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I see no problems here. All you are doing is replicating the Greater Magic Weapon Spell but with a constant duration and it bypasses DR normally. At 20th level GMW gives a +5 enhancement bonus to a weapon that lasts for 20hours.
- Gauss
As a dm i'd never allow custom items to just be for sale in a shop but if you can find a level 20 caster to make it for you then it would be legal i think.
A Blackblade Magus doesn't even need to spend that much money for a +5 weapon ;)
Carn, my point is that it is not much different than Greater Magic Weapon also cast by the Magus at level 20. This effectively gives you a free 3rd level spell per day (albeit, with a longer duration). Since it starts at level 10 we are basically talking about the equivalent of a 3rd level spell with a bit more than 1 extend metamagic applied.
So for a special ability you are basically gaining an extended GMW each day. A 4th level spell equivalent.
GMW can also be applied to a weapon with special properties.
- Gauss
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Carn, my point is that it is not much different than Greater Magic Weapon also cast by the Magus at level 20. This effectively gives you a free 3rd level spell per day (albeit, with a longer duration). Since it starts at level 10 we are basically talking about the equivalent of a 3rd level spell with a bit more than 1 extend metamagic applied.
So for a special ability you are basically gaining an extended GMW each day. A 4th level spell equivalent.
GMW can also be applied to a weapon with special properties.
- Gauss
I think you're missing the point, Gauss. He's saying this is available at level 10, not 20. Huge difference there.
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Ahhh I see the problem, yes. I missed that this is based on the staff's caster level and not the magus' caster level. My apologies.
Ultimately, I don't see that as a problem either. The CRB states that high level magics are typically unavailable. I could easily see this applied to magic items with high caster levels. IE: good luck finding a 20th caster level item without seeing a high level mage.
Unfortunately that puts it in GM Fiat territory. If the GM says: "no, I am not giving you a level 20 item at level 10 even if it does only cost 8000gp" then you need to wait until it is level appropriate. Since you are commissioning this it requires actually finding the Caster level 20 NPC to make it.
- Gauss
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I think you're missing the point, Gauss. He's saying this is available at level 10, not 20. Huge difference there.It's not all that big a deal when you think about it.
A 9th level normal magus burns a point of his pool and makes a +2 scimitar into a +5 one. It has a better crit range, etc.
The staff magus gets to use his class ability. Let him enjoy it.
-James
Yeah I agree. Staff Maguses aren't OP, even with this.
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nitpicking such an item doesn't seem to be RAI.
The availibility of an item is in regards of price, but a higher caster level is supposed to create higher priced item.
Do you really expect a lvl 20 caster to be found in a smallish city? Then only 3 charges? Staffs are always created with 10 charges (full), so finding something used is even rarer.
And something this "senseless" would be near impossible. Except for that archetype, who would actually use that staff for its spell?
I would houserule that something like that has to be custom made, and would cost a bit more for that reason. So it will probably have to be a quest reward as lvl 20 PC-classes have a high probability of being quest-givers I assume.
From the balanced point of view its not "broken" (yep, some people want to get the torches when seeing that word) but it is highly questionable. But if you got a witch with slumber and a wizard casting black tentacles at the beginning of every encounter, than I guess you can also have such a staff.
Man I can smell the cheese from here this may be within the rules but way outside the spirit of the game
I mean what 20th lvl mage is going to spend that much money to make a staff that can be used to cast a first lvl spell
A grand total of 3 times it's a pointless thing to make now if the player could get a 20th lvl mage to make one then that's diffrent
But still cheeser than a 3 cheese pizza
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@carn
you wanted to know about RAI, and I told what I think the intention was. You give me counterarguments by RAW, and you know RAW, and nobody is arguing it.
I know that the price of the caster lvl is factored in, but for potions the assumption is that the caster lvl is the minimum possible to create it. I believe the availibility of items per city is based on that and will break down otherwise.
Also I don't believe that everything is custom made. I bet there are a lot of clerics out there creating wands of cure light wounds in advance because most adventurer groups don't want to wait or have you ever waited for an NPC vendor to create such an item for you?
The same goes for +1 daggers and similar items.
And rules of thumb like "items below price X are normally available" are there for the GM to apply, the item you ask for is not normal.
If the magus has a crafter in his party that is roughly the same lvl as him, then this is perfectly RAI I believe.
Carn: I would state what LazarX stated but he already said it.
In order to get a custom item you must first find someone to make it. That places it in the same realm as finding a spellcaster to cast spells for you.
In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn’t guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.
Thus, finding someone to make your staff is not guaranteed. It could be an adventure in itself. There are no 20th level staves in either the CRB or the APG so you cannot simply just find one via the normal rules on buying equipment.
James: It IS a custom item. Any wand that has a caster level of 20 would also be a custom item. Only wands with a minimum caster level are standard items.
With that said, I do not think it is out of whack. As another already posted the standard Magus can do similar already.
- Gauss
Hmmm good point pad300. I shouldnt post just after I wake up. I forget things like that.
- Gauss
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@GaussCRB states that 16000 GP or cheaper items are avaible in metropolis 75% of the time. The "+5" flaming staff cost about 13000 GP.
Of course the GM can rule otherwise - he always can - but according to RAW lev 10 magus can get such staffs, if they just have 13 K GP and acess to a metropolis.
But it don't state that custom magic items are available at all.
you are not buying one of the standard magic items in one of the rulebooks, you are commissioning a specific item that no spellcaster has reason to build as he will already using his actual caster level with a staff, so there is no reason to craft it at level 20 if you are level 20. He will craft it at level 8, the minimum level for a staff.Then there is the little problem that you are crafting a staff with only one spell. That thing is called a wand. While it is not called outright by the magic item creation rules, the staves creation rules under Creating staves strongly imply that you must place 2+ spells in the staff.
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Do you really expect a lvl 20 caster to be found in a smallish city? Then only 3 charges?
The 3 charges is the charge cost to activate the staff spell. And item rules do not care about caster level, but about price.
At least RAW level 20 shield scrolls are avaible practically anywhere, as they cost 1000 GP.
Actually, RAW, level 20 shield scroll aren't normally available:
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
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Not particularly cheesy in pathfinder. Note that you don't have to have a caster level X to make an item with caster level X. You just have to add +5 to your spellcraft dc... So just about anyone can make this staff, assuming they have craft staff.Man I can smell the cheese from here this may be within the rules but way outside the spirit of the game
I mean what 20th lvl mage is going to spend that much money to make a staff that can be used to cast a first lvl spell
A grand total of 3 times it's a pointless thing to make now if the player could get a 20th lvl mage to make one then that's diffrent
But still cheeser than a 3 cheese pizza
That way you get the 4th level wizard that can make gems of wishes.
Have an happy game.|
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A decent source is the chapter 5 of the Game mastery Guide (and it is not in the PRD) where there are the tables to roll the random magic items in treasures. Pages 134-137 list the wands and a wand of magic missiles is available only in the Cl 1 version.
Another source are the rules for the Pathfinder society games. They are a bit more restrictive than the standard rules, but they are a good guideline:
All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If a spell appears at different levels on two different lists, use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example, poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of a 4th-level cleric spell. All potions, scrolls, and wands are available only at minimum caster level unless found at a higher caster level on a Chronicle sheet.
As a reward for a specific adventure you can find a wand, potion, ecc with a higher caster level than normal, but you can't purchase it from normal sources.
In a home game campaign rules can and should be more lenient, but this is a good guideline to start from.
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Is the RAI question really that hard? Has it somehow not been made imminently clear at what levels a character is expected to be able to make/afford +5 weapons?
The RAI question is difficult, because the one consequence cannot be intended (+3-5 items at lev 10 for cheap prices) and the other cannot be intended either (ok, creation rules are specific, lev 8 spell casting is available in metropolis and the RAI of PF item rules is "players should be able to buy magic items tailored towrads the PCs needs, as otherwise the high level monster will eat them too often", but we have to forget all that the moment a staff magus sets out to buy a staff and remember it again when a non staff magus wants to buy a staff).
My strong suspicion is that there is no RAI and GM is left to balance it out, bending some rules or at least the RAI behind.
Actually, RAI, for staff, is that they are as powerful as the caster using them.
You get to use all your DC increasing feats, your actual casting stat and your level if it is higher than the staff caster level,RAI is that a 10th level character will have approximately 62.000 gp in equipment and that a +5 weapon will cost 50.000 gp.
Getting a +5 weapon with other abilities (as your staff has already the ability to cast shield at level 20) for 5.300 gp is a bit questionable.
RAI, the staff magus ability is meant to allow him to get a bit more than the standard bonuses for a staff that he can afford at his level. It is meant to work in conjunction with his arcane pool ability to get a very good weapons for a few minutes every day, not to get an almost free +5 weapon.
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I'm saying it's cheesey because it relies on someone making an item which is pretty much usless for the price it costs when the same effect as the staff makes can be done with scrolls at a far lesser price so it's a pointless item
A Blackblade Magus doesn't even need to spend that much money for a +5 weapon ;)
I did a lot of work with the soulknife class when DSP were upgrading it to Pathfinder. Soulknife gets a free weapon, the soulblade, which is fully enhanced depending on level. It doesn't break the game at all, in terms of gaining 'free' gear.
Not particularly cheesy in pathfinder. Note that you don't have to have a caster level X to make an item with caster level X. You just have to add +5 to your spellcraft dc... So just about anyone can make this staff, assuming they have craft staff.Man I can smell the cheese from here this may be within the rules but way outside the spirit of the game
I mean what 20th lvl mage is going to spend that much money to make a staff that can be used to cast a first lvl spell
A grand total of 3 times it's a pointless thing to make now if the player could get a 20th lvl mage to make one then that's diffrent
But still cheeser than a 3 cheese pizzaThat way you get the 4th level wizard that can make gems of wishes.
Have an happy game.
Why does your 4th level character have that much money?
But read the FAQs. Any level character could make any item regardless of class. All they need is the feat, the money, the spellcraft and the time.
Without actually reading the material :
- is it possible to make a staff of shield using 10 charges for a single use for 800 gold instead or 1600 if buying it ?
@carn: Official FAQ
@Remco: It is theoretically possible. Whether it's actually possible or not depends on your GM. Normally, that'd be fine since you're spending 800 gp on what is almost a one-use item. (It takes 10 days and 10 spell slots to recharge a level 1 spell.) That this interacts strangely with the magus class features shouldn't hugely effect the price IMO, but I know that in this case most people would disagree.
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Not particularly cheesy in pathfinder. Note that you don't have to have a caster level X to make an item with caster level X. You just have to add +5 to your spellcraft dc... So just about anyone can make this staff, assuming they have craft staff.Man I can smell the cheese from here this may be within the rules but way outside the spirit of the game
I mean what 20th lvl mage is going to spend that much money to make a staff that can be used to cast a first lvl spell
A grand total of 3 times it's a pointless thing to make now if the player could get a 20th lvl mage to make one then that's diffrent
But still cheeser than a 3 cheese pizzaThat way you get the 4th level wizard that can make gems of wishes.
Have an happy game.Why does your 4th level character have that much money?
But read the FAQs. Any level character could make any item regardless of class. All they need is the feat, the money, the spellcraft and the time.
1) almost any kingdom would have the needed money and would have a well pampered 4th level wizard working for them producing gems of unlimited wishes. About 1,5 millions gp and 4 years of works and the kingdom would have a gem capable to cast unlimited wishes. Even limiting it to 5 wish/day would be a good investment.
2) the FAQ say: "If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement." so it endorse making items with a CL higher than yours, but it is a great way to unbalance the game.
The DC to make an item is easy and only adding a +5 to create something above your caster level (plus the base DC of the item CL+5) allow people to make item that are grossly overpowered when compared to their normal abilities.
A use activate whetstone of greater magic weapon would cost 120.000 gp, have a DC of 25, +5 for overcasting: DC 30.
A "common" wizard with 18 stating intelligence and skill focus in spellcraft would be capable to make one at level 8 with ease (base int raised to 20, +2 int circlet = +6 for intelligence, +3 for the feat, +3 as it is a class skill, 8 rank in the skill = +20 skill bonus).
So your 4 party members chip in 15.000 gp each at level 8 and get to have all their weapons enchanted to +5 constantly, leaving the space for plenty of interesting enchantment on their weapons.
The same wizard would have to wait for another 12 levels before casting the same spell by hand.
And note that he is not really trying to push it. With the right trait/feat he could do the same thing at a way lower level.
Why learning the spell fireball? With a starting 20 intelligence I could craft a necklace of fireballs with 9 dice fireballs at level 3 with Craft wondrous items DC 24 (base DC 14, +5 for missing the spell and +5 for overcasting). How many level appropriate encounters I will overcome with that item?
As I don't really care about casting spells by hand I could be a alchemist or magus, benefiting from a better BAB, more hp, 2 good saves, armor use and nice abilities, all I need to do is put ranks in spellcraft. Or be a witch with all the handsome wizard and cleric spells stored in my trusty wondrous items.
Sure, the DC of the spells would be generally low, but who cares about ST when I can have a gemstone of unlimited enervation?
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@Diego
The PFS rule means that practically no wands, scrolls of summon monster 1, unerred strike and a few other level 1 spells should be available, because they are then just 1 round effects, which nobody would spend money on. There are lots of spells with duration 1 round/level and for these a higher caster level would practically be a must have if the item is supposed to be useful.Regarding RAI of standard pathfinder, is it realy meant, that in metropolis only those items less than 16000 GP are available easily, that are in some print and all the many other potential items with less than 16000 GP are not available?
E.g. no amulet of natural armor +2 (8000 GP) with mules cord added (1000 GP + 500 GP for additional ability), but only amulets of natural armor +2 or mules cords?
That would make item creation feats absolutely mandatory for each party.
Yes to both.
As I said, in a home game campaign you should be more lenient, but the item pricing and limits are based on the idea that you are using the slot to get the bonus.
Combination items will get out of hand fast if you can buy them at the market simply because they are within the price limit.
"There isn't a amulet of natural armor +2 with mule cord? Let's try for a girdle of strength +2 with mule cord. Found it. Now a amulet of natural armor +2 with that +2 to dexterity I wanted. There is one? No? Let's try another combo of the abilities I want."
If you can mix enough abilities you will find all the items you want.
One of the perks of taking the crafting feats is to get item tailored to what you want, not the standard "off the shelf" items. If you don't want to take the feat you can instead befriend the appropriate spellcasters in town and get to craft the items for you as special orders.
In one of the Kingmaker thread there a great example of a skewed reading of the item construction rules and item pricing. A "experienced" player conning a inexperienced GM into allowing him to buy a shirt of constant shield for his fighter at 2.000 gp (1 level spell, 1st level caster level).
The right price is 40.000 gp (Bonus squared x 2,500 gp [AC bonus, other]) plus at least another 2.50 for the protection from magic missiles (compared to brooch of shielding x 1.5 as he get it together with another item power). And even that is a low price.
Magic items are one of the thing that can break a game if you aren't careful with them.
@carn: Official FAQ
@Remco: It is theoretically possible. Whether it's actually possible or not depends on your GM. Normally, that'd be fine since you're spending 800 gp on what is almost a one-use item. (It takes 10 days and 10 spell slots to recharge a level 1 spell.) That this interacts strangely with the magus class features shouldn't hugely effect the price IMO, but I know that in this case most people would disagree.
I figure an errata that makes the enhancement based on the marketprice of the staff would be more suitable, while giving the magus incentive to invest in a staff rather than incentive to cheese his way to a cheap magic weapon.
I'd have the same value breakdown as a typical weapon and advance it beyond +5, for example :
2,000+ +1weapon
8,000+ +2weapon
18,000+ +3weapon
32,000+ +4weapon
50,000+ +5weapon
72,000+ +5weapon spellstoring
98,000+ +5weapon spellstoring, 'keen'
128,000+ +5weapon spellstoring, 'keen', thundering
162,000+ +5weapon spellstoring, 'keen', thundering, shocking
200,000+ +5weapon spellstoring, 'keen', thundering, shocking burst
For now it would have to be a houserule, I think this would actually encourage the magus to invest in a fancy staff to go with the archetype.
Remco, remember that he has his arcane pool point to spend to enhance the staff too, so using your table he can give a 50.000 gp staff a +10 enhancement between attack bonuses and special abilities .
True, maybe it needs some adjustment, it is supposed to be a little motivation to aactually buy a magic staff. Something that people rarely do because it is not the optimal choice, and the staff is not an optimal weapon. putting the enhancement bonus at the same line one could/would normally buy a (better) +5 weapon would prevent balance issues in my opinion. I was paying more attention to the power up steps than the powers themselves.
Smite (as staff of power, 1 charge)
spellstoring (only spells cast by the magus up to 3rd lvl)
increased threat range (19-20)
increase reach (1 charge/round)
increased base damage (1d8)
Not devastating but giving some incentive to get that ridiculousy expensive staff.. a standard magus can buy a +5 weapon, the staff magus doesnt get a better weapon but gets the staff abilities as a bonus. anyway it is a bit off topic for the rules section.