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So quick question here. Flurry of blows reads
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
and the sohei gains the ability to use FoB with a list of selected weapons via this ability:
Would this technically allow a sohei to apply his strength bonus to his attacks with a bow? I know it's pretty cheese, was just curious if RAW means what I think it does.
Would this technically allow a sohei to apply his strength bonus to his attacks with a bow?
I don't see why not.
(Avoiding the whole two-weapons to flurry thing)
You may only apply your Str bonus to a composite bow, but with the proper equipment : yes.
I think you missed the point.
A monk applies full str to every successful attack in a flurry of blows.
The sohei may flurry with a bow (or crossbow, or whatever).
Therefore, the sohei applies full str to every attack in a flurry of blows, even when using a non-composite bow, or a crossbow, or whatever.
I would say that sohei applies the strength bonus to the weapon if the weapon normally allows them to do so. The provision in the original flurry of blows only included monk weapons which all allowed - required in fact - the strength modifier to be applied to damage. The line about applying the full strength modifier was included to emphasise that which hand the weapon was in had no bearing on this as it would have done if you were using Two Weapon Fighting.
I would say the specific properties of the weapon override this line, just as they override the general rule of applying strength to damage in their specific instances.
I would say the specific properties of the weapon override this line, just as they override the general rule of applying strength to damage in their specific instances.
Are you saying a monk who flurries with both hands on a two-handed weapon gains 1.5xStr to damage?
Nope. The statement is clear on that one. I think this is just an instance where the flurry rules preceded the inclusion of weapons which cannot benefit from strength bonuses, and somebody forgot to include the exception in the sohei's description. Probably it never ocured to them that anyone would think it did.
Another way of looking at it is that a two handed weapon in a flurry (which, incidentally, is still up for discussion as to how it functions) cannot be used with as much force as normal because you are using it faster. I cannot see how a weapon like a bow or crossbow can allow any strength bonus to be applied if it isn't designed for it (as per the normal rules) be it in the hands of a monk or non-monk alike.
As an aside, if you want to argue black is white, watch out for zebra crossings. ;)
Nope. The statement is clear on that one.
Indeed it is. Since flurry says you get full strength to damage, you get full strength to damage even though the weapon you're using wouldn't normally get full strength to damage.
somebody forgot to include the exception in the sohei's description. Probably it never ocured to them that anyone would think it did.
They remembered to add it to the Zen Archer which was published two books earlier than UC.
a two handed weapon in a flurry (which, incidentally, is still up for discussion as to how it functions)
No more than any other weapon. If you're supposed to use two weapons you can use a two-handed weapon and a headbutt. That doesn't change the damage, since all attacks made with flurry of blows get full strength to damage. Not 1.5xStr, not 0xStr, only and always full strength.
Whatever - I know that when you make your mind up on your 'rulings' you never change it no matter how hyperbolic they are, so I won't waste my time arguing over it.
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There are a lot of exceptions in the Zen Archer, but the Zen Archer also gets a suite of abilities that the Sohei doesn't. The Zen Archer is also a pretty effective single stat character (after 3rd level) while the Sohei still needs a variety of decent stats, much like the core monk, but relinquishes just as many (I think maybe more) class abilities. It's kind of hard to argue intent here without someone who had a hand in the process chiming in.
In regards to the bows property overriding the Flurry power, I'm pretty certain the rule is "Specific overrides general" so this would be a pretty rare instance of a general rule "Bows don't add STR to their damage" overriding a specific one "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows".
As I stated, it's a bit cheese, and arguably not RAI, but it seems like everyone agrees it is RAW... For whatever that's worth. They're starting a PFS group up here, and I know a couple of the other players are pretty bad munchkins, so I was digging around for combos that are completely legit RAW but can stack up with some of the "classic" OP builds.
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Yeah, because having the full Strength bonus applied to flurry attacks with crossbows or a simple bow was obviously rules as intended.
With the sohei, probably the monk archetype needing the most clarification since zen archer. Or maybe you are assuming no current developer may make a mistake if their predecessors didn't.
I'm not the one missing the big point there.
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Yeah, because having the full Strength bonus applied to flurry attacks with crossbows or a simple bow was obviously rules as intended.
With the sohei, probably the monk archetype needing the most clarification since zen archer. Or maybe you are assuming no current developer may make a mistake if their predecessors didn't.I'm not the one missing the big point there.
Was that directed at me? I think I made it pretty clear that I was aware there was a distinct possibility this an oversight issue, but as it has not been addressed, I wanted to do so. Everyone in this thread pretty much came to the same conclusion that this was perfectly valid RAW, though quite possibly not RAI.
There's no reason to imply that someone is "missing the point".While most home games ultimately defer to the GM's judgement, there are settings where RAW is the ultimate defining factor in what does and does not fly. That's one of the reasons this channel exists, so people can have respectful and reasoned discussions in regards to the often odd and unpredictable vagrancies of the game.