Tiny grapplers

[Shadowdweller]

So, I'm contemplating throwing some tiny little creatures at my PCs next week that happen to have the Grab special attack. So, I get that Grab does NOT work on creatures of greater size. But in reviewing the ruleset, I noticed something:

I seem to recall a rule somewhere (possibly 3.x instead of Pathfinder) that creatures cannot GRAPPLE others of larger size - but I cannot seem anything like this at present. So the question is: Am I reading correctly that a tiny monster would still be able to grapple something larger, just not by using the Grab special (i.e. by taking a standard action to grapple instead of doing so by natural weapon)? If so, would they still receive the +4 bonus on grapple checks by having the Grab special attack even if they technically cannot use said ability?

[blackbloodtroll]

The size restriction of grapple does not exist in Pathfinder.
A series of bonuses and penalties to CMB and CMD represent the size differences.

[Evil Lincoln]

From my houserules:

Cling
By the rules as written, you can still grapple Huge and larger creatures, but I am replacing that with these rules which make more sense to me. If you still want to grapple a giant as per the rules, that's fine. I think this is cooler though.

Clinging is a combat maneuver for "grappling" any creature two or more size categories larger than yourself. You attempt a Clinging Maneuver using your CMB, Acrobatics, or Climb check, vs. the target's CMD. All modifiers that affect attack rolls affect this check. If you make the cling attempt by dropping down on the giant opponent from above, you gain a +10 to the initial cling check.

If you succeed on the initial check, you are clinging. You count as grappled, but your opponent does not and is not impeded in any way. You may attack a creature you are clinging to (as per the normal grappling rules) or you may attempt to move to a point where the target creature cannot attack you. This is something like "pinning"; you make another check on your turn at a +5. If you succeed at this check, you gain the "Hidden" condition vs. the target creature. (Hidden: +2 to attack rolls, no dex to AC, no line of site)

The creature may attack you normally if you are not hidden. Even if you are hidden, the creature can try to shake you off with a standard action. This forces another CMB, Acrobatics, or Climb check for the clinging character. Failure causes the character to be flung (as per dropping from the Snatch monster feat).
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This was adapted from similar rules found in the houserule forum.

[blackbloodtroll]

This is a good example of what you want.

[Gobo Horde]

@bbt
How the heck does a diminutive hand 'crawl' along the ground with a 40 ft movement o.O Thats faster than my character can move, and im full size! Thats some fast fingers!

[blackbloodtroll]

Addams Family: Thing.

[Axolotl]

Hold me closely, tiny grappler...

Sorry, just had to sing that.

[Pendin Fust]

Thanks for that houserule Evil Lincoln. I'm going to propose that to my table.

[threemilechild]

More like The Beast With Five Fingers. Thing was nice!

And to the OP, yes, the creature with Grab would still get the +4 bonus on grapple checks to start or maintain even if it can't use Grab because of size. I don't know if your tiny grabby creatures have class levels, but if they're smart enough and the feats for it, that would still stack with Improved Grapple's bonuses.

[Wriggle Wyrm]

Your best bet would probably be to go with something with class levels, high dex and the Agile Maneuvers feat. Your little critters probably won’t be choking out a barbarian or a high strength fighter but should be more than capable of giving the rest of the party a run for their money.

Off the top of my head, Grigs would be a good choice. They have naturally high dexterity (in addition to the bonus gained from class levels) and can avoid attacks of opportunity with invisibility.

[blackbloodtroll]

Evil Dead series has great examples of why the Crawling Hand makes a great little grappler.
If you do not like the flavor of it, then reflavor it.
You could even change it's type, or add the Advanced Template.

[El Baron de los Banditos]

Axolotl wrote:

Hold me closely, tiny grappler...

Sorry, just had to sing that.

I am so glad I'm not the only one who thought/sang that after reading the topic title.