RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As written, the scene doesn't make much sense. The militia want to take VC Muesello in for questioning, and Muesello is willing to go with them. If the PCs get to have any conversation with the Taldans, like "What do you want?", or if they just don't exacerbate the situation, the entire encounter is de-fused.
The trick is to prevent them from being reasonable. And they're armed Pathfinders, itching for trouble, so that's not too difficult.
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As written, the scene doesn't make much sense. The militia want to take VC Muesello in for questioning, and Muesello is willing to go with them. If the PCs get to have any conversation with the Taldans, like "What do you want?", or if they just don't exacerbate the situation, the entire encounter is de-fused.
The trick is to prevent them from being reasonable. And they're armed Pathfinders, itching for trouble, so that's not too difficult.
What if one of the PCs does open the door and some Dawnflowers aren't down the hole yet? Would the militia go straight towards the Dawnflowers or take out the PCs first?
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What if one of the PCs does open the door and some Dawnflowers aren't down the hole yet? Would the militia go straight towards the Dawnflowers or take out the PCs first?
They would probably go straight for the cultists and wouldn't bother with the PCs unless it was obvious that the PCs were going to get in their way. Remember that they are not evil and only respond with deadly force if attacked with it.
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What if one of the PCs does open the door and some Dawnflowers aren't down the hole yet? Would the militia go straight towards the Dawnflowers or take out the PCs first?They would probably go straight for the cultists and wouldn't bother with the PCs unless it was obvious that the PCs were going to get in their way. Remember that they are not evil and only respond with deadly force if attacked with it.
Cool. Thanks for the info. It should be a fun game tomorrow. I hope it goes smoothly!
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I'm running this scenario on the 14th. It will only be the third time I've GM'd PFS. I started prepping yesterday.
When using the map pack for the Dawnflower escape, do you actually place 10 minis on the maps to represent the cultists? Maybe this is just ignorance on my part but I thought that 10 cultists + 4 militia + 1 VC + PCs (20-21 minis total) would make for a lot of chaos on the map.
Hmm...now that I think about it, that scene is supposed to be chaotic so maybe I just answered my own questions. I'd still like to know how others have handled it though.
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I'm running this scenario on the 14th. It will only be the third time I've GM'd PFS. I started prepping yesterday.
When using the map pack for the Dawnflower escape, do you actually place 10 minis on the maps to represent the cultists? Maybe this is just ignorance on my part but I thought that 10 cultists + 4 militia + 1 VC + PCs (20-21 minis total) would make for a lot of chaos on the map.
Hmm...now that I think about it, that scene is supposed to be chaotic so maybe I just answered my own questions. I'd still like to know how others have handled it though.
If you feel it is to chaotic or there just isn't enough room you can just let the players know how many there are total. Just make sure to use markers for the ones that are down stairs in direct danger. Also let the players know how many have made it down into the tunnel and how many are still in the building throughout the encounter.
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I could see going either way regarding the use of minis. I haven't decided which way I'll go yet but I'm leaning towards using them to help build the chaotic tension in the scene.
Kristie, I like what you said about rushing the players to increase the sense of urgency. I think if I can keep this scene moving quickly and play up the chaos it could be a lot of fun!
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I was planning on running this scenario when I hit sort of a snag. One of my players is playing a Paladin of Abbadar. How in the world is he going to justify letting the Cultists escape? I mean the Cultists are breaking the law and the legitimate authorities are coming. Sure they're corrupt and brutal, but the Paladin really won't know that at this point. If he were a Paladin of Iomade it would probably work, but Abadar?? That's going to be a tough sell. Anyone have any ideas?
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As a player of 4 paladins of Abadar (you read that right), I would find it quite simple. Outlawing worship of a specific deity is not legitimate usage of authority. If a king were to sign a law that says all persons in this country are my slaves, that is not a legitimate usage of power as well.
And this is the tactic I would use for any other Paladin, but Abadar is the god of laws.
If those laws are corrupt, broken, or empty, then
your honor depends on fixing them from within, not simply breaking them.
Not only are they in a country where their faith is illegal, they're smuggling things out of the country illegally.
Nope. That's why they play the game. Let him play his character and let the other PCs play theirs and then see how it comes out in the wash.
Knowing the player, he's going to allow his character to be swayed by the rest of the party and go along with it. He doesn't like his character being a Paladin to cause problems for the rest of the group. As a GM I don't think that's fair to the player and was hoping I could come up with some logical reason a Paladin of Abadar would help criminals from a illegitimate authority.
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Best advice? Suggest he play a different PC for this scenario.
There are just going to be some scenarios that won't work well for his PC. This is one of them.
Once he gets to higher tier, there is an even worse scenario trilogy for him, though.
Rahadoum, and a Paladin of Abadar?
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If those laws are corrupt, broken, or empty, then
your honor depends on fixing them from within, not simply breaking them.Not only are they in a country where their faith is illegal, they're smuggling things out of the country illegally.
The laws are clearly corrupt, broken, and empty. Therefore, the Paladin's honor lies in fixing them from within. Saving the members of the church so that their worship may continue is fixing it from within.
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The laws are clearly corrupt, broken, and empty. Therefore, the Paladin's honor lies in fixing them from within. Saving the members of the church so that their worship may continue is fixing it from within.
This is the exact opposite of what that line means. It doesn't mean work with the criminals to break the laws, it means work with the government through legal channels to get the laws changed.
You say the outlaw of the religion is illegitimate, but considering as far as the people of Taldor know their entire country is in EPIC decline because Qadira, and the "Cult of Sarenrae" enabled Qadira to invade Taldor it would be justified.
And the party was told that these guards killed the Dawnflower cult members, even though they were not fighting back. That puts the paladin in a compromising position, but I'd consider yanking the PC's paladinhood if he or she were to turn over the cultists for their execution.
So in your world a LAWFUL good Paladin of the GOD OF LAWS would have to break the law to stay a paladin? Let's hope I'm never a paladin in one of your games then. Let's not forgot that not only are these cultists breaking the law with their religion, but they are also illegally smuggling things out of the country.
Best advice? Suggest he play a different PC for this scenario.
There are just going to be some scenarios that won't work well for his PC. This is one of them.
Once he gets to higher tier, there is an even worse scenario trilogy for him, though.
The more I look at, I'm afraid you might be right. I just don't see a way around this.
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I said I'd consider it. No one holds a gun to your head and makes you play a paladin in PFS. I don't have sympathy for people choose to shoehorn paladins into Pathfinder Society then get bent because the morally gray organization they have joined compromises their principles. It's an academic discussion, however. Let me add that a paladin losing their status can be a great role-playing milestone. It's not the end of the character, anymore than suffering death.
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Again, unless the guard has been given free reign to slay worshippers of Sarenrae without trial or even arrest, it is an illegitimate authority according to the story told. The paladin is in no way required to turn the cultists over to be slaughtered, and could consider his duty to be deporting the outlaws post haste.
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So, the Paladin in question says that worship of Sarenrae must become legal. The country laughs, the "cultists" are slaughtered, and the Paladin has done the right thing? Let the Paladin play it out. Make em squirm. This is an easy one to solve, personally. Try on The Cyphermage Dilemma if you want a hard choice for a Lawful Good player.
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Again, unless the guard has been given free reign to slay worshippers of Sarenrae without trial or even arrest, it is an illegitimate authority according to the story told.
No the authority comes from a legitimate source. It's not some rebel group that took control of the police, the people that were put in charge, and are supposed to be in charge passed the laws and sent the militia to see them enforced.
The paladin is in no way required to turn the cultists over to be slaughtered, and could consider his duty to be deporting the outlaws post haste.
The Paladin won't have seen anyone killed, and all he has to go on is the word of a criminal. What else have the cultists been up to (besides smuggling illegal goods)? Where they really as innocent as being portrayed? The Paladin can't be sure. Now if they turn the cultists over and the guards start slaughtering them out of hand, NOW the Paladin can intervene.
So, the Paladin in question says that worship of Sarenrae must become legal. The country laughs, the "cultists" are slaughtered, and the Paladin has done the right thing?
According to the tenets of Abadar? Yes. And this really is my issue. Any other god, this isn't really a problem. What really kills me is that the only reason the player picked Abadar is because Golorian doesn't have a god of knowledge. Yeah, yeah Irori has the Knowledge Portfolio but he really has nothing to do with it at all. The player wanted a scholar type god and Abadar is the closest he could come to it.
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No the authority comes from a legitimate source. It's not some rebel group that took control of the police, the people that were put in charge, and are supposed to be in charge passed the laws and sent the militia to see them enforced.
Except that the leader of the raid was Chalfon Dalsine, not an official of the guard.
The Paladin won't have seen anyone killed, and all he has to go on is the word of a criminal. What else have the cultists been up to (besides smuggling illegal goods)? Where they really as innocent as being portrayed? The Paladin can't be sure. Now if they turn the cultists over and the guards start slaughtering them out of hand, NOW the Paladin can intervene.
He has a Sense Motive check, and if he's high enough level, possibly a Phylactery of Faithfulness.
Edit:
The brutality of the recent raid on the Dawnflower Blossoms does not reflect the current government's attitude toward Sarenites within Taldor's borders. It is more likely the result of a single, ultra-patriotic zeal.
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I was planning on running this scenario when I hit sort of a snag. One of my players is playing a Paladin of Abbadar. How in the world is he going to justify letting the Cultists escape? I mean the Cultists are breaking the law and the legitimate authorities are coming. Sure they're corrupt and brutal, but the Paladin really won't know that at this point. If he were a Paladin of Iomade it would probably work, but Abadar?? That's going to be a tough sell. Anyone have any ideas?
The guards at the door have been straight murdering every cultist they can get their hands on, even the ones who surrender. Unless the punishment for worshiping Sarenrae and non-violent smuggling is immediate and unquestioning murder in the streets, then the guards are not operating within the bounds of their lawfully given authority. The guards are acting as vigilantes, abusing their authority and acting outside the law.
Venture Captain Muesello has admitted to smuggling antiquities out without paying the necessary taxes (and is not attempting to escape). There's no evidence that the cultists hiding here were directly involved in (or even aware of) the smuggling.
In the long term, the paladin may want to report the guards accused of murdering the cultists who surrendered so they can be investigated and punished for their actions. In the long term, the paladin may want to petition the government to overturn the ban. Whatever. Sarenrae is is a neutral good god of sun, redemption, honesty, and healing, and the ban is clearly motivated by a mix of racism and politics. This isn't a just ban.
In the short term, the paladin is facing a group of vigilantes misusing their legal authority to murder a group of persecuted minorities. That paladin has no obligation to assist this mockery of law. He can easily justify helping these suspected petty criminals escape, since the alternative is that they will be unlawfully murdered without trial. Once they are in the catacombs he would protect the suspects from harm so they can be turned over to proper authorities at a later date (which becomes irrelevant once the cultists decide to flee the country at the end of the adventure).
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the venture-captain for the Opparan Pathfinder lodge, a man named Muesello, had been using the Dawnflower Blossoms to smuggle Taldan artifacts out of the country in order to circumvent Taldor’s high export taxes on such items.
This plus the fact they were in his house, leads me to believe that the Dawnflowers knew what they were doing.
I also think people are assuming a lot more knowledge than what's given. So far the only thing known is that one group of Dawnflower Blossoms were savagely attacked. That's it. Are these the same guards? Not known. Were there extenuating circumstances? Not known. Is it happening everywhere? No. Could it have been 1 isolated case? Sure, even likely given that it's the only time it has happened.
As far as the rabbit hole, a Paladin doesn't expect everyone else to live by his code.
This isn't a just ban
Why, because you know that Sarenrae is NG? You do realize that's a game mechanic right? No one in the real world believes they're chaotic evil, but some people are.
Imagine you had everything you could ever want. You had the perfect family, whatever that means to you. You had enough money so you and your family could live the way you wanted to. You loved your job, and everyone was happy.
Then something happens, and you really don't understand what it was, all you know is that everything is gone. Your family was taken away, you are dirt poor and can barely afford to survive. In the midst of all this, the leaders of your world finally tell you what happened: You were attacked and defeated. Your enemies are the ones that took everything, but the reason they were able to defeat you so soundly was because some evil people opened the door and let your enemies in. You don't think you'd be justified in banning anyone associated with those evil people? Don't you think some people may hate those evil people so much that they may get a little overzealous? Does that mean the ban isn't justified? Does that mean that EVERYONE will be overzealous?
Now this has gone MUCH further than my initial question, and I'm still pretty convinced that this is probably a bad place for a Paladin of Abadar.
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Imagine you had everything you could ever want. You had the perfect family, whatever that means to you. You had enough money so you and your family could live the way you wanted to. You loved your job, and everyone was happy.
Then something happens, and you really don't understand what it was, all you know is that everything is gone. Your family was taken away, you are dirt poor and can barely afford to survive. In the midst of all this, the leaders of your world finally tell you what happened: You were attacked and defeated. Your enemies are the ones that took everything, but the reason they were able to defeat you so soundly was because some evil people opened the door and let your enemies in. You don't think you'd be justified in banning anyone associated with those evil people? Don't you think some people may hate those evil people so much that they may get a little overzealous?
This was called Nazi Germany.
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Something which hasn't been mentioned so far in this discussion, I believe, is that a LG Paladin of a LN deity has to interpret his or her god's LN teachings through a LG filter. The paladin can't follow the god's teachings verbatim, as this would mean he or she would therefore be LN. IMO, this means that the paladin is working as best he or she can to follow the teachings of the god, while following the paladin code at the same time, and probably holding the central tenants of the paladin code over those of the god the majority of the time. The god obviously accepts this, otherwise a paladin of a LN god would not exist, he or she would lose all power and simply become a devout fighter.
The fact that the paladin lives in the interstitial moral space between LG and LN, IMO, gives him or her enough wiggle room to make decisions not based purely on one dogma or another.
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Why, because you know that Sarenrae is NG? You do realize that's a game mechanic right? No one in the real world believes they're chaotic evil, but some people are....
...You don't think you'd be justified in banning anyone associated with those evil people? Don't you think some people may hate those evil people so much that they may get a little overzealous? Does that mean the ban isn't justified?
Oooookay. You realize you just went from soliciting advice on how your player could handle this situation, to passionately arguing in favor of Taldor's religious ban?
I'm not sure if you were trying to troll the thread, or if you went into this situation already having made up your mind and were just looking for someone to agree with you.
For whatever it is worth, the point I was trying to make is that the situation is sketchy and unclear enough that any character involved is going to have to make a gut decision (sense motive checks, knowledge checks, whatever) whether or not to trust the Venture Captain when he says that the guards murdered surrending cultists. If he does, then our hypothetical paladin of Abadar has a pretty good basis to rationalize not handing over the cultists at the moment. There's some wiggle room to get through the encounter without derailing the adventure or making the character fall as a paladin.
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Paladin? They're good, which gives them plenty of reasons to mistrust Chalfon's murderous militia. Try this:
When I ran this, the LN Order of the Lion (that's the order that's loyal to a nation above all) Taldan cavalier stared incredulously at the Venture Captain and then when the guards showed up, he agreed to talk them down, as a Taldan Baron. The problem is, he actually wanted everyone to get caught, since they were using illegal Dawnflower cultists (the msot militant of Sarenrae worshippers) to smuggle artifacts past Taldor's tariffs. Another character explained to him three times how letting the fiasco happen would ruin the reputations of all Taldor faction Pathfinders, including the cavalier and Jacquo Dalsine, and he finally relented (as he was very fond of Dalsine...of course, then the scenario end happened).
Later the rest of the party literally sat there as the Faceless Stalker while disguised as a Sarenrite beat the crap out of the cavalier, without helping him, as they thought the NPC was making more sense.
People generally had a good time with him around despite his belligerence to the smuggling and Dawnflower cultists, as they felt it really played up how real the moral dilemmas and the tension of what was going on were to his character. The character has never quite been the same since Jacquo's death.
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This was called Nazi Germany.
Ah you recognized it, good for you. Now apply the lessons learned to the Pathfinder situation and you begin to see that what you call "unjust" would make perfect sense to the people living in those times.
Oooookay. You realize you just went from soliciting advice on how your player could handle this situation, to passionately arguing in favor of Taldor's religious ban?
You misunderstand. The only thing I'm passionate about is people trying to apply 2013 American morals to Golorian (or any other fantasy world for that matter).
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This was called Nazi Germany.
Ah you recognized it, good for you. Now apply the lessons learned to the Pathfinder situation and you begin to see that what you call "unjust" would make perfect sense to the people living in those times.
The lessons learned are that when a law is unjust, you do not obey it. When a neighboring country acts in a genocidal manner, you do not permit it. When a religious minority is hunted down, you move to save them.
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The lessons learned are that when a law is unjust, you do not obey it. When a neighboring country acts in a genocidal manner, you do not permit it. When a religious minority is hunted down, you move to save them.
Well then let's try some more modern history. Doesn't the US persecute al-Qaeda who are a militant religious organization? Aren't they hunted down, thrown in prison? Didn't some overzealous "police" even humiliate and torture some of them? Isn't it against the law to be al-Qaeda in the us? Isn't this an "unjust" law that we should break and the right thing to do is to help al-Qaeda?
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Isn't it against the law to be al-Qaeda in the us? Isn't this an "unjust" law that we should break and the right thing to do is to help al-Qaeda?
Not that I am aware of. But it is against the law to murder people, which al-Qaeda does. So if you are a member of al-Qaeda but have not murdered anyone, you should be safe.
