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There has been some debate on the forums as to how Prestige Classes would fare as Archetypes. This is an attempt to take all the Prestige Classes from the Core Rulebook (except Eldritch Knight and Dragon Disciple) and transform them into balanced, viable Archetypes. Please offer any feedback in this thread. Thanks!
Wouldn't they fare pretty poorly, since they go from being able to enter them from many classes to being restricted to just one?
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Wouldn't they fare pretty poorly, since they go from being able to enter them from many classes to being restricted to just one?
That could be possible. The intent of this isn't to make an overpowered Archetype, it's to build ones within the framework of official Archetypes that captures the flavor of the PrC. This way your player can start with his character concept at level 1 as opposed to waiting six levels. Currently most PrCs are pretty underpowered. Could you pick a specific one of the Archetypes presented that you think would fare poorly when paired with a build of the current PrC?
Cheapy has a good point, but some of them would be easier to decide than others. Still, I'd like to see how these would look as archetypes.
How closely do these need to replicate prestige class abilities?
At a glance:
I don't think arcane trickster should be a wizard archetype; maybe a bard or a rogue, but not a wiz.
I could see shadowdancer as several different classes. Bard, rogue, ranger, or inquisitor (w/some kind of darkness/shadow domain) could all work.
To some extent I agree with you, Lazarx, but some of those prestige classes are available in order to merge two classes and keep their abilities at a reasonable level. Those are the PrCs that should probably just stay PrCs (or else become new classes entirely, sort of like the magus is sort of an eldritch knight).
Archetypes can also represent a specialization in a class aspect (such as most fighter archetypes), but they certainly shouldn't increase one feature at the expense of an unrelated ability.
I like the idea of making duelist an option that fighters can take as an archetype to help visualize and implement the traditional low-armor swordsman prevalent in fantasy books/movies/etc. at early levels (such as Madmartigan in Willow).
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I don't think arcane trickster should be a wizard archetype; maybe a bard or a rogue, but not a wiz.
I don't think a rogue would work because you would have to balance spellcasting and such. A bard could be possible, but to me the biggest features of the arcane trickster were sneak attack and ranged ledgermain. By following a similar structure for other wizard archetypes those could easily be implemented into an archetype. Any suggestions on how to improve the arcane trickster or how you would go about turning it into a different archetype?
I could see shadowdancer as several different classes. Bard, rogue, ranger, or inquisitor (w/some kind of darkness/shadow domain) could all work.
I looked at the inquisitor, ranger, and rogue but the bard seemed the best to incoporate all of the cool features of the shadowdancer. Plus the name has dancer lol. The archetype does change nearly all of the bard's abilities.
Prestige classes represent specialisation in a class aspect at the expense of progression in base class qualities. This looks very much like an attempt to get around that cost.
Currently the player does not recieve enough benefits for this cost. This is not intended to be a way for players to powergame, it's a way for players to actually play a PrC. Take the Arcane Archer for instance. He is a cool concept but no one plays them because it takes so many levels before your initial chracter concept is realized and even then you're inferior to other class counterparts.
All right, I checked everything out more thoroughly. You've talked me into arcane trickster being a wizard archetype. My main concern now is allowing players to choose illusion as an opposition school after giving them access to invisibility through the invisible thief ability. Not that it's unfair or anything (they are picking FOUR opposition schools after all); it just rubs me the wrong way.
This archetype also misses out on skills per level and a good Ref save, but those are minor nitpicks.
There are some serious consequences for playing an arcane trickster. Is it worth it?
Your shadowdancer is a decent bard archetype as well, but allowing them to create a shadow at 1st level seems too powerful, even if it's only for a handful of rounds. Maybe take away the Str damage touch attack until a later level (8th?).
There are a few other features the shadowdancer is going to miss out on, but I'm not sure you can cram everything the PrC gets into an archetype.
Also, add some shadow spells to their spell list.
The arcane archer probably shouldn't have access to hail of arrows as early as 12th level. The earliest I calculated the PrC could get it would be at 15th level (fighter 5/wizard 2/arcane archer 8). In the rulebook, hail of arrows is made in lieu of regular attacks and has a maximum number of targets; yours is made after a full-attack and has no maximum targets. I'd bump it to 15th level and reword it to function as in the Core Rulebook, but max target equal to 1/2 level.
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My main concern now is allowing players to choose illusion as an opposition school after giving them access to invisibility through the invisible thief ability.
I could put under the opposition schools section saying that they cannot choose illusion as an opposition school, but then that would irk me a little cause it doesn't stay close to the official format. I honestly never though of that but it could be considered a benefit of being an arcane trickster. As for skill points per level, the wizard should probably get more than 2+int anyways just they have such high intelligence skills aren't a problem. I thought about doing a skill point boost ability similar to the fighter(lore warden) instead of invisible thief, but it wouldn't follow the format of archetypes having a sacrifice spell ability. What do you think?
Your shadowdancer is a decent bard archetype as well, but allowing them to create a shadow at 1st level seems too powerful, even if it's only for a handful of rounds. Maybe take away the Str damage touch attack until a later level (8th?).
Actually I feel it can go either way. Most low level combat is over in one strike while a shadow must do multiple strikes to kill anything. Also, it will have low hit points. I added a note though that the shadow cannot create spawns. At higher levels is when the shadow can really start to shine against tougher enemies. What I really liked about making the shadow the shadowdancer's main song ability was it enhanced the bard's ability to hamper enemies. Where a normal bard improves your entire team's effectiveness, the shadowdancer can greatly hamper a single opponent's effectiveness.
Also, add some shadow spells to their spell list.
Great suggestion I'll update.
The arcane archer probably shouldn't have access to hail of arrows as early as 12th level. The earliest I calculated the PrC could get it would be at 15th level (fighter 5/wizard 2/arcane archer 8).I'd bump it to 15th level and reword it to function as in the Core Rulebook, but max target equal to 1/2 level.
Changed the minimum to 15th and the max target to 1/2 per level. I'm still hesitant about making the minimum 15th level because I hate interesting abilities never coming into play but your build makes it's point :) However I purposefully made the hail of arrows come after a full attack because I feel the Core Rulebook version is too weak.
mystic theurge that doesn't seem to suck, major points just for that
I could put under the opposition schools section saying that they cannot choose illusion as an opposition school, but then that would irk me a little cause it doesn't stay close to the official format. I honestly never though of that but it could be considered a benefit of being an arcane trickster. As for skill points per level, the wizard should probably get more than 2+int anyways just they have such high intelligence skills aren't a problem. I thought about doing a skill point boost ability similar to the fighter(lore warden) instead of invisible thief, but it wouldn't follow the format of archetypes having a sacrifice spell ability. What do you think?
I'm not sure what you mean, the PrC doesn't say anything about opposition schools; what do you mean by "official format"?
They are still wizards, so they probably don't need a skill boost. I was just trying to point out how your archetype deviates from the PrC.
Since you are giving up arcane school, picking four opposition schools, and not letting them benefit from an extra spell per day (for specializing) maybe you should let them keep cantrips and Scribe Scroll, and change invisible thief to function like the invisibility field of an illusionist but as a free action (and give it to them at 8th level). I don't see anything in the PrC that burns spells for abilities.
You could possibly work the impromptu sneak attack, tricky spells, and surprise spells abilities into this archetype by replacing wizard bonus feats. Check out the arcane discoveries from Ultimate Magic to get a feel for balance.
Actually I feel it can go either way. Most low level combat is over in one strike while a shadow must do multiple strikes to kill anything. Also, it will have low hit points. I added a note though that the shadow cannot create spawns. At higher levels is when the shadow can really start to shine against tougher enemies. What I really liked about making the shadow the shadowdancer's main song ability was it enhanced the bard's ability to hamper enemies. Where a normal bard improves your entire team's effectiveness, the shadowdancer can greatly hamper a single opponent's effectiveness.
Killing things isn't really the issue. Having a shadow available at early levels offers advantages in and out of combat that will give your DM a fit. Every shadow is going to target the BBEG and there is very little that he can do about it; shadows are immune to mundane attacks and spells and magic only deal half damage to incorporeal creatures, which means that at low levels your shadow effectively has hit points equal to your own. On top of that, if they do kill your shadow, you can simply start the performance over as a standard action and immediately get him back at full hit points (unless you clarify if it functions more like an eidolon in that regard). I'm assuming that the Str damage sticks around even after the performance stops, so you sort of have an incorporeal ray of enfeeblement 2 x bard level + Cha times per day that doesn't allow a saving throw or provoke attacks of opportunity and also functions as a (semi-)indestructible scout.
Changed the minimum to 15th and the max target to 1/2 per level. I'm still hesitant about making the minimum 15th level because I hate interesting abilities never coming into play but your build makes it's point :) However I purposefully made the hail of arrows come after a full attack because I feel the Core Rulebook version is too weak.
Because hail of arrows is only once per day, has a maximum number of targets, and uses your BAB, I can see making it available a little earlier than 15th level. I'm still not sold on letting you do it after a full attack though, it sounds too much like extra actions. Is there any other ability that allows that? Keep in mind that this would effectively allow you to make one more attack on that BBAG you didn't quiet take down with your full attack. Also, how would this function if you used Rapid Shot during your full attack? Do the hail attacks take the -2 penalty as well?
So there are some of my concerns.
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I'm assuming that the Str damage sticks around even after the performance stops, so you sort of have an incorporeal ray of enfeeblement 2 x bard level + Cha times per day that doesn't allow a saving throw or provoke attacks of opportunity and also functions as a (semi-)indestructible scout.
As far as scouting goes, the performance reilies upon visual components so the shadow would have to remain within visual range. I agree though that it is too powerful and have changed the wording/flavor as follows:
Transmute Shadow: At 1st level, a shadowdancer can use his performance to transform his own shadow into an undead shadow companion. Transformation requires a standard action but only a free action to maintain. His shadow appears immediately adjacent to the shadowdancer at the start of transformation and may take its actions normally. The shadowdancer’s shadow functions like those found in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary except his shadow uses the shadowdancer’s base attack bonus and base save bonus, has half the shadowdancer’s hit points, receives a +4 bonus on Will saves made to halve damage from positive channeled energy, cannot be turned or commanded, cannot create shadow spawns, and is the same alignment as the shadowdancer. Additionally, the shadow deals 2 Str damage instead of the normal 1d6. The shadow’s Str damage and deflection bonus to AC increase by 1 at 5th level and every six levels thereafter. The shadow serves faithfully, executing any command given and communicating intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Damaged shadows heal 1 hp per round while not in use. If his shadow is slain, the shadowdancer’s performance immediately ends and he cannot perform this performance again until he rests. While using this performance the shadowdancer casts no shadow and if his shadow is slain, it does not return until after he rests. This performance replaces inspire courage.
Keep in mind that this would effectively allow you to make one more attack on that BBAG you didn't quiet take down with your full attack. Also, how would this function if you used Rapid Shot during your full attack? Do the hail attacks take the -2 penalty as well?
My intentions for hail of arrows is for it to allow the arcane archer the ability to still deal effective damage against one target while also offering slight crowd control. The PrC version only offers slight crowd control that is not effective, especially for a once per day ability. However, I do agree that my current writing increases the arcane archer's action economy a bit too much. I have reworded it as follows:
Hail of Arrows: Once per day after making a full-round attack action with his bow, an arcane archer can fire an arrow at a number of targets equal to ½ his level (excluding allies) which he has not attacked this round. Each target must be within range and may only be targeted by a single arrow. Each attack uses the arcane archer’s primary attack bonus. An arcane archer must be at least 15th level before selecting this arcana.
A bit of thread necromancy here; I've been looking at the same Prestige Class Archetypes kaisc006, with somewhat different results. My results can be found here: Prestige Class Archetypes.
Working through the different versions and comparing. Only done the arcane archer so far. kaisc006's version is much closer to the magus than mine. Mine is more of a wizard/ranger/arcane archer combo only using the magus as a framework.
Man have i been promoting the hell outta this thread over the years (oh god, it's years now!). Still a big fan kaisc.
Continuing with the comparisons with the arcane trickster. kaisc006's arcane trickster is built on a wizard chassis, mine on a magus. This means I can keep many more arcane trickster abilities without balance issues.
