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As a martial character whose role is to be in combat*shrug*
As far as I've seen, they do fine in combat, they just aren't 'King O DPR'.
Usually monk builds that work well are focused on tripping flipping, grappling, blinding, that plus all the cool mobility stuff generally gives them plenty of time to shine in combat. The problem is all people place value on in these threads is DPR. Any other metric or ability has zero value.
So if they place zero value on non-DPR stuff then they should play the class that does DPR well.
The very description of the class in the core rulebook says they are supposed to be "just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade." If their unarmed strikes are not at least in the debatable realm of equal to blades, then the very description of the class fails, or the class as presented fails to meet the expectation we're given of it.
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As far as I've seen, they do fine in combat, they just aren't 'King O DPR'.
Usually monk builds that work well are focused on tripping flipping, grappling, blinding, that plus all the cool mobility stuff generally gives them plenty of time to shine in combat. The problem is all people place value on in these threads is DPR. Any other metric or ability has zero value.
So if they place zero value on non-DPR stuff then they should play the class that does DPR well.
Tsc... It's really annoying when people come in and basically say "lol! u playin monks wrong! noobs!".
You see, there is a lot of people here, most of them are true monk fans, true monk players. Am I supposed to believe that monk fans (and ONLY monk fans) are all inferior to you in game mastery and play style? Could it not be that there is an actual issue here? Could it not be that your personal experience means nothing compared to that of so many?
Even the devs freaking admit there are problems with the monk class! Why do you insist we're all just a bunch of childish guys who want their characters to be the best at everything?
Are monk players always less competent than those who choose to play other classes? Because I don't see threads named "Magus suck!" or "Inquisitors are weak", "Buff The Barbarian!" or even "The Problems with Rogues" nearly as often as I see monk threads.
Try and read the thread before implying people are just incompetent. Too much to read? Well, then, read just Master Armina's posts. He makes great points, always in a polite and intelligent manner. He also doesn't seem to be claiming that monks should win the DPR Olympics.
Get down from your high horse, will ya?
Usually monk builds that work well are focused on tripping flipping, grappling, blinding, that plus all the cool mobility stuff generally gives them plenty of time to shine in combat. The problem is all people place value on in these threads is DPR. Any other metric or ability has zero value.
But the problem is that they continually reduce our capacity to do even that. Look at the titular ability of this thread, the bonus it gives to unarmed attack and damage also extends to grapple checks, one that the monk is denied.
Before we could say, "At least they are one of the best in unarmed and grapple!" But now, any full BAB with light armor has an edge on them.
Usually monk builds that work well are focused on tripping flipping, grappling, blinding, that plus all the cool mobility stuff generally gives them plenty of time to shine in combat. The problem is all people place value on in these threads is DPR. Any other metric or ability has zero value.But the problem is that they continually reduce our capacity to do even that. Look at the titular ability of this thread, the bonus it gives to unarmed attack and damage also extends to grapple checks, one that the monk is denied.
Before we could say, "At least they are one of the best in unarmed and grapple!" But now, any full BAB with light armor has an edge on them.
A minor point I have to make... no books after the CRB have *reduced* a monk's ability to do anything. It may have made someone else better, but that isn't the same thing.
A minor point I have to make... no books after the CRB have *reduced* a monk's ability to do anything. It may have made someone else better, but that isn't the same thing.Usually monk builds that work well are focused on tripping flipping, grappling, blinding, that plus all the cool mobility stuff generally gives them plenty of time to shine in combat. The problem is all people place value on in these threads is DPR. Any other metric or ability has zero value.But the problem is that they continually reduce our capacity to do even that. Look at the titular ability of this thread, the bonus it gives to unarmed attack and damage also extends to grapple checks, one that the monk is denied.
Before we could say, "At least they are one of the best in unarmed and grapple!" But now, any full BAB with light armor has an edge on them.
I believe he was referring to reducing the monk's ability to shine in combat (because other classes are becoming better monks than the monk is), not to literally reducing the monk's abilities. The latter has happened once or twice, but generally in erratas or FAQs, not in books per se.
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As a martial character whose role is to be in combat*shrug*
As far as I've seen, they do fine in combat, they just aren't 'King O DPR'.
Usually monk builds that work well are focused on tripping flipping, grappling, blinding, that plus all the cool mobility stuff generally gives them plenty of time to shine in combat. The problem is all people place value on in these threads is DPR. Any other metric or ability has zero value.
So if they place zero value on non-DPR stuff then they should play the class that does DPR well.
You play mostly low level games, right? Once you start getting into the Large, Huge, and larger critters, especially those with 4+ legs, combat maneuvers are very much questionable as tactics. Sure, the monk can get the basic combat maneuver feats without pre-reqs . . . but he cannot get the greater.
Due to MAD, the monk's Strength is generally lower than other martial classes and his Dexterity isn't as high as a rogue. He cannot afford to dump either Constitution or Wisdom, not if he wants decent AC and enough hit points to get by with (not good hit points for a martial character, but enough). If he does want the greater combat maneuver feats, he will probably need an Intelligence of 13 as well.
Leaving only Charisma.
Mobility. Yep, monks can run. And they use Acrobatics as well as any other class to avoid AoO . . . which is to say poorly if there are two or more opponents which threaten. And while monks are mobile, their attack bonus is calculated at medium BAB (generally, but not always, lower than their flurry attack bonus) and they get just one attack.
The Two-Weapon Fighter and the Barbarian both have options to get at least two attacks while moving, but the monk (who is the most mobile of mundane classes) doesn't.
Once the monk does get next to an enemy, he can flurry away . . . he has no other option. He can't not flurry and use the high BAB without penalty; no he has to either flurry at a bonus of class level -2 or get fewer attacks at his normal progression. If he uses unarmed strikes, his damage die are GREAT. But die don't roll two tens all the time. They roll high and they roll low, and more often still they roll somewhere in the middle. The monk cannot add enhancements to his unarmed strikes easily (2.5 times the cost of a single weapon), so he lags behind the other martial classes in getting bonuses to hit and damage.
His lower Strength means fewer bonuses as well . . . and we all know that static bonuses beat large dice anyway. Because the amulet of mighty fists and the new bodywraps of mighty striking are not actually weapons, the monk's unarmed strikes don't get through damage reduction like actual magic weapons do. The variable nature of a monk's unarmed strike damage prevents him from consistently doing that.
So most monk players used a weapon. Until we learned that single-weapon flurry had been declared NULL AND VOID. So now he needs two weapons, or a double-weapon, but he can't take the Two-Weapon Defense feat, because he doesn't actually have the prerequsites. You can get by making a monk that uses weapons, but it feels so wrong . . . because since 1st edition AD&D, the monk was the unarmed specialist. The whole schtick of the class is being able to karate-chop a dragon, or use kung-fu against an iron golem.
Instead of Kwai Chang Caine (protrayed by David Carradine, who wasn't that muscle bound) using his skill and Wisdom to defeat his opponents with his bare hands, we get John Cena in robes wielding a pair of temple swords with a Dex and Wis so low that Rogues and Clerics laugh.
The monk does get cool things. But this isn't a monk in the tradition of Gygax's first edition. THAT monk was the unquestioned unarmed, unarmored combat specialist of the game. Instead, throughout first third edition and now Pathfinder, we see the monk watered down into a caricature of itself.
The ki pool is too low, many abilities cost too much for too little in return. Compare wholeness of body with lay on hands, or even a barbarian's rage power of renewed vigor, never mind spells! Or abundant step which affects only the monk and still automatically ends your turn.
The monk has nothing unique to it; it can be outfought, outskilled, and outspelled by a bard. There is no niche for the monk as currently written that another class cannot do better.
Dennis, you want to know why fans of the monk keeping posting in these threads, why we keep drumming on the same issues time after time after time? It is because we love this game, and we want all, all of the character classes within it to be fun to play. And when you are standing or sitting around and your character cannot contribute in a meaningful way . . . quite frankly that isn't fun.
I have seen the look on people new to the game who have tried to build a monk . . . and seen their character fail because they were not expert enough in the system to know what pitfalls to avoid and which things sound cool but actually don't work. A veteran experienced player can build a good solid monk that can perform not great, but good enough. A new guy can't. A person who doesn't understand the system inside and out can't.
Because to build that monk, you have to go in a direction completely opposite from what you witness on screen or read about in fiction.
Let me ask you this: of all the medium BAB classes out there, what does the monk offer that no other class does? It (and the Rogue) are the only two without spells . . . but the Rogue can wear armor, has twice the skill points, is SAD (not MAD), and has that sneak attack bomb which can apply to each and every attack if he flanks an enemy.
Everyone else has spells. The Cleric, Druid, Bard, Magus, Inquisitor, Oracle . . . spells and special abilities of their own no other class shares.
Where is that unique ability for the monk? The thing that makes people point and say YES!
It used to be unarmed combat, a long time ago, in an edition far, far away. That is all that we fans of the monk want, something that makes this class worth taking.
Sorry about the rant, but this is an area of the game that I view with passion. And before I am deluged with people who will tell me, well just do what you want in your game . . . I do. I have several fixes which I and my players enjoy and I will continue to run my game so that I and my players have a good time, sharing a tale of high adventure on a Saturday night while eating pizza and sipping on soda.
But what about those players out there who only get to play in PFS? Should they not have the same enjoyment? What about those who play with a DM who uses only the Core Rules? Should they have a bad experience because of the disconnect between the image of a monk and the reality?
It really isn't the DPR, Dennis, that matters. It is being able to feel like you make a difference.
Master Arminas
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Big wall-O-monk gripes... apparently raging at the world in general...
Sorry, I don't do the wall-o-text thing maybe if you want to emphasize a point you should be more concise.
You play mostly low level games, right? Once you start getting into the Large, Huge, and larger critters, especially those with 4+ legs, combat maneuvers are very much questionable as tactics. Sure, the monk can get the basic combat maneuver feats without pre-reqs . . . but he cannot get the greater.
What do you consider 'low level'? I'll be willing to accept that monks get less awesome at 14th level+
And when you are standing or sitting around and your character cannot contribute in a meaningful way . . . quite frankly that isn't fun.
The entire reason I posted on this thread is because I've seen exactly the opposite the times I've had monks at my table. Yes, there are combats where the monks are less than awesome, but there are also combats where the monks shine as well. The people I see playing monks love the class and they are effective at ending situations where other classes choke. What I see in game with more than one player in multiple groups is totally out of alignment with your suggestion that monks are unable to 'make a difference'.
Why is it that your observations and mine are totally opposite? Do you play high level more often? I'd buy that, the rapidly increasing expense of monk items is pretty prohibitive (though there are a gob of items in Ultimate Equipment that are monk friendly that 'stack' with the amulet of mighty fists to mitigate that also).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't feel like tl;dr is a good reason to dismiss someone's assertions.
I made a simple point and he walked me through a dissertation on the history of the monk class through AD&D and the errata history in Pathfinder, a review of monk related movies and fiction, and covered a dozen other topics. The post was too long.
If people want to make a point... rambling a dozen related but not relevant topics isn't the way to do it. I replied to the points I got out of it that I felt were relevant to the point I'd made.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That aside, and as someone with a monk who is interested in these items of which you speak, what items are you talking about?
Without really digging, it's hard to say what's interesting for monks, but this is the few I think are pretty easy bets for monk characters.
Probably not the best choices. To me, the big thing is there are a few items in there that work well with the amulet, leveraging a piece of equipment you have already.
That aside, and as someone with a monk who is interested in these items of which you speak, what items are you talking about?Without really digging, it's hard to say what's interesting for monks, but this is the few I think are pretty easy bets for monk characters.
Pliant Gloves (add 5' of reach for 10 rounds/ day at -2 to hit)
deliquesCent gloves - add acid damage to unarmed strikes (though they are a little weird)
Poisoners Gloves - inject poison/ holy water/ potions of cure moderate wounds into things as part of an unarmed strike
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver - a +2 (untyped) bonus on your choice of combat maneuver.
Bodywrap of mighty forum hate - Though everyone seems to hate them, the fact that they complement the amulet of mighty fists makes them appealing.
Cloak of Fangs (or the ring of rat fangs) - gain a bite attack (at -5) which leverages your amulet of mighty fists
Ring of ki mastery.... Probably not the best choices. To me, the big thing is there are a few items in there that work well with the amulet, leveraging a piece of equipment you have already.
You cannot wear the Monk Robes with the Bodywrap, and both are good for the monk. The former being the better IIRC.
Static bonuses to damage almost always outweigh the benefits of a larger random die. Sure, if you get a good roll, you do more damage. The thing is, with 2d10, you have an equal chance of rolling poorly for your damage as you do rolling well.
Let's take a look at two 10th level characters (both human). A fighter (plain-jane vanilla fighter) and a monk, both built on a 20-point buy.
Fighter: Str 16 (10 pts), Dex 14 (5 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10, Wis 12 (2 pts), Cha 8 (-2 pts). Put the +2 stat bonus in Str, with the 4th and the 8th level increase both in Str. Final Stats: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.
Both characters have 62,000 gp available.
Fighter buys a +1 brawling chain shirt (4,250 gp), a +2 heavy steel shield (4,170 gp), a +2 ring of protection (8,000 gp), a belt of giant strength +4 (16,000 gp), an amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), gloves of dueling (15,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), and a set of the new handwraps +1 (3,000 gp). That gives him stats of Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8, with an average of 79.5 hit points and an AC of 24 (not counting any feats). Saves are Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +6 (before feats).
Total of 56,420 gp spent. He has a BAB of +10. His unarmed strikes (which he has selected for his weapon training 1 class feature and is now at +2) have improved unarmed strike, weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, and greater weapon focus are now at +26/+21, dealing 1d3 + 16 damage per hit (critical of 19-20/x2). If he has Power Attack (and what fighter doesn't?) then his attack bonus is +23/+18, dealing 1d3 + 22 damage per hit (critical of 19-20/x2).
You know what? I'll let you do the monk.
This is a plain jane fighter. Not an archetype. Beating the monk into the ground at his own game of unarmed combat. He is Captain America with just a heavy shield and his fist. And I am quite sure optimizers could do better.
MA
thats all well and good up until something forces said fighter to make a will save or be rendered useless. Odds are the Monk will make that save when the fighter doesn't
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Big wall-O-monk gripes... apparently raging at the world in general...Sorry, I don't do the wall-o-text thing maybe if you want to emphasize a point you should be more concise.
Why are you on a forum if you don't want to read?
The above post was passionate and certainly not 'raging', as you so condescendingly put.
thats all well and good up until something forces said fighter to make a will save or be rendered useless. Odds are the Monk will make that save when the fighter doesn't.Static bonuses to damage almost always outweigh the benefits of a larger random die. Sure, if you get a good roll, you do more damage. The thing is, with 2d10, you have an equal chance of rolling poorly for your damage as you do rolling well.
Let's take a look at two 10th level characters (both human). A fighter (plain-jane vanilla fighter) and a monk, both built on a 20-point buy.
Fighter: Str 16 (10 pts), Dex 14 (5 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10, Wis 12 (2 pts), Cha 8 (-2 pts). Put the +2 stat bonus in Str, with the 4th and the 8th level increase both in Str. Final Stats: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.
Both characters have 62,000 gp available.
Fighter buys a +1 brawling chain shirt (4,250 gp), a +2 heavy steel shield (4,170 gp), a +2 ring of protection (8,000 gp), a belt of giant strength +4 (16,000 gp), an amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), gloves of dueling (15,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), and a set of the new handwraps +1 (3,000 gp). That gives him stats of Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8, with an average of 79.5 hit points and an AC of 24 (not counting any feats). Saves are Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +6 (before feats).
Total of 56,420 gp spent. He has a BAB of +10. His unarmed strikes (which he has selected for his weapon training 1 class feature and is now at +2) have improved unarmed strike, weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, and greater weapon focus are now at +26/+21, dealing 1d3 + 16 damage per hit (critical of 19-20/x2). If he has Power Attack (and what fighter doesn't?) then his attack bonus is +23/+18, dealing 1d3 + 22 damage per hit (critical of 19-20/x2).
You know what? I'll let you do the monk.
This is a plain jane fighter. Not an archetype. Beating the monk into the ground at his own game of unarmed combat. He is Captain America with just a heavy shield and his fist. And I am quite sure optimizers could do better.
MA
The fighter has six feats left, and more than 5,000 gp unspent. If will saves are a concern, he can easily afford Iron Will and Improved Iron Will (giving him a +8 and one reroll per day), and bump up his cloak of resistance to a +3, giving him +9 to Will with a free reroll. That ain't bad for low Will save character at 10th level.
And, in my experience, few DMs (and players) actually target a monk, a wizard, a sorcerer, a cleric, or another high-will class with Will saves. Just like they seldom use Fort save spells and abilities on Monks, Fighters, Rangers, and Barbarians. Or Reflex save spells on Monks, Rogues, or Rangers. Not unless it is just incidental of beign caught in the area of effect.
MA
The fighter has six feats left, and more than 5,000 gp unspent. If will saves are a concern, he can easily afford Iron Will and Improved Iron Will (giving him a +8 and one reroll per day), and bump up his cloak of resistance to a +3, giving him +9 to Will with a free reroll. That ain't bad for low Will save character at 10th level.
And, in my experience, few DMs (and players) actually target a monk, a wizard, a sorcerer, a cleric, or another high-will class with Will saves. Just like they seldom use Fort save spells and abilities on Monks, Fighters, Rangers, and Barbarians. Or Reflex save spells on Monks, Rogues, or Rangers. Not unless it is just incidental of beign caught in the area of effect.
MA
This. Another big problem with monks is that their equipment costs so much. For example, why does AoMF cost 125,000 GP when a standard +5 weapon only gost 50,000? Yet those +5's can be futher enchanced with aditional abilities, as where an amulet simply caps.
And as I don't have the UE book yet and it's not on the SRD either, I can't comment beyond what's been in the preview pages. I am curious as to what these so called "monk friendly items" are worth.
Monks don't have to pay for weapons or armor, so I see no problem making them pay more for their stuff.
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thats all well and good up until something forces said fighter to make a will save or be rendered useless. Odds are the Monk will make that save when the fighter doesn't
this is a major misconception of fighters.
@ level 10:
3 base
+0 wis modifier
iron will +2
+3 weapon with guardian (+4 total)
cloak of resistance (+5)
headband of wisdom (+2)
improved iron will
thats a will save of 14 at level 10, that fighter will never fail a save or suck spell. and it really only cost him 2 feats. and they are 2 feats he should be taking anyway.
so i wouldnt use saves as an excuse for anything.
Monks don't have to pay for weapons or armor, so I see no problem making them pay more for their stuff.
Sigh. Monks cannot use armor or shields. Their weapons are (generally speaking) mostly 1d6 20/x2 weapons. If you want enhancement bonuses to your unarmed strike (which are needed to keep up with the increasing armor classes of critters and opponents and competitive with the rest of the martial classes), you have to pay two and a half times the price of someone buying a magic weapon. You have to pay more than a Two-Weapon Fighter buying two magic weapons.
Bracers of armor cost more than armor. A set of +8 bracers costs 64,000 gp. That is for a +8 armor bonus. A suit of half-plate gives you a +8 armor bonus for 600 gp. A +2 breastplate costs 4,350 gp and gives you a total armor bonus of +8 (+6 armor, +2 enhancement). A +5 suit of studded leather costs 25,125 gp and gives you a total armor bonus of +8 (+3 armor, +5 enhancement).
But wait! The monk gets to add his Wisdom bonus to armor class, and he gets an additional bonus (up to +5) as he increases in level!
Yep. That Wisdom bonus doesn't usually cover the loss of a shield (potentially +7 in shield bonus for a large shield) or the added enhancement bonus (up to +5) for a suit of half-plate (and full-plate adds another +1). Unless you've got a Wisdom modifier of +13, that is: that would be a Wisdom score of 36.
The class AC bonus? It makes up for the fact that you have to give up a natural armor bonus, since your amulet of mighty fists takes up the neck slot: sure, you can combine an amulet of natural armor with the AoMF, but the cost is prohibitive.
A +1 amulet of mighty fists and natural armor would cost 8,000 gp. +2 costs 32,000 gp, +3 costs 72,000 gp, +4 costs 128,000 gp, and +5 costs 200,000 gp.
Never mind that you need stat boosters to FOUR ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, and Wis) or the need for a Ring of Protection, or a Cloak of Resistance, or . . . you get the idea.
Monks have to have specific items just to keep up with rogues and bards, not to even mention the actual martial classes!
MA
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Monks don't have to pay for weapons or armor, so I see no problem making them pay more for their stuff.
Er... the amulet of mighty fists is the weapon the Monk is paying for, just like bracers of armor are their armor. They can choose not to buy them, but they will be about as effective as a warrior who doesn't bother buying a magic sword. It is just that these Monk items have the additional disadvantages of costing more and taking up other item slots.
Equipment cost is, almost more than any other, an arena in which the Monk is at a significant disadvantage.
The class AC bonus? It makes up for the fact that you have to give up a natural armor bonus, since your amulet of mighty fists takes up the neck slot: sure, you can combine an amulet of natural armor with the AoMF, but the cost is prohibitive.
A +1 amulet of mighty fists and natural armor would cost 8,000 gp. +2 costs 32,000 gp, +3 costs 72,000 gp, +4 costs 128,000 gp, and +5 costs 200,000 gp.
Woah, you can combine those? For only a 75K bump in cost? That's totally worth it... Mind you for a non-monk it would cost literally half that (50k for a +5 magic weapon, 50K for a +5 Nat Armor Amulet) but for a monk, only paying double is a bargain.
Their role is to be a weird toolbox of things which exists because legacy, backwards compatibility and imagine how many people would cry if Jason said "no Monks in PF". And supplemental books allow you to shape that toolbox into something that makes people go aaaah. Sure I'd prefer for archetypes and Style Feats to be in CRB, but then again it would be silly to have 40 pages of Monk-exclusive material in a 600 page book.
Yeah, they're a victim of backwards compatibility. Something's gotta give.
And c'mon, we're talking D&D. This game rewards system mastery at every level.
Sorry, I'm late to this, but this comment is just full of garbage.
You complain because MA only talks about their weaknesses (when advocating for improving a class everyone agrees is weak) and not mentioning their strengths. That to me seems odd, but whatever.
THEN, when asked what you think the monk is, you basically say it's a piece of garbage so bad that the game expects you not to choose it. How does that makes sense?
Woah, you can combine those? For only a 75K bump in cost? That's totally worth it... Mind you for a non-monk it would cost literally half that (50k for a +5 magic weapon, 50K for a +5 Nat Armor Amulet) but for a monk, only paying double is a bargain.The class AC bonus? It makes up for the fact that you have to give up a natural armor bonus, since your amulet of mighty fists takes up the neck slot: sure, you can combine an amulet of natural armor with the AoMF, but the cost is prohibitive.
A +1 amulet of mighty fists and natural armor would cost 8,000 gp. +2 costs 32,000 gp, +3 costs 72,000 gp, +4 costs 128,000 gp, and +5 costs 200,000 gp.
Ask your DM, but according to the magic item creation guidelines, you can combine the effects of two wondrous items in one item by paying an extra 50% of the lower of the two. So in this example, you pay the price of an amulet of the mighty fists, the price of an amulet of natural armor, and half the price of an amulet of natural armor.
I've used this rule to make old style rings of protection (which in 1st edition added to both AC and saves), by combining a standard ring of protection and a cloak of resistance. You wind up paying 3,500 gp for a +1, 14,000 gp for a +2, 31,500 gp for a +3, 56,000 gp for a +4, and 87,500 gp for a +5. You spend more money to have your cloak slot free.
But it is all at the DMs discretion and thus might not work for you.
MA
Ask your DM, but according to the magic item creation guidelines, you can combine the effects of two wondrous items in one item by paying an extra 50% of the lower of the two. So in this example, you pay the price of an amulet of the mighty fists, the price of an amulet of natural armor, and half the price of an amulet of natural armor.
I've used this rule to make old style rings of protection (which in 1st edition added to both AC and saves), by combining a standard ring of protection and a cloak of resistance. You wind up paying 3,500 gp for a +1, 14,000 gp for a +2, 31,500 gp for a +3, 56,000 gp for a +4, and 87,500 gp for a +5. You spend more money to have your cloak slot free.
But it is all at the DMs discretion and thus might not work for you.
MA
Well as I'm not currently in a campaign as a player, only ass a gm. Though, I'll have to keep that in mind as an option for my players. :D
Just a response to those who say the monk never gets anything in new books: as I was just reminded in another thread, monks got the dimensional agility feat tree, which no one else who has dimension door as a spell-like ability can use.
Of course, the BAB requirements mean its impossible for a monk to take both endcaps, but he can at least work towards one...
That's a really poor example. Eldritch Knights, Magus, etc... can start on the feat chain at around level 7. Monk can at level 13. Some gift to them! They're starting on it right when everyone else is getting the dimensional assault feat!
That's like saying some item that gives fighters +1 to hit but all other full BAB classes a +2 to hit is a boon to the fighter. Falling behind less quickly is still falling behind...
Anyone else here remember when Monks were that quirky secondary melee class you played because you wanted to be a bit more combat orientated than a rogue but still wanted to run rings around your foes? When you found the fighter a bit boring and wanted to do something fun like leap off a wall and smack the Evil Cult leader in the back of the head so hard he was largely ineffectual for the reminder of the combat just because you could?
Ah, alas, fun, simple times where did you go...
(And as a side note, some of the most sick, broken and wrong characters I have had the displeasure to DM for have been monks...)
On a serious and more OT note, if you genuinely feel an item makes playing a class pointless then either stick with your opinion and don't play that class, or rule-out the item. In all probably reality, a suit of brawling armour is highly unlikely to drop unless the DM puts one in, and if the armour doesn't exist in the system, it makes it exponentially harder for item crafters to fudge it (say the wizard wants to make a suit, he would have to research how it is made, and actually invent it if it would be the very first suit in your universe. IC/OC crossover aside, simply have the monk question his motives in character, great roleplay point people!)
Also... All this just to avoid being disarmed? Did all the fighters suddenly forget about locked gauntlets?
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In point-buy, a monk suffers. why? Because he requires multiple high ability scores to be on par with the other Core classes. Yes, when rolling, a monk can be outstanding, if he breaks the probability wall and rolls high four or five times. Monks have to have those high stats to be 'broken' and 'over-the-top'.
Remember back in 1st edition? A monk required minimum ability scores of Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 11, and Wis 15 in order to be selected as a character. In point buy (with a Charisma of 8), that is 25 points. And that was the minimum ability scores.
Yes, if you have a monk character that starts out with Str 18, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 18, and Cha 10, he can be a force with which to be reckoned with. But in Pathfinder, that would be a point buy of 53 . . . and epic PB is 25 (after +2 for 1 stat, assuming human, half-elf, or half-orc).
If you roll, and you roll really, really well (or you fudge), monks as written in canon PF rules hold their own or excel up to the mid-teens with ease. They still struggle in the late teens. But with point-buy, where all characters are built on an equal basis? The monk suffers heavily.
MA
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If you just use very high point buy, MAD classes are ok. People just assume that allowing high point buy is somehow more broken than allowing spellcasters. I've shown this before, but once again:
Human Wizard
starting stats: Str 7, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 7, Cha 7
What point buy did he use?
Answer: FIFTEEN!
That is a completely viable character, with casting stat maxed the F out, too. Any point buy beyond that just lets him shore up those 7's in non-useful stats a bit, or pump dex or con a little higher.
Extremely high point buy helps MAD characters, but does not noticeabely empower single-stat dependent classes, like wizard. And since in general MAD classes are weaker and SAD classes are stronger, using very high point buys improves game balance rather than wrecking it. So many people seem to think it does the latter, it's really annoying.
(And of course, monk has many problems besides just being MAD. Just saying high PB can and does make MAD less or a problem without hurting the game.)