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Title says it all.......
From the Whip Section:
A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
From the Scorpion Whip Section:
It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
...so does the bolded part of the Whip Section apply to the Scorpion Whip or not.
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If you are using a Scorpion Whip and ARE prof. with it, then YES you can use it as a whip, which like the ouroboros, will eat it's own tail by subjecting you to ALL the drawbacks above as a standard whip above.
So yes the bold sections of 'whip' apply to Scorpion Whip, if you use a SW as a whip, as it specifically says so as part of the SW description.
I think what it means is that if you are proficient in a whip, you don't need to spend the exotic weapon proficiency on a scorpion whip. A little muddy language but that's what I gain from it.
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I think what it means is that if you are proficient in a whip, you don't need to spend the exotic weapon proficiency on a scorpion whip. A little muddy language but that's what I gain from it.
If you have whips via a class feature or EWP, you don't get the Scorpion Whip for free and vice versa.
You'd need both EWP feats to utilize a SW in both fashions, as a whip, and as a SW.
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
As it is treated as a whip with whip proficiency i'd say no.....if you used a feat to gain proficiency with specifically the "scorpion whip" than i'd say sure since you aren't using your normal whip proficiency, and therefore it is not treated as a normal whip
but that's just my opinion
Scorpion Whips are not 'treated' as whips, they have their own rules and no where does it say 'treat this as a whip.'
However, They are light exotic weapons, that happen to be able to be 'used' as a whip can be used. I.E. everything good and bad about a whip applies to that scorpion whip at that time, when they decide to use it like a whip.
Confused? Me too!
Here's my flowchart:
Whip:
[li]15' reach, though you don't threaten that area, and you can attack anything in range, including 5'.
[li]Nonlethal damage to armored opponents, or creatures with +3 or better Natural armor.
[li]You provoke AOOs from melee enemies if used, as a ranged weapon normally would.
[li]It's Finessable.
Scorpion Whip:
A.> Used as a scorpion whip.
[li]It has a 10' reach, deals lethal damage, but cant be used in 5' as a standard reach weapon.
[li]Does not provoke in melee, but you cannot attack with it in melee either. You need to target an enemy 10' away.
[li]performance
[li](plus disarm, reach, and trip if you are proficient with whip.) note: you don't get whip automatically by taking EWP: scorpion Whips
or
B.> As whip see above.
The scorpion whip works like any other melee weapon. It just is a weapon of the 'whip' type, which means that if you are proficient with a whip, you also are proficient with a scorpion whip. The sentence you are referring to only relates to the issue of proficiency, but nothing else.
I guess that's why people want the language of the weapon cleared up. We've got two different ideas behind how the weapon works and either of them could be right...
Title says it all.......
Except for which Scorpion Whip you're asking about. It sounds like your except is from Ultimate Combat.
My best guess, from the rules is:
Use the UC Scorpion Whip normally: light 1d4 slashing performance. No reach, no disarm, etc. Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip) only changes the -4 non-proficiency penalty.
If (and only if) you are proficient with a whip, you can use the scorpion whip in all ways as if it were a whip. Provokes, doesn't threaten, has reach, disarm, trip, etc. Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip) has no effect here.
James' take on it is a bit different:
Yup; if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do.James, in one of my games here on the boards, there's some confusion with the Scorpion Whip from Ultimate Combat.
This line is the cause of said confusion: If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
Does this mean if you are proficient with a whip, you are also proficient with a scorpion whip? or does it mean that if you can use a whip and scorpion whip, you can perform trip and disarm attempts with the scorpion whip, which according to the weapons chart appears you can not do normally??
This makes it sound like there's only a shared proficiency. Meaning if you have either Weapon Proficiency (scorpion whip) OR Weapon Proficiency (whip) then you can use a scorpion whip without non-proficiency penalty. Regardless of proficiency, the scorpion whip is always is a light 1d4 slashing performance weapon and never has reach, trip, disarm, etc.
Personally, I would just use the Scorpion Whip from Adventurer's Armory, it functions in all ways like a whip, only better.
Here's a thread with FAQ requests, if you're interested.
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The scorpion whip works like any other melee weapon. It just is a weapon of the 'whip' type, which means that if you are proficient with a whip, you also are proficient with a scorpion whip. The sentence you are referring to only relates to the issue of proficiency, but nothing else.
No it doesn't, or why ever train in Exotic WP: (Whip), when Exotic WP: (Scorpion Whip) gives you both?
Just because it's named similar doesn't make it a similar weapon. If it's name was Scorpions Tail, would that still hold true?
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Maybe treated wasn't the right word, but I meant it is considered a whip for sake of proficiency. I'd figure it'd work like an unarmed strike without the improved unarmed strike feat....where you only deal non-lethal such as a whip being a non-lethal weapon. But again that's just my opinion thinking about it, at least as far as AoO's are concerned. As for threatening i'd probably say no re-thinking it, but I would still say it would at least remove the provoking.
I disagree.
It is not considered a 'whip' for proficiency sake, just like a Bastard Sword is not a 'Long Sword' for proficiency sake. Both items are 2 different entities with pros and cons each.
Sorry, that isn't how it reads, nor anywhere I can find RAW.
Maybe treated wasn't the right word, but I meant it is considered a whip for sake of proficiency. I'd figure it'd work like an unarmed strike without the improved unarmed strike feat....where you only deal non-lethal such as a whip being a non-lethal weapon. But again that's just my opinion thinking about it, at least as far as AoO's are concerned. As for threatening i'd probably say no re-thinking it, but I would still say it would at least remove the provoking.I disagree.
It is not considered a 'whip' for proficiency sake, just like a Bastard Sword is not a 'Long Sword' for proficiency sake. Both items are 2 different entities with pros and cons each.
Sorry, that isn't how it reads, nor anywhere I can find RAW.
Except a bastard sword doesn't say to treat it like a longsword. It merely says that you can use it as a martial weapon if you wield it two-handedly. If it had the same wording as the scorpion whip, it'd probably be just as confusing.
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Except a bastard sword doesn't say to treat it like a longsword. It merely says that you can use it as a martial weapon if you wield it two-handedly. If it had the same wording as the scorpion whip, it'd probably be just as confusing.Maybe treated wasn't the right word, but I meant it is considered a whip for sake of proficiency. I'd figure it'd work like an unarmed strike without the improved unarmed strike feat....where you only deal non-lethal such as a whip being a non-lethal weapon. But again that's just my opinion thinking about it, at least as far as AoO's are concerned. As for threatening i'd probably say no re-thinking it, but I would still say it would at least remove the provoking.I disagree.
It is not considered a 'whip' for proficiency sake, just like a Bastard Sword is not a 'Long Sword' for proficiency sake. Both items are 2 different entities with pros and cons each.
Sorry, that isn't how it reads, nor anywhere I can find RAW.
Using your same argument, a scorpion whip also does not say to treat this like a whip, i.e. the special description and abilites of the whip. Obviously not the "method of snapping it into an enemy."
Here's my argument spelled out more clearly:
Whip, Scorpion
This whip has a series of razorsharp blades and fangs inset along its tip.
Benefit: It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
Weapon Feature(s): performance (plus disarm, reach, and trip if you are proficient with whip.)
lets say you are NOT proficient with whips, you only used a feat to buy the EWP: Scorpion, Whip here is what you are left with:
Whip, Scorpion
This whip has a series of razorsharp blades and fangs inset along its tip.
Benefit: It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses.
Weapon Feature(s): performance
Now, using RAW, and what you see here. Where does it state it operates like a whip?
On the topic of whip proficiencies, and using Hero Lab, I can't even find a proficiency for "Scorpion Whip" (or Whip, Scorpion as it would put it) specifically. It has "Whip", "Whip, Nine-Section", and "Whip, Training". This also seems to match with what Creative Director James is quoted as saying in Grick's post.
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In Ultimate Combat it says:
Scorpion Whip: This whip has a series of razor-sharp
lades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage,
even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
It is still, as far as I can see, an Exotic Weapon in it's own right, and assuming you are NOT proficient in whips, is NOT treated as a whip.
Feel free to prove me wrong via RAW if you find some other source though.
I think we need to wait for an official response from Paizo to answer the proficiency question. As for Reach, and this surprises me... Ultimate Combat's Exotic Weapons table has a range on Scorpion Whip as "--", which in all other cases, would mean 5 foot range (Page 145 if anyone wants to confirm this).
There's nothing in RAW to prove it either way, just conjecture on both sides. On one hand, the description does say "If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip." But on the other hand, it also doesn't confirm there is no "Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Scorpion Whip".
As for another source (again, not RAW, but as close as I can find), there is... this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip- scorpion.
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The Scorpion Whip is listed in UC as an Exotic light weapon, but I didn't notice it had a range of "-" listed.
Though that does make me want to do a 180 and say, it's indeed a whip variant, with special rules and ways it can be used if you are trained in whip. I think it best to say "I'm probably wrong" here, and that a whip is a whip is a whip.
:)
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If you have the correct feats, can use it as a Scorpion Whip, and a Whip, at the same time?
If not, what kind of action is it to switch to "whip mode"?
Would Weapon Focus(Whip) apply to a Scorpion whip?
If used as a Whip, does it still damage armored foes, or deal nonlethal damage?
Do the various Whip feats apply when wielding a Scorpion Whip, as a Whip?
Do various traits that interact with Whips apply to Scorpion Whips, when wielded as a Whip?
If you want answers you could post this question in the Ask JJ thread.
It would have been great if they used Ultimate Equipment as an opportunity to clear this issue up, as well as many others.
But most of the mundane gear section in the new book is just cut and paste, warts and all.
The magic item section and loot tables are better, but that's apparently at the expense of the mundane items. If they were more clear that magic items were the focus of the book, I would have cancelled my subscription... but oh well. I just look at the money they got for the Ultimate Equipment book and the character portfolio as my donation to a great company I still want to support. ;)
I thought of the Beginner Box in the same way. *shrug*
I'll take the good with the bad though. I never expected the Advanced Race Guide to be as good as it was.... that was definitely a great surprise!
Did you even read it? ITS A WHIP! therefore- ALL whip info applies. It is only telling you that the special difference for the scorpion whip is its ability to do lethal even through magic armor
This is what I've always thought and every person I've ever gamed with has thought the same. The only difference between a scorpion whip and a regular whip is the fact that it does lethal damage and the whole performance thing. I'm not saying it's RAW or RAI, but I don;t ever try and get into the semantics of simple isht.
So, you think it deal nonlethal when wielded as a whip?
I think it does lethal all the time. How can you whip someone with a barbed whip and not do lethal damage (unless you have a feat to do it) . I just try to apply some common sense at times and not rely on imperfect or unclear rules/ design decisions
Same thing as longbow > composite longbow. One gets you proficiency with the other. The scorpion whip is just better
Sometimes RAW, and even clarifications for parts of it defy common sense.
It's something we all have to accept.
They designed the game but they can't control how's it's played. At my table EWP (whip) gets you the same with scorpion whip and the 15ft reach, disarm, trip, etc.
So, when does count as a Whip, and when does it count as a Scorpion Whip?
Can they be used as both, at the same time?
If not, what kind of action is it to switch?
A whip is a whip, a scorpion whip is a scorpion whip. I really don't see the issue. They are identical except for lethal damage and performance
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So, you think it deal nonlethal when wielded as a whip?I think it does lethal all the time. How can you whip someone with a barbed whip and not do lethal damage (unless you have a feat to do it) . I just try to apply some common sense at times and not rely on imperfect or unclear rules/ design decisions
Same thing as longbow > composite longbow. One gets you proficiency with the other. The scorpion whip is just better
According to JJ, if you use it like a whip it still does lethal damage, but if you use it 'as a whip' on someone with +1 AC, or +3 NA, it does nothing at all, like a whip.
More confusion for ya :)
According to JJ, if you use it like a whip it still does lethal damage, but if you use it 'as a whip' on someone with +1 AC, or +3 NA, it does nothing at all, like a whip.
More confusion for ya :)
Yeah, I kind of addressed that earlier. Much respect to the game crew, but this is ridiculous. "In my games and all the ones I've played in" a scorpion whip is interchangeable with a whip and all associated feats. It just happens to do lethal damage, be light, performance, etc.
So whip mastery would allow to use a scorpion whip against adjacent opponents and not provoke AND do lethal damage. Essentially, no one uses a whip, once they get a hold of a scorpion whip.
Ultimate Equipment drops in six days... I wouldn't sweat the scorpion whip until then, as there's a good chance it will be updated in there.
Ultimate Equipment drops in six days... I wouldn't sweat the scorpion whip until then, as there's a good chance it will be updated in there.
NOT a good chance, at all, especially if you read my previous post.
Subscribers like me have had the Ultimate Equipment PDF for a while now, and trust me... Paizo did NOTHING to update any of the mundane arms and armor, nor did they add anything new.
The weapons and armor sections are literally cut and paste from previous books... this includes the scorpion whip, which has the crappy and confusing UC version ported over.
The attitude seems to be that they wanted to focus on the magic gear... but in doing so, they basically ignored the mundane stuff. They missed a GOLDEN opportunity to clean a lot of weapons up and introduce errata, but they didn't.
Essentially, no one uses a whip, once they get a hold of a scorpion whip.Which is why I don't like it. Just like the gladius. As soon as that came out, my ranger picked one up and dumped the obsolete short sword.
If anything, I would make people take the EWP even on top of the regular whip, but that would be a stretch too. Otherwise, why would anyone ever use a whip
NOT a good chance, at all, especially if you read my previous post.Subscribers like me have had the Ultimate Equipment PDF for a while now, and trust me... Paizo did NOTHING to update any of the mundane arms and armor, nor did they add anything new.
The weapons and armor sections are literally cut and paste from previous books... this includes the scorpion whip, which has the crappy and confusing UC version ported over.
The attitude seems to be that they wanted to focus on the magic gear... but in doing so, they basically ignored the mundane stuff. They missed a GOLDEN opportunity to clean a lot of weapons up and introduce errata, but they didn't.
Oops, missed your earlier post. That has to be the most disappointing thing I've heard about a Paizo product in a long time; I really had high expectations for what UE's content would provide.
