher weapon bonuses.
So a monk and a bard have 16 Str with another 16 elsewhere (wisdom for monk, Charisma for the Bard)
When you look at WBL, the monk can't afford each enhancement bonus for AoMF until they are generally a full point of bonus behind their peers.
And they start off with base ability score bonuses equal to the caster classes, given the need for wisdom.
So a Bard can get masterwork weapons for a +1 to attack and a monk can get...yup.
When we move into actual +1 weapons, a bard can get two for 2000 each for a cost of 4000 + cost of weapon. They can make them +2 for 16,000
AoMF are 5,000 for the first +1 and 20,000 for the +2. You can't even get to the first one without spending more than half of your WBL until 5th level. It's 9th level before it is less than half of your WBL to get a +2.
For comparison to the class the monk should be on par to hit with, let us look not at a full BaB class, but at the other 3/4 pure combat class, the Rogue.
The Rogue is going to be able to focus on Dex to have at least an 18. And they like won't be spreading their level bumps around much, meaning they will keep increasing the gap between what they use to hit and what the monk uses as they level.
Level by level for unarmed
1st a Rogue is up by at least +1
2nd a Rogue can afford masterwork, monk has no masterwork option, Rogue is up +2
3rd Rogue can afford a magic weapon, monk can't.
4th Monk still can't afford a magic weapon. Rogue just bumped Dex.
5th Monk can spend literally half their WBL to get a +1. A rogue can have two +1 weapons.
6th Rogue can afford a +2 Dex item, so the rogue is now likely at least +2 for attack over the monk.
7th level rogue can probably afford to have a least one weapon +2. Monk...next bump with cost 15k more than the AoMF they have, so no way.
8th. Still more than half the Monk's WBL to bump, Rogue can have two +2 items for 16k (less than half WBL, each less than 1/4 WBL which was the classic rule of thumb for single items)
I could go on, but you get the gist.
There has been a lot of talk of "be patient". But the issue isn't patience, it's wondering what is going on.
My experience with PF monk has been this.
Me "This is awesome! They fixed the issues, sure I'd like better attack bonus, but I can DD as a move action so I can attack after and that is badass. And look at Vital strike and spring attack, so awesome for a monk!"
Paizo "Uh...no DD and attack, and vital strike doesn't work with spring attack"
Me "Oh..."
Paizo "But look, we will give you these awesome brass knuckles so you can finally enhance unarmed attacks and keep pace without having to waste as slot on the AoMF you can't afford until far later than everyone else. And here is a feat chain to the DD thing."
Me "AWESOME! That works great and is perfectly balanced. Good job finding a compromise fix!"
Paizo "Actually...nevermind on that brass knuckles thing"
Me "Oh...well I guess there is the cheesy flurry work around, I hate that unarmed is lame and everyone is getting temple swords, but at least the monk can be competitive. I guess that is ok"
Paizo "Actually, that isn't how it works. You need two weapons, it's like TWF"
Me "Oh...I mean that makes sense, I can see the logic...But since this is TWF, and flurrying unarmed is basically using two weapons, can I just enhance my fists with each being a weapon. Maybe make them masterwork as a class feature and allow them to be enhanced like anyother weapon?"
Paizo "We aren't fixing it with items or anything that would obsolete AoMF. We are fixing the class, not just adding an item.""
Me "Oh...so how are you rewriting the class"
Paizo "We aren't rewriting the class."
Me "Oh..."
So are some of us confused? Yes.
Does our confusion irritate the Devs? Seems so.
Is it reasonable that we are confused?
Yes.
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It's funny 'cause it's true. And that's sad.
It is what it is and you will like it!
Nah, but really... we're not rewriting the class. XD
Dot
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And the choir said . . . "AMEN".
MA
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I wonder what a Rogue is going to fall back on when their weapons are destroyed...
I mean, if a Monk's weapons are destroyed, he now gets to punch them in the face for damage that scales to levels even higher than weapons. The Rogue, on the other hand, is most likely screwed, as is just about any other weapon combatant.
I also wonder what the other classes are going to do about saves. Sure, a Paladin is going to be just fine, but they are the Saves God. Is a Rogue going to be able to take that poison or disease well? Definitely not. Is that Fighter going to be able to avoid that nasty 8d6 Fireball of Doom and Sadness? Perhaps, but most likely not depending on the Archetype.
I do agree that the scenario you gave was pretty funny, but they made good points. They can't make any major pushes with the class, otherwise it'll become more broken than what it already is (and by broken, I mean overpowered, because I'm under the impression that Monks are still a very powerful class as is). I wouldn't rewrite the class because if I had to do that it'd be called something else other than the Monk, which again defeats the purpose.
If any tweaks really need to be done, they will be done, and if any further tweaking is needed after that, it will be applied at the proper time and with the proper care to ensure class balance. It's confusing because there's many things they can change around, but it again majorly affects the balance of the class as a whole.
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If the rogue's weapons get destroyed then the rogue steals their opponent's weapons.
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I wonder what a Rogue is going to fall back on when their weapons are destroyed...
I mean, if a Monk's weapons are destroyed, he now gets to punch them in the face for damage that scales to levels even higher than weapons. The Rogue, on the other hand, is most likely screwed, as is just about any other weapon combatant.
The rogue can still punch you in the face for sneak attack.
Seriously, how much of a rogues damage is sneak attack? Most I bet.Remember Enforcer/Shatter defenses is a common Rogue tool for sneak attack. Enforcer just wants you to deal nonlethal which unarmed will.
Heck, Brawler armor lets him defend hiomself in a grapple and deal more unarmed damage (Monks can't get it)
part of the problem is the monk of many styles monk. while many monks probably are weak, this one is not. Maybe make it be it's own archtype that keeps the lower BAB and stuff. To be able to take Ki throw at level 1, that every other monk has to wait til level 10.
Not having to take prereqs (except the very basic first one of each style for any style feats they want) makes the monk of many styles VERY powerful. They ignore level, feat prereq, attribute prereq etc.
if they got the same power up as other monks would?---yikes.
I had a 3 level monk of many styles with ki throw basically single handedly decimate a scenario. (wasnt my monk)
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Yeah, good post. Could've left some of the snark out I suppose, but then, it wouldn't be one of your posts :)
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I wonder what a Rogue is going to fall back on when their weapons are destroyed...
ill bet they are pulling out there secondary attack item. you know all characters have backup items.
I mean, if a Monk's weapons are destroyed, he now gets to punch them in the face for damage that scales to levels even higher than weapons. The Rogue, on the other hand, is most likely screwed, as is just about any other weapon combatant.
im guessing you missed the point of this thread
I also wonder what the other classes are going to do about saves. Sure, a Paladin is going to be just fine, but they are the Saves God. Is a Rogue going to be able to take that poison or disease well? Definitely not. Is that Fighter going to be able to avoid that nasty 8d6 Fireball of Doom and Sadness? Perhaps, but most likely not depending on the Archetype.
as i posted in a different thread, saves are a non issue for all classes if you build for high saves, and it doesnt lower your dpr by much in the process.
I do agree that the scenario you gave was pretty funny, but they made good points. They can't make any major pushes with the class, otherwise it'll become more broken than what it already is (and by broken, I mean overpowered, because I'm under the impression that Monks are still a very powerful class as is). I wouldn't rewrite the class because if I had to do that it'd be called something else other than the Monk, which again defeats the purpose.
If any tweaks really need to be done, they will be done, and if any further tweaking is needed after that, it will be applied at the proper time and with the proper care to ensure class balance. It's confusing because there's many things they can change around, but it again majorly affects the balance of the class as a whole.
all anyone is asking for is a slight, a SLIGHT, buff to hit to help monks stay in line from 1-20.
now i personally say that they need to have spring attack and vital strike work together, that and a +3 to attack from class features would be enough for me to be very happy with monks, and have them not become over powered in the process.
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I wonder what a Rogue is going to fall back on when their weapons are destroyed...
Were it ever to happen, he'd steal his enemy's.
I mean, if a Monk's weapons are destroyed, he now gets to punch them in the face for damage that scales to levels even higher than weapons. The Rogue, on the other hand, is most likely screwed, as is just about any other weapon combatant.
He'd try. he'd probably miss.
I also wonder what the other classes are going to do about saves. Sure, a Paladin is going to be just fine, but they are the Saves God. Is a Rogue going to be able to take that poison or disease well? Definitely not. Is that Fighter going to be able to avoid that nasty 8d6 Fireball of Doom and Sadness? Perhaps, but most likely not depending on the Archetype.
The fact that rogues and fighters live to ripe old ages implies their lower saves are not lethally bad.
I do agree that the scenario you gave was pretty funny, but they made good points. They can't make any major pushes with the class, otherwise it'll become more broken than what it already is (and by broken, I mean overpowered, because I'm under the impression that Monks are still a very powerful class as is).
Er, powerful? For real? I would agree monks are good defensively, but their offensive capacity is worse than a rogues in many cases. We've crunched a lot of numbers in other threads that shows the monk has real problems brining anything to a party. I mean, if the monk is solo and facing things of CR-2 to reflect this, he can do pretty good, and you can make a monk effective if you really pull the stops out, but powerful? No, I don't buy that. In most situations the monk can't bring as much to a regular party as, well, almost any other another class.
If any tweaks really need to be done, they will be done, and if any further tweaking is needed after that, it will be applied at the proper time and with the proper care to ensure class balance. It's confusing because there's many things they can change around, but it again majorly affects the balance of the class as a whole.
I do agree that small tweaks are the best way to go. In another thread I've suggested a load of them that would add up to making the monk a combat class that can do something other than jump around and look cool in a fight, something like, I don;t know, aim a punch and have it land and do some damage.
I do not object if Paizo decide to introduce small changes one at a time, either, to gauge how they work. That's just sensible. What I don't want to see are a few cosmetic changes that just shuffle around bad abilities.
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These posts are from the same thread. The one that was locked prior to GenCon. Bold added by me.
Jason says
"There are some other issues in the monk that I hope we can address after Gencon, but I want to warn folks.. we will not be rewriting the class. We endeavor with most of our changes to make small moves to get things where we want instead of drastic shifts that might go too far or force us to change again. We've been burned by that in the past."Sean says later, just before he locks it down.
"I don't know how many times we have to say something before it'll stick.We do NOT want to use items to fix the monk.
We want to fix the CLASS.
And the design team hasn't yet had ANY talks about what to do about the monk. So we can't have implemented any fix-the-monk design decisions in Ultimate Equipment items because there haven't been any fix-the-monk design decisions made yet."
First off very nice just posting parts to make it seem like you're right. It's really easy to skew an opinion when you only show parts of it.
"Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer) Wed, Aug 8, 2012, 09:19 PM FLAG | LIST
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Hey there Folks,
I think its fine to look at the monk in a bubble and rant about how their damage output is not on par with a fighter or a barbarian with various tricks and rules angles. It is my view that this does not take into account the full potential off the monk, including its defenses and other abilities that these classes do not get.
We are not going to introduce an item that gives monks flat bonuses to hit and damage with the exact same pricing as magic weapons. Many of the folks on this thread have pointed out some of the benefits of the monks unarmed strike (increasing damage dice, immunity to various combat maneuvers, never having to draw, etc), and it is my view that those things are offset by an increased cost in gaining the various bonuses and weapon abilities. It is clear that some folks here do not agree, nor will they agree unless they get exactly what they want. I understand. If you are playing in a home game and you think such inexpensive bonuses are fine for the monk, then by all means, give them out. No one is going to stop you, but I have no plans on giving out such items in the core book at the current time.
There are some other issues in the monk that I hope we can address after Gencon, but I want to warn folks.. we will not be rewriting the class. We endeavor with most of our changes to make small moves to get things where we want instead of drastic shifts that might go too far or force us to change again. We've been burned by that in the past.
Other than that.. just play nice folks. We are listening and hope to carve out some time to tackle some of these concerns soon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing"
"Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer) Thu, Aug 9, 2012, 12:01 AM FLAG | LIST
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Folks,
I think that if you want the monk to have the same hit percentages as a fighter, with the same damage potential, and all the other monk defenses that they get, you are going to be disappointed. Thats just not how we envision the monk as working in the game. Thats not to say we want the monk to be ineffective in combat just to fit a perceived roll, but dishing out huge amounts of damage has never been their primary focus.
All that said, we are aware of some problems with the class not performing to expectations and we will be looking to address those soon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing"
"Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer) Thu, Aug 9, 2012, 06:23 PM FLAG | LIST
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Hey there Everybody,
Couple of quick points,
There are some swaths of this thread filled with some vitriol that is totally unwarranted. Play nice or we will have to close this thread down and issue some timeouts for folks.
I get the frustration here behind the monk, and I get some of the math problems. There are some fundamental issues with a few of the class features that we will be looking into in the future, but this class is probably one of the trickiest to balance. They are modestly capable in a lot of things but (despite their thematic focus on unarmed strikes), they are really not a master of any of them. This is a problem with no easy solutions. We will be looking into a few fixes in the coming months, one of which will probably involve reevaluating the previous ruling regarding flurry of blows.
All that said, I gotta ask for some patience here folks. The design team is rather slammed at the moment trying to get caught up on a number of issues and this is one of them. We will get there, just give us some time and above all...
Play nice..
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing"
" Sean K Reynolds (Designer) Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 07:09 AM FLAG | LIST
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ciretose wrote:
But based on what was put in Ultimate Equipment, I am worried the Devs concerns and my concerns aren't the same.
I don't know how many times we have to say something before it'll stick.
We do NOT want to use items to fix the monk.
We want to fix the CLASS.
And the design team hasn't yet had ANY talks about what to do about the monk. So we can't have implemented any fix-the-monk design decisions in Ultimate Equipment items because there haven't been any fix-the-monk design decisions made yet.
So I don't know why you're using anything in Ultimate Equipment, or the lack of anything in Ultimate Equipment, to come to anything resembling an informed opinion about what our concerns are or how they relate to yours.
Seriously. I understand this is an important issue to you, but stop working yourself up about it. You don't have any data; I know this because WE don't have any data. Calm down."
So there. It looks like they plan on "fixing" the monk when they get the time to actually meet and discuss a potential solution. No new items that will magically fix the monk and not a complete re-write of the whole class. Just a few tweaks perhaps when they have decided what the problem is.
You people need to let this crap go. All you are doing is filling the forum with a plague of annoying, arrogant, entitled bullsh*t. You even manage to annoy and frustrate the people who make this game for YOU!
" Sean K Reynolds (Designer) Sat, Aug 11, 2012, 10:30 PM FLAG | LIST
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Seriously? People are getting hot under the collar in the other thread, and I ask everyone to take a break from the topic for a couple of days so the Paizo staff can enjoy their last weekend before Gen Con, and you post about it anyway? Seriously?
Edit: You know what? I'm out. Out of these threads, out of the monk discussion. I'm the Paizo designer who's the most active on the message boards, and your insistence on pushing this instead has pushed me away. Congrats."
So shame on all of you Monk thread people!
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My gut feeling is that they're going to try to fix it with feats.
I mean, look at Stunning Fist, Perfect Strike, Elemental Fist, and Punishing Kick. They may as well be monk class abilities-- monks get one of them for free at 1st level (depending on archetype) and their prereqs and times-per-day limit makes it clear nobody but a monk wants them. Yet they're implemented as feats because..?
Wow.
This is actually the first time I have actually felt bad for the Devs (or at least, I caught myself feeling bad for them, there were probably other situations). Yelling and arguing (especially when the Devs tell you to let it be while they sort the issue out within a reasonable time) isn't going to make them want to solve the problem, especially when people react in such absurd manners, much less even feel inclined to fix a problem, when their fanbase pretty much complains about subjects that have no relation to a class other than it being a magical item.
If the Monk class is really causing this much whining and crying, then you might as well provide a "Do-It-Yourself" fix, instead of do nothing but complain because the Dev doesn't balance the class out yet, or in a way that you don't want to have happen.
Please don't leave us Brain in a Jar! I'm done posting about it and linking to your post from now on!!!
We want active devs on the boards!!
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i dont mean to be disrespectful to the lead designer of Pathfinder, but his absence in this discussion isnt going to stop these threads. other then "nothing to see here people" and "we're working on it" paizo wasnt quenching the thirst of the passonate message board posters.
i dont know, a "give us until this date, and we will feed you some info" or even a bold faced lie like "we are working on it, and we are not going to disclose anything so far. please be patient with uswhile we continue our play tests." would have sated more then a few people and ended more then a few rants.
the problem is feat fixes just confuse the issue and become must-have feat-taxes. Brain-in-a-jar has a point though: they have asked us to leave it be, and we should knock this stuff off, it's really bordering on harassment. While I think the need for a fix is legitimate, and messages have been confusing, let's knock it off for now.
It doesn't matter what the devs say or how they say it. People are going to keep it up. It's not going to stop until it changes. And then people will have something new to complain about.
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If the Monk class is really causing this much whining and crying, then you might as well provide a "Do-It-Yourself" fix, instead of do nothing but complain because the Dev doesn't balance the class out yet, or in a way that you don't want to have happen.
I'm sorry, what do we need to change about a Monk again, other than the fact that Monk players are a bunch of whiners and negative nancies?
Not a damn thing. Get back to your Emo Corner.
Irony.
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dabbler, it seems to me that they dont dislike us discussing the issue, its the drastic shift from neutral to foaming at the mouth fanboy these threads adopt. when people troll the vocal people it sparks a very agressive flame war that causes threads to get locked.
they have a thread for expressing ideas on how to fix the monk in the general discussion, i would suggest we all go there and stay in that particular thread.
i dont mean to be disrespectful to the lead designer of Pathfinder, but his absence in this discussion isnt going to stop these threads. other then "nothing to see here people" and "we're working on it" paizo wasnt quenching the thirst of the passonate message board posters.
i dont know, a "give us until this date, and we will feed you some info" or even a bold faced lie like "we are working on it, and we are not going to disclose anything so far. please be patient with uswhile we continue our play tests." would have sated more then a few people and ended more then a few rants.
Seeing similar things over at Riot games and their forums for League of Legends, I can tell you that the above doesn't work. People are impatient and demanding and when you say "We are currently doing playtesting," people will complain "Why aren't you doing it faster!?!". And on due dates, it's impossible to set a development due date. Chances are, something will come up and you won't meet it and then people are going to be down your throat, demanding why the fix isn't out yet. They've already said "All that said, we are aware of some problems with the class not performing to expectations and we will be looking to address those soon." and people are still complaining.
Keeping people in the loop doesn't do much but waste their time posting.
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So answer me this, B-i-a-J: what, exactly, is the purpose of the monk as written? What is their unique ability that they get which seperates them from other classes? That makes them fun and interesting to play?
Every other class has at least one. At least one. Are monks a combat class designed to get into combat with creatures and opponents? If so, should they be able to fight well?
Are monks a skill class that provide support to their fellow adventurers with a host of skills and abilities that shore up their companions short-comings?
Are monks mystics with strange powers learned at the knee of the Mysterious Master who resides in the Hidden Monastic Fortress atop the Mountain?
What are monks supposed to be? What does the developers at Paizo want them to be?
To be or not to be, that is the question. We would just like some freaking answers. They don't have to give us the whole Bible if they are still working on it, B-i-a-J, but you know a couple of Chapters would be nice to see so that we might have an idea of what they see the monk as.
In a fantasy world with full BAB Rangers, that can get up to a +10 bonus on attacks and damage against a favored enemy, an animal companion, two good saves, free feats, ability to wear light and medium armor, evasion, hide in plain sight, 6+ skill points per level, other miscellaneous bonuses, and spells . . . you tell me that the monk, as written, is not weak.
Tell me that with a straight face.
I know Sean Reynolds has stated that not every option needs to be a good option, but seriously? I . . . you know what. I am just going to drop this now. Before I say something that will have the moderators come in and either remove my post or lock down the thread.
Cheers.
MA
i dont mean to be disrespectful to the lead designer of Pathfinder, but his absence in this discussion isnt going to stop these threads. other then "nothing to see here people" and "we're working on it" paizo wasnt quenching the thirst of the passonate message board posters.
i dont know, a "give us until this date, and we will feed you some info" or even a bold faced lie like "we are working on it, and we are not going to disclose anything so far. please be patient with uswhile we continue our play tests." would have sated more then a few people and ended more then a few rants.
Hey read my above post they said all of those things at one time or another multiple times.
They were busy with GenCon, they said they will attend to it, and they said they will do something. They are just people and they have alot to work on. Be patient. They have addressed the issue and will work on it when they can. They have said that.
If the Monk class is really causing this much whining and crying, then you might as well provide a "Do-It-Yourself" fix, instead of do nothing but complain because the Dev doesn't balance the class out yet, or in a way that you don't want to have happen.Irony.I'm sorry, what do we need to change about a Monk again, other than the fact that Monk players are a bunch of whiners and negative nancies?
Not a damn thing. Get back to your Emo Corner.
Not really irony. I am still under the guise that Monks don't have any issues whatsoever, and find they are fine the way they are. I only listed that option because people are being impatient with the developers trying to make changes. If you don't like their changes or don't want to wait for their changes to be made, then make some for yourself; it's not rocket science. It's the same solution one does for all cases of Homebrew, where they want to implement something new, tweak some things around, etc. You make it yourself, or you find something that was already made.
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but my point was , brain in a jar, not that they wern't communicating, but that they wern't telling people what they wanted (or needed to, to shut them up) to know, they told the truth.
any person in public relations will tell you the same thing, "its not what you say, but how you say it."
thats all i was trying to say.
If the Monk class is really causing this much whining and crying, then you might as well provide a "Do-It-Yourself" fix, instead of do nothing but complain because the Dev doesn't balance the class out yet, or in a way that you don't want to have happen.Irony.I'm sorry, what do we need to change about a Monk again, other than the fact that Monk players are a bunch of whiners and negative nancies?
Not a damn thing. Get back to your Emo Corner.
+1!!
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First off very nice just posting parts to make it seem like you're right. It's really easy to skew an opinion when you only show parts of it.
And quoting more clarified what exactly? What exactly did I misstate or omit about the two positions and posts in the same thread. I can actually pull more from each of them and show even more differences, but I felt like it was pretty clear from those quotes made more or less at the same time that there is a disconnect they haven't worked out yet.
Which is also pretty much what SKR said before he locked down the thread.
The point is we are all very confused and the Devs haven't been clear as to what they think the problem is that they are planning on fixing.
Probably because they haven't talk about it. Which considering the amount of conversation about it on the board and the fact items were recently released regarding it is kind of surprising.
Additionally, as I pointed out the rules have moved since core was released several times pushing some of us back and forth on either side of the debate as a fix was added then nerfed later.
Which is why we are all confused.
Asking the Devs to address something that is a problem is kind of one of the points of having a messageboard on the site.
This has been going back and forth since core came out, with changes fixing things being removed or nerfed for some reason. My description of the back and forth is literally my experience with the monk.
They keep "fixing" it and then unfixing it, and apparently they haven't sat down to discuss what they each think is broken or not broken.
So we are discussing it, in the same way we discuss pretty much everything else on the messageboard. Only this seems to be getting more attention lately, in part because we are currently in a post nerf phase that hasn't been addressed.
If they aren't going to fix it, because they think it ain't broke say that. If they are, at least say what you think is broken.
Because they fixed it before IMHO and then rebroke it. A couple of times. And sure those patches weren't perfect, and they could patch it better, but it's like when you are driving down the road in a car you've gerryrigged with a paperclip and someone says "Hey, that paperclip isn't safe, we need to get the correct part" then they take the paperclip and walk away...
Free DD and Spring Attack Vital Strike made the monk competitive.
They took that away, with decent reason.
The Brass Knuckles as they were made the monk competitive.
They took it away, with decent reason.
The old way of viewing FoB made the monk competitive.
They took that away with good reason.
Ultimate Equipment came out and they gave us an item that was even worse that AoMF as a "fix".
We complained, they shut down discussion.
So what do they think the problem is that needs to be fixed, given what was in Ultimate Equipment only made the problem worse, since presumably making that item obsolete isn't a goal and anything that would give monk unarmed attack bonus at a reasonable price and not taking a slot would do that.
dabbler, it seems to me that they dont dislike us discussing the issue, its the drastic shift from neutral to foaming at the mouth fanboy these threads adopt. when people troll the vocal people it sparks a very agressive flame war that causes threads to get locked.
they have a thread for expressing ideas on how to fix the monk in the general discussion, i would suggest we all go there and stay in that particular thread.
Agreed. I'm off there.
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but my point was , brain in a jar, not that they wern't communicating, but that they wern't telling people what they wanted (or needed to, to shut them up) to know, they told the truth.
any person in public relations will tell you the same thing, "its not what you say, but how you say it."
thats all i was trying to say.
I think that the point where people really started to feel frustrated was when SKR said the following the week before GenCon:
And the design team hasn't yet had ANY talks about what to do about the monk. So we can't have implemented any fix-the-monk design decisions in Ultimate Equipment items because there haven't been any fix-the-monk design decisions made yet.
That was almost five months after this issue first came to light. Five months, during which time we have been told, we are getting to it; it will be fixed. And then, Sean lets slip that "the design team hasn't yet had ANY talks about what to do about the monk."
That is when some of us, not even a lot of us, kind of lost faith.
MA
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Not really irony. I am still under the guise that Monks don't have any issues whatsoever, and find they are fine the way they are. I only listed that option because people are being impatient with the developers trying to make changes. If you don't like their changes or don't want to wait for their changes to be made, then make some for yourself; it's not rocket science. It's the same solution one does for all cases of Homebrew, where they want to implement something new, tweak some things around, etc. You make it yourself, or you find something that was already made.If the Monk class is really causing this much whining and crying, then you might as well provide a "Do-It-Yourself" fix, instead of do nothing but complain because the Dev doesn't balance the class out yet, or in a way that you don't want to have happen.Irony.I'm sorry, what do we need to change about a Monk again, other than the fact that Monk players are a bunch of whiners and negative nancies?
Not a damn thing. Get back to your Emo Corner.
Ban news I checked the guys in PFS still say I can't home brew a monk fix.
but my point was , brain in a jar, not that they wern't communicating, but that they wern't telling people what they wanted (or needed to, to shut them up) to know, they told the truth.
any person in public relations will tell you the same thing, "its not what you say, but how you say it."
thats all i was trying to say.
I'd honestly rather they stay truthful and take flak for it. I know I don't want to hear what I want; I want to hear the truth of the matter. It's why, even though I want to see the issues with the monk fixed, I know they are working on it and can respect that they told us they will be looking at it.
dabbler, it seems to me that they dont dislike us discussing the issue, its the drastic shift from neutral to foaming at the mouth fanboy these threads adopt. when people troll the vocal people it sparks a very agressive flame war that causes threads to get locked.
they have a thread for expressing ideas on how to fix the monk in the general discussion, i would suggest we all go there and stay in that particular thread.
Honestly that's a good idea. It keeps everything in one thread so the devs can spot it easier. Better than 30+ threads scattered about the forums.
but my point was , brain in a jar, not that they wern't communicating, but that they wern't telling people what they wanted (or needed to, to shut them up) to know, they told the truth.
any person in public relations will tell you the same thing, "its not what you say, but how you say it."
thats all i was trying to say.
Oh okay. I thought you were complaining about it. My bad.
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Not really irony. I am still under the guise that Monks don't have any issues whatsoever, and find they are fine the way they are. I only listed that option because people are being impatient with the developers trying to make changes. If you don't like their changes or don't want to wait for their changes to be made, then make some for yourself; it's not rocket science. It's the same solution one does for all cases of Homebrew, where they want to implement something new, tweak some things around, etc. You make it yourself, or you find something that was already made.If the Monk class is really causing this much whining and crying, then you might as well provide a "Do-It-Yourself" fix, instead of do nothing but complain because the Dev doesn't balance the class out yet, or in a way that you don't want to have happen.Irony.I'm sorry, what do we need to change about a Monk again, other than the fact that Monk players are a bunch of whiners and negative nancies?
Not a damn thing. Get back to your Emo Corner.
So you disagree with the Devs. How dare you!
(s)
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Not really irony.It's not ironic that you say people should come up with their own solutions barely a day after you berated people in another thread for doing just that? Did you have a change of heart?
That is "hypocrisy".
I confuse the two sometimes myself, no worries.
but my point was , brain in a jar, not that they wern't communicating, but that they wern't telling people what they wanted (or needed to, to shut them up) to know, they told the truth.
any person in public relations will tell you the same thing, "its not what you say, but how you say it."
thats all i was trying to say.
I think that the point where people really started to feel frustrated was when SKR said the following the week before GenCon:
And the design team hasn't yet had ANY talks about what to do about the monk. So we can't have implemented any fix-the-monk design decisions in Ultimate Equipment items because there haven't been any fix-the-monk design decisions made yet.That was almost five months after this issue first came to light. Five months, during which time we have been told, we are getting to it; it will be fixed. And then, Sean lets slip that "the design team hasn't yet had ANY talks about what to do about the monk."
That is when some of us, not even a lot of us, kind of lost faith.
MA
It makes sense to be honest, since they've had Paizocon and Gencon to get ready for in those couple of months. Con season is pretty rough and you have to make your priorities. Unfortunately, the monk wasn't for the Con rush. But, Gencon is over so now they have the time to bang heads and analyze the monk.
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It makes sense to be honest, since they've had Paizocon and Gencon to get ready for in those couple of months. Con season is pretty rough and you have to make your priorities. Unfortunately, the monk wasn't for the Con rush. But, Gencon is over so now they have the time to bang heads and analyze the monk.
It does and it doesn't.
I mean seriously, how much time do we really think it would take to noodle this all out?
Not really irony.It's not ironic that you say people should come up with their own solutions barely a day after you berated people in another thread for doing just that? Did you have a change of heart?
No, it isn't. There's a difference between providing homebrew options for groups/sessions, and making (yet another thread) complaining about the (lack of) official changes for Monk. If it's homebrew stuff (which wasn't exactly specified), then whatever. If it's the other, then it's just people whining about something that is either not happening, or isn't happening at the time or way they want it to happen.
I am still in the viewpoint that the Monk class is fine as is; if the Devs want to make changes, then that's fine. They're the Devs, it's their game, they do what they want with the class, and I can choose to follow those rules, revise them, etc. for my session.
The only possible argument I can even see this fix acquiring such volatile reception is because of PFS Sessions, where such choice isn't viable, and that the RAW is the LAW. Otherwise, it's Do-It-Yourself fixing, or ignoring completely.
Of course, I will again be doing the latter for Monk threads until the Devs release an official change or update about the issue, which I will graciously be patient with, unlike some of the others who lack said patience.
It makes sense to be honest, since they've had Paizocon and Gencon to get ready for in those couple of months. Con season is pretty rough and you have to make your priorities. Unfortunately, the monk wasn't for the Con rush. But, Gencon is over so now they have the time to bang heads and analyze the monk.
It does and it doesn't.
I mean seriously, how much time do we really think it would take to noodle this all out?
Truthfully, who knows? I don't know. I don't think any of us knows how long it would take to analyze, develop, and playtest the changes to the monk. Maybe it'd be interesting to see a public playtest of the monk changes.
All I know is, all we can really do is be patient. They've hopefully read everything in the threads MA has posted. If one really believes that they are ignoring the posts, then I don't see how posting more threads and hijacking other monk threads would make the 'uninterested devs' read it.
It's after GenCon, like they said. I'm just going to wait and see what happens. It's really the only constructive thing left.
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As far as I know, MA hasn't actually camped outside the Paizo building with a sign.
He posted a thread. The thread got around 1300 comments last I checked and I'm pretty sure most weren't him.
It is a topic of great discussion, because many people are discussing it.
Each thread can be clicked on and commented on, or ignored. If a thread has over a 1000 comments there is usually a reason.