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So ... I have this character concept ... that's based on Illusions.
There are some illusion spells that are capable of creating real thing with shadow substance, right?
So ... for example, if a person takes a real egg, and cracks it into an illusory frying pan over a camp fire.
Anywhoozle ... I was running this Illusionist idea around in my head, and I was wondering how this would work ... the whole make-something-appear -to-be-real type fella. A charlatan with real magic, sort of. A guy that can *really* make dreams come to life.
Or even nightmares?
An thoughts on an cool Illusionist build like this?
Shadow Conjuration mimics always a conjuration spell, which means that the frying pan you will create will be somewhat real, and therefore the eggs will be cooked.
The caster of an illusion spell automatically disbelieves it, which means that the egg will be in the pan, but you will see only a faint pan. Any other nearby will have to roll a Will save to either a) Fully believe it or b) recognize it as an illusion, but in both cases the eggs will be cooked.
You cannot use illusion spells with shadow conjuration, only conjuration ones.
remember, unless the illusion is directly affecting you at the time (shadow evocation: fireball, for example) you don't get the save automatically, it's only when you take the time to interact (be it carefully study, touch, lick, what have you) with the illusion that you get the save.
so everyone else will see a guy cooking an egg on a frying pan, unless they specifically take the time to determine whether the frying pan is real.
and yes, only shadow subschool spells can do that, the egg would just pass through a figment or phantasm. maybe not a glamer, depends on what the glamer is effecting.
I also suggest Shadow Gambit as an option to give you more variety with your illusory attacks.
I am inclined to say that the shadow egg couldn't nourish you... though I really don't have RAW support one way or the other. You can conjure water and drink it, and shadow conjuration is a weird in between 'real' conjuration and illusion.
It is magic though. Maybe you can shadow conjure an egg, close your eyes, and say "the egg is real and it will be delicious", and consume it for daily calories.
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Secret One ... While the egg in my original example was a real one, you make a good point.
I guess by a strict reading of the spell, the egg could be as much as 40% real from shadowstuff, but 100% real to those who believe it. One could have actual nourishment from a shadow egg.
I just thought of another example that goes thematically with what I am going for. The movie "Hook", with Robin Williams. In it they have a table filled with Neverland imaginary food, and Peter has to believe in it in order to eat. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for ... Illusions becoming real. Illusions that can "act" in the real world and have real effects.
Thanks folks, for the suggestions, keep 'me coming!!!
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and yes, only shadow subschool spells can do that, the egg would just pass through a figment or phantasm. maybe not a glamer, depends on what the glamer is effecting.
I also suggest Shadow Gambit as an option to give you more variety with your illusory attacks.
Schweet!! THAT is *SO* what I am looking for, Karjak!!
That's precisely the kind of mechanics that support this theory of mine! I wanna be able to make illusions (even figments!) become real!! I hadn't ever seen this feat, and it works great! \The only proviso that I can see is that, because of the specifc language of the feat, I can see it being a point of debate whether the Shadow Gambit can make anything be "real" other than an attack. I can't help but wonder if there were anything similar to that in any other book that worked in any other way other than attacking. I couldn't understand why there wouldn't be, but, meh, you know.
Thanks for a great reference ... you can bet that I am definitely looking to build this illusionist, now!
Unfortunately, you cannot choose to fail the will save of your own illusions, as you have irrefutable proof they are just that: illusions.
You never get a save in the first place.
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The caster of an illusion spell automatically disbelieves it ...
Unfortunately, you cannot choose to fail the will save of your own illusions, as you have irrefutable proof they are just that: illusions.
You never get a save in the first place.]/quote]
I'm sorry ... I can't seem to find either of these statements in the Core Rules, anywhere.
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.I realize that in that in those passages, there is a line about a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real, but the fact remains that the illusions in discussion here are real - or are at least somewhat so. There are very real effects being adjudicated, and there is physical substance to them. That alone gives reason for a saving throw.
Even with that aside, I still submit that no where in the rules does it say that the caster automatically disbelieves. If the caster chooses to believe in his own illusions, I don't see any reason why he would not be allowed to voluntarily fail the save, as per the above quoted rule. Much as if a creature with fire immunity, they can lower that immunity. Even an elf can voluntarily sleep. Even if a caster would normally be considered impervious to his own illusions, they could choose to lower that ability.
Otherwise, a character would have to make a saving throw against every single cure spell cast on them. But, a caster or anyone else, can choose to allow the healing to be done to them.
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Objects automatically make their saves against shadow conjuration, so the egg doesn't "believe in" the pan. However, even on a successful save a shadow conjuration is one-fifth real. I'd say your DM would get to rule whether a one-fifth real frying pan is real enough to cook an egg.
RAW, other people could voluntarily fail their saves against your illusions in order to use your shadow conjurations as normal objects. This is assuming that knowing you play tricks with shadow conjuration doesn't count as "irrefutable proof" for these creatures. In that case, it might be enough to sometimes give them real objects along with shadow objects in order to keep them guessing.
Cool idea. I'd talk to your DM and see what he'd let you do with it.
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Hmm ... That's an interesting point the both of you make. I would've thought an object wouldn't get a save for disbelief, let alone make it automatically. Learn something new every day.
Would y'all mind if I ask where I can find that so that I can discuss it with my GM? [edit: ... NVM .... I just found it in the spell description.]. On that note actually, I may have to take a similar discussion to the PFS boards, since Mike Brock is my GM! ;)
Although, funny thing .... The egg wouldn't necessarily have a percent chance of being cooked. It's GONNA get cooked ... The only question would be whether it cooks in the frying pan, or in the fire. [wink]
Although, that brings up a whole other point .... What if the cookfire were illusionary as well? I guess that's where Shadow Gambit comes in ... Making the fire actually burn.
Thanks for these tips, guys! Keep it coming!
I realize that in that in those passages, there is a line about a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real, but the fact remains that the illusions in discussion here are real - or are at least somewhat so. There are very real effects being adjudicated, and there is physical substance to them. That alone gives reason for a saving throw.
Oh, [shadow] illusions are indeed partially real, but the caster is still aware of that. So no save, and the spell only functions for its limited percentage.
Even with that aside, I still submit that no where in the rules does it say that the caster automatically disbelieves.
Oh, you're quite right. It doesn't say that anywhere. But really: are you saying that a caster can bend the forces of the Cosmos to his will... and then pretend he forgot the details?
If the caster chooses to believe in his own illusions, I don't see any reason why he would not be allowed to voluntarily fail the save, as per the above quoted rule.
If a caster chooses to believe his own illusions, he's an idiot. What's next: believing he can fly? It doesn't say anywhere in the rules he can't. ;)
Don't get me wrong: I personally hate this logic. Per (my interpretation of) the rules, an illusionist can't even see most of his own spells, how stupid is that? But the existence of the Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation line of spells makes it a necessity.
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A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.(...)
Much as if a creature with fire immunity, they can lower that immunity. Even an elf can voluntarily sleep.
If suppressing a resistance to magic includes allowing a sleep effect to work on elves, then I know a half-elven PC who didn't need to spend six days in a sensory deprivation box. I have some reservations, though.
First, a resistance is not the same thing as an immunity. Suppressing an imperfect resistance feels a lot like voluntarily failing a save in that it's possible for the thing to affect you and it's possible for it to not affect you, and you're choosing for it to affect you. However, it is not generally possible for someone with a flat immunity to be affected by the thing they are immune to. Therefore, you don't necessarily get a choice to allow it to affect you.
Secondly, the description just refers to a resistance to magic. So even if it's possible for an elf to allow themselves to be voluntarily affected by magical sleep (for example, in lieu of a sensory deprivation box) it should not be possible for a fire elemental to voluntarily drop its fire immunity. Fire elementals aren't immune to magical fire effects, they're immune to fire.
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Hmm ... alright, good points. I agree that a creature couldn't supress their fire immunity, because it's energy, not magic.
I would still submit that, yes, an elf could surpress their immunity to magical sleep. (Though I'm not reading the precise wording of their racial ability at the moment, and specific language could well change that.
Although ... I'm not sure what a Sensory Deprivation Tank is doing in a fantasy game, but, okay! :) <friendly laughter>
VRMH ... i'm not saying that an illusionist can bend the forces of the Cosmos, or whatever. Let alone "forget" any of it. In all reality, other than Shadow spells, illusions don't actually bend anything, anyway. They only make someone think something is going on. (or not going on as the illusion is described.). If an Illusionist wanted to believe he was flying (when he's actually just running around on the ground with his arms spread wide), I think that he should be able to. It might be a little silly and comical, but, that's the kind of thing that I am going for ... making dreams (and nightmares) seem to become reality. Almost like he's watching a personal video of him flying. He's watching the greatest movie ever! Or someone else could believe that he's flying, even though he's not actually up there, and he's safely hiding on the ground.
Oh, [shadow] illusions are indeed partially real, but the caster is still aware of that. So no save, and the spell only functions for its limited percentage.
I'm not following your reasoning here. The spellcaster knows that illusions can affect reality, and be completely real, feel real and do real damage, and you're saying that's grounds for not getting a save? There's a possibility, in theory, that it could go either way whether a PC could believe it or not, and that is practically what the definition of a saving throw is. It's the roll that determines whether it's disbelieved or not. Even with evidence, they still make a saving throw. But, the text even says that it's not "needed". It doesn't say that it removes the possibility of a saving throw, just that they don't "need" to make one. If the person chose to forego that benefit, there's nothing that says they aren't allowed to make that choice - that's what voluntariy failing a save is all about.
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Also, since objects automatically succeed their will saves vs. the spell, said egg will either take longer to cook than it would over a regular fire or only have a chance of becoming cooked, depending on whether your GM treats cooking like taking damage or like acquiring a condition.
Hey, wow, Emmit ... thanks for bringing this one up ... I had tried to ponder this one, myself too!
I can only think that a DM would describe cooking as doing damage, because it's the heat of the fire that's making the egg cook (essentially controlling how burnt an ingredient gets, and how fast).tha being said, I think that the egg would actually cook faster, since it would only have 20% or 40% of the egg's normal HP. Thus, the egg would be completely burnt 60 to 80% faster than a "real" egg would be.
I can see the point either way, though ... you're essentially saying that - for example - if it takes 6 points of fire damage to fry an egg, it would take an illusion-egg longer to achieve that total, I think. Whereas the obverse side of that point would be that an egg is fried when it's HP are all gone, regardless of its total.
Wow ... this discussion has certainly taken an odd turn! hahahaha! <friendly laughter>
If someone told me I'd be having a conversation about illusory cooking, I'd have ... disbelieved ... them!! Wacka, wacka, wacka!!
Secret One ... While the egg in my original example was a real one, you make a good point.
I guess by a strict reading of the spell, the egg could be as much as 40% real from shadowstuff, but 100% real to those who believe it. One could have actual nourishment from a shadow egg.I just thought of another example that goes thematically with what I am going for. The movie "Hook", with Robin Williams. In it they have a table filled with Neverland imaginary food, and Peter has to believe in it in order to eat. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for ... Illusions becoming real. Illusions that can "act" in the real world and have real effects.
Thanks folks, for the suggestions, keep 'me coming!!!
Ah crap. Was early in the morning totally misread the original question.
Didn't think about the auto-disbelieve... but by technical RAW, "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw" could maybe still don't need it, but can still do it...
I mean, if you shadow conjured a dagger (one of them ultimate magic spells) for yourself, it wouldn't slip through your hand 80% of the time would it? Or as other shadow conjuration, it is still a very solid thing with 1/5 the hit points.
Is a shadow wall not there 80% of the time, or it like shadow creatures, and have 1/5 the hit points if you know it's a shadow? Point being that first case, the shadow bridge will support you even if you know it's fake, the pan will fry an egg, both just being more fragile. Rather than stuff falling through them 80% of the time. The shadow egg will just be easier to chew.
(I am working with the premise that the normal egg being fried is an 'attended object').
We're not talking about illusionary cooking- we're talking about quasi-real culinary arts with extra-dimensional energy.
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We're not talking about illusionary cooking- we're talking about quasi-real culinary arts with extra-dimensional energy.
HAH HA!! LOL!! LMFAO!! <takes a deep breath> Seriously ... I cracked up when I read that. Seldom have I read anything more hilarious. That's just ... :D That's a great one. I swear, I am going to quote that one day IRL at a game - or soem close variant of it.
I think that I would generally agree with you about the objects simply having less hit points than normal. The only thing that troubles me is the line that says, "Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work. I don't really understand what that means. Obviously a weapon or something would only hit 20 to 40% of the time depending on the version of the spell, but would that apply to a pan and/or egg?
Things that just have effects, like stunning, poisoning, dazzling, etc only work 20-40% of the time. Creatures, objects, and forms of energy only have or deal 20-40% of the normal hit points, respectively.
A shadow conjured wolf, even if disbelieved, still takes up space. If it bites you, it only does a fraction of the damage instead of just misses a percent of the time. If it hurts you and tries to trip you, it has a fraction of a chance of being successful (beyond the whole CMB test).
Your pan is easier to break, if you know it's just a shadow, and likewise the egg could be very simply broken. If you threw said shadow egg in someone's face as a dirty trick, if they disbelieved it, it would only have a 20% chance of blinding them. They could still eat it.
Throw a shadow fireball at a wall with some chairs around, it will still hit, and explode the chairs, but only for a fraction of the damage. Note objects auto-save, but the save doesn't completely negate the shadow, just reduces it dramatically. Combined with hardness, walls and doors will be hard to break, but it's still plenty to burn some papers or table. So with a big enough shadow, you can still break and destroy objects.
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Although ... I'm not sure what a Sensory Deprivation Tank is doing in a fantasy game, but, okay! :) <friendly laughter>
It was a sealed, soundproof, lightless box. Not a perfect sensory deprivation tank, but close enough to drive the unfortunate half-elf a little nutty.
Hmm ... alright, good points. I agree that a creature couldn't supress their fire immunity, because it's energy, not magic.
I would still submit that, yes, an elf could surpress their immunity to magical sleep. (Though I'm not reading the precise wording of their racial ability at the moment, and specific language could well change that.
The wording is that they are "immune to magic sleep effects" (not "immune to sleep"), which means it's a special immunity to magic and if you can drop an immunity to magic and not just a resistance, an elf can be voluntarily affected by sleep. An immunity probably counts as a magical resistance, but because of the distinction I mentioned above it's not a given. In this case, I'd refer to the DM.
I'd also refer to the DM regarding most of what you want your shadow conjuration to do. It's a very creative idea that was not detailed in the rules aside from the explanation that shadow illusions are 20%+ real (which is a good place to start). When the rules are insufficient, it's the DM's job to figure out how an idea should work to help everyone best enjoy the game. That's one of the many advantages to playing Pathfinder or other tabletop RPGs over an MMO - most DMs have more creative programming.