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So following on from this thread: Where I did some brainstorming about how to build on the following combo:
2d10 (Monk max unarmed strike damage)-> 6d8 (Huge size due to wildshape) -> 12d8 (Strong jaw spell)
I've come up with the following build (and it's reasonably straightforward)
Monk(Sensei/Qinggong Monk)10 / Druid(Menhir Savant)10
Archetype choice wise, this character is a Sensei so that To Hit, AC, CMB, CMD, Ki Points, bonus spells per day, domain abilities and will save are all based on wisdom. Qinggong monk is so that I can do other things with my ki points and the Menhir Savant for the druid is just all round kick-ass.
I've taken 10 levels of druid beause this allows you to get full wild shape progression (with shaping focus) and also unarmed strike progression (with monastic legacy and a monk's robe)
I didn't pick the Saurian Shaman (though I very much would have liked to) because it delays my initial wildshape somewhat which makes feat slotting slightly awkward. A shame, because the domains for the Saurian Shaman were really good. Perhaps I'll put it in an alternate build.
So without further ado, here is the build:
Master Shaper Humberto Lopez
LN Human Monk(Sensei/Qinggong Monk)10/Druid(Menhir Savant)10
Stats:
(Hardcore Wisdom)
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 18 -> 20 (Human bonus stat boost)
Cha 7
or
(More balanced and survivable)
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16 -> 18 (Human bonus stat boost)
Cha 8
Traits:
Magical Knack (Druidic Magic, +2 CL up to character level), good for a multiclassed druid characters, makes my final CL 12 which is key for a lot of buffing spells)
Focused Mind (+2 to concentration checks, because as a combat character I'll need to make those eventually)
Feats:
Human: TWF
Monk 1: SF Conjuration
Monk 1 (Bonus): Dodge
Monk 3: Monastic Legacy
Monk 3 / Druid 2: Augment Summoning
Monk 3 / Druid 4: Shaping Focus
Monk 3 / Druid 6: Natural Spell
This character can now become huge and cast 4th level spells, which means Strong Jaw! As calculated from previous, this character does 6d8 damage per hit, which combined with TWF, is 18d8 possible damage on a charge (pounce from allosaurus). *Note, buy dexterity boosting equipment if possible, the hit to dex from wildshaping into a huge animal might take TWF away
Monk 4 / Druid 7: Planar Wild Shape
Monk 5 / Druid 8 : ITWF (or Wild speech, or Powerful Shape)
Monk 7 / Druid 8 : Vital Strike
[spoiler=15th level overview]Planar wild shape is the real winner at this level. Since you're neutral you get to choose whether you want to become a celestial or fiendish creature. Basically you decide at this point whether you want to have DR 10 / good or evil. Which is gross, I can tell you. Do you think the archdemon is going to have a holy longsword prepped just for you? Also, if you want to forgo that you can just turn into a tendriculos and regenerate 10 HP per turn. Note of interest: For all that elementals are poo-poohed, they actually have a slightly better stat outlay than huge animals, if you want to use that ITWF you just picked up (your dex won't be as heavily penalized)
Monk 9 / Druid 8 : Improved Vital Strike
Monk 10 / Druid 8 (Monk bonus Feat): Medusa's Wrath
Monk 10 / Druid 9: Quicken Spell like ability (True Strike)
Medusa's wrath is great if you make your first hit in a full attack a stunning fist, thats two extra attacks at your highest attack bonus (8 attacks with haste, so 96d8 possible damage).
So there he is, 10th level druid buffing, full wild shape progression, full unarmed strike progression, great AC (Natural armor bonuses + Super high wis) and a 12d8 base attack will be sure to mess up anyones day. And this build is rather feat neutral as well, except for Monastic Legacy and Shaping Focus you can swap out feats for others you might like. Standouts include:
Power attack
Crane Style chain
Divine Interference
GTWF
Phew! I'd appreciate comments and ways I could improve the build please! :)
prototype00
So you decided not to go with Feral Combat Training?
So you decided not to go with Feral Combat Training?
I was thinking about it, for certain natural attacks that have good riders (like trip or grab), but it's two feats per natural attack. Just to get the allosaurus up to snuff, I have to take FCT for both it's bite and it's talons (whatever the heck those are, claws I suspect) and the moment I turn into an elemental (slams) thats 4 feats wasted.
Its a bit hard to turn into multiple forms and still maintain any coherency in the natural attacks you will be using. Better to stick to unarmed strikes for the damage.
prototype00
You don't have to take it for all types of natural attacks. It would be effective to just take it for bite, for instance. There are many forms that have that type of natural attack that would fit well with the build. Like the Allosaurus for instance.
Also, what is the plan behind powerful shape? Are you going to be trampling a lot? Tripping? Grabbing? All of the above? I ask because I had thought the biggest point of the build was to push out damage which that feat doesn't help with much.
An unarmed strike is always considered light.
Pulled this from the Combat section of d20PFSRD on Two-Weapon Fighting, so it sounds like you can dual-wield unarmed strikes.
I really like the build concept. Is there a shape you can take that's not an Allosaurus that can still make this work?
You don't have to take it for all types of natural attacks. It would be effective to just take it for bite, for instance. There are many forms that have that type of natural attack that would fit well with the build. Like the Allosaurus for instance.
Having a number of favored shapes will help you with direction.
The main forms for this build are Allosaurus (Huge Size and pounce), Dire Tiger (Large Size and pounce), Deionychus (Medium Size and pounce), Air Elemental (DR 5/-, fly (perfect), no penalty to dex, whirlwind) and Tendriculos (Regeneration).
Unfortunately even from this reduced selections, you still have bite and claw, slam and tentacle to Feral combat train. I suppose it can be done (and getting claw or bite for the allosaurus grab or the megatherium's trip would make this character a good control sort as well as a damage dealer, but feats would have to be replaced).
Pulled this from the Combat section of d20PFSRD on Two-Weapon Fighting, so it sounds like you can dual-wield unarmed strikes.
I really like the build concept. Is there a shape you can take that's not an Allosaurus that can still make this work?
For general combat purposes, I favor the air elemental actually. Better stat boosts and fly make for a better combat experience. But of course, that is the beauty of using unarmed strikes, it works whatever you change into, just make sure its huge.
prototype00
All of your main shapes aside from elemental have bite.
You're a melee build with a base of 10 strength, pouncing forms aren't going to help your DR that much.
Thats a bit much to say for a character that hits for three times as hard as the Tarrasque's bite (and probably much more than that for Mr T's other attacks). Besides, would you rather have 12d8 on a charge or 96d8 on a charge? (i.e. Poppycock, I say to you, Sir.)
You're dedicating feats to summoning spells when you're summoning first level monsters and the rest of your party is summoning 3rd level monsters.
The early levels where SF conjuration and augment summoning come in are hard to fill with anything truly worthwhile. I suppose I could put power attack and WF unarmed strike in there if nothing else to boost DPR.
IMO: Going Monk 4 / Druid 16 and having an actual strength score would be much better (going monk 3 / druid 17 would even net 9th level spells). If you really wanted to keep sensei you could, though I'd probably go master of many styles.
You could definitely build a strength version of this build, that would have a better DPR and versatility at mixing in natural attacks (but much less in the way of AC and saves), I kind of like the elegant simplicity of a one stat character, but do not gainsay the alternative.
About the distribution of levels, I did toy with alternative builds with more druid than Monk, but spellcasting is the only thing on the druid's side in that equation (as I've gotten all I've wanted out of wildshape by lvl 12). As there was nothing in those upper spell levels that was of direct help to my melee DPR, I chose to forgo them, though if you could provide a specific example of what I am missing then...?
prototype00
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Hello Prototype - this build looks awesome! Do you mind if I put it on this website, giving you full credit and linking this thread?
Hello Prototype - this build looks awesome! Do you mind if I put it on this website, giving you full credit and linking this thread?
No of course, I would be honored if you were to post it to the wiki. As others have pointed out, there may be paths of development that I haven't attempted that would lead to better results, but the core of the build, i.e. easy to obtain size increases for monk unarmed strike reamins the same.
prototype00
DOT
I must admit to be puzzled as to what you mean by that.
prototype00
Found the following pertinent text from the CRB related to polymorph effects:
You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed.
Seems this build is hardly a slam dunk if you've got a restrictive GM. Really cool concept: Tai chi Tyrannosaur! Unfortunately, I think the above text is enough to kill it at many tables.
Found the following pertinent text from the CRB related to polymorph effects:
You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed.Seems this build is hardly a slam dunk if you've got a restrictive GM. Really cool concept: Tai chi Tyrannosaur! Unfortunately, I think the above text is enough to kill it at many tables.
A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.
The only form I've quoted above without at least one of the above appendages is the Tendriculos, and thats mostly for healing up after combat. So, what does the monk lose in allosaurus form that it had in human form to not be able to use unarmed strike?
Also, if you're worried, just wait until you can turn into an elemental, which can assume a humanoid enough shape for most DMs, I would suspect.
prototype00
Found the following pertinent text from the CRB related to polymorph effects:
You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed.Seems this build is hardly a slam dunk if you've got a restrictive GM. Really cool concept: Tai chi Tyrannosaur! Unfortunately, I think the above text is enough to kill it at many tables.A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.The only form I've quoted above without at least one of the above appendages is the Tendriculos, and thats mostly for healing up after combat. So, what does the monk lose in allosaurus form that it had in human form to not be able to use unarmed strike?
Also, if you're worried, just wait until you can turn into an elemental, which can assume a humanoid enough shape for most DMs, I would suspect.
prototype00
No, it's the fact that you lose the monk's class feature that grants you the 2d10 unarmed damage when you wildshape if the DM rules it so. Frankly, I could see this going either way. I can see arguments cropping up over whether the monk's improved damage comes from his inner spirit or his intense physical training. If the DM rules it's the former, then wildshape is a-ok. If the latter, then this build is out of luck.
If you're arguing that DMs have control over their games, then I have no argument with you.
If you're arguing that just by changing into a different form, you lose something essential for martial arts by RAW, then I have the point I posted previously, that by RAW, all the limbs required for the monk's unarmed strike are still present, post wildshape.
As I stated in the previous thread, so much of martial arts comes from emulating animals, its a tad hypocritical to then go and say that animals can't perform martial arts.
As for your last part about inner spirit vs intense physical training, I've seen no RAW rules that refer to either. So if a DM wants to refer to either to deny a monk's ability to use this trick, he is acting contra-RAW. Which, fair enough is his perogative, but I don't make it a habit to play with such DMs.
prototype00
Have you considered the Guided weapon property on an Amulet of Mighty Fists (cost: 5000 gp to startup, you could get that pretty early) instead of that very painful 10 levels of sensei? That'll give you +Wis to attack and damage, though I'm not sure if it would interact...poorly... with forms with only 1 natural attack (which is functionally like being a 2H manufactured weapon for str mod and power attack). Solution would be avoiding forms with only 1 natural attack if so.
Monk 4 is enough to get Monastic Legacy, then you get a monk's belt, and at level 20 you have the unarmed damage of a level 17 monk.
Dropping Sensei like the bad habit that it is also means you can be a Master of Many Styles, since w/o Feral Combat Training, natural attacks and flurry don't mix well (read: at all) anyway.
My argument is that by RAW, when you are affected by a polymorph effect you lose all class features based on form. Note that no exception is given based on the amount of potentially appropriate limbs you might have in your new shape.
The definition of "based on form" is vague. We're told that "it should be obvious" but it's otherwise left up to the DM.
I'm speculating that the extra unarmed damage can easily be interpreted as being "based on form". In fact, I find it highly likely. If that's the case, the simple fact that you are wildshaping into an air elemental (a form with limbs) doesn't change the fact that you no longer have the hardened iron fists of a monk. You may well be able to make unarmed strikes as an air elemental, but they won't be enhanced by the monk's class feature, because you lost that class feature.
That's all.
Monk's unarmed damage is based on your form. More specifically your size. It does not DEPEND upon form to work. Only to determine the dice size. There is a huge, massive, blatant difference between the two.
Likewise, a class feature that buffs your natural armor would work in any form, as long as it's not "setting" your natural armor (due to overlap in that case). Name one form where a class feature that increases your natural armor would not function. Please.
It's also not dependent on form.
Monk's unarmed damage is based on your form. More specifically your size. It does not DEPEND upon form to work. Only to determine the dice size. There is a huge, massive, blatant difference between the two.
Likewise, a class feature that buffs your natural armor would work in any form, as long as it's not "setting" your natural armor (due to overlap in that case). Name one form where a class feature that increases your natural armor would not function. Please.
It's also not dependent on form.
Oh, is there any RAW on that point? As far as I can tell, there isn't. We're told that what does and doesn't depend on form "should be obvious". Otherwise, the DM has the final say. That's the only RAW on the matter. I don't find anything about the monk obvious on this point. For instance, what about the ability Diamond Body? Does that depend on form? What about Quivering Palm? My point is that I can see plausible arguments for just about every monk feature as "depending on form".
EDIT: As for class features with + natural armour, I'm thinking specifically of Dragon Disciple. Your skin is described as getting harder. Clearly an example of a class feature that "depends on form".
Have you considered the Guided weapon property on an Amulet of Mighty Fists (cost: 5000 gp to startup, you could get that pretty early) instead of that very painful 10 levels of sensei? That'll give you +Wis to attack and damage, though I'm not sure if it would interact...poorly... with forms with only 1 natural attack (which is functionally like being a 2H manufactured weapon for str mod and power attack). Solution would be avoiding forms with only 1 natural attack if so.
I love the Guided weapon property, but two things stop me from putting it right into builds. It's listed in a 3.5 era adventure path, and it seems slightly more powerful than the agile property.
Monk 4 is enough to get Monastic Legacy, then you get a monk's belt, and at level 20 you have the unarmed damage of a level 17 monk.
Dropping Sensei like the bad habit that it is also means you can be a Master of Many Styles, since w/o Feral Combat Training, natural attacks and flurry don't mix well (read: at all) anyway.
10 levels of Sensei is granted something that can be exchanged. You could pursue a strength build and drop it altogether. (Though a perverse part of me wants a least 10 monk levels so as to end up at 2d10 unarmed damage eventually, that one step (from 2d8-2d10) is worth 4d8 (8d8 -> 12d8) damage per hit in the long run.)
But yes, for a strength build (which I might attempt next), Master of many styles is a good stand in for Sensei, and you don't even have to take feral combat training because the MoMS doesn't have flurry of blows. Switch those natural attacks in with your attack routines as much as you like!
prototype00
Oh, is there any RAW on that point? As far as I can tell, there isn't. We're told that what is and isn't based on form "should be obvious". Otherwise, the DM has the final say. That's the only RAW on the matter. I don't find anything about the monk obvious on this point. For instance, what about the ability Diamond Body? Is that based on form? What about Quivering Palm? My point is that I can see plausible arguments for just about every monk feature as being "based on form".
EDIT: As for class features with +natural armour, I'm thinking specifically of Dragon Disciple. Your skin is described as getting harder. Clearly an example of a class feature "based on form".
Dave, if you want to argue this, might I suggest making another thread? I personally am not a fan of it when build threads derail with I say-he says discussions with neither side being able to change the opinion of the other.
prototype00
S'ok. I've said my piece! You won't hear another peep from me.
Slight nitpick, but aren't you using 2 magical traits, you can only have 1 trait of the same type.
Slight nitpick, but aren't you using 2 magical traits, you can only have 1 trait of the same type.
Ah, you are quite correct. Well, Focused mind can be replaced with just about any other trait really, but Magical Knack is too good, in my opinion.
prototype00
Hmm, plotting the strength version of this build based on a Master of Many Styles and druid.
The Janni Rush says that you do double unarmed damage at the end of a charge, if I have pounce, does this extend to every unarmed attack I take?
If so, Crane/Janni/Dragon could be a winning combination.
prototype00
Looks fantastic Zenith, thanks for including me in the wiki. :)
prototype00
Hmm, plotting the strength version of this build based on a Master of Many Styles and druid.
The Janni Rush says that you do double unarmed damage at the end of a charge, if I have pounce, does this extend to every unarmed attack I take?
If so, Crane/Janni/Dragon could be a winning combination.
prototype00
Have you looked at Tiger Style? The base style feat sucks as does the 2nd one, IMO. But Tiger Pounce is awesome and is not restricted to only unarmed strikes. As a MoMS, you can just take the base Tiger Style feat as one of your odd level general feats, and then immediately grab Tiger Pounce as a bonus feat.
I'd probaby do some mix of Crane Style + Crane Wing + maybe Crane Riposte / Snake Style + Snake Fang / Dragon Style (alone is good; don't care for the other 2, though Dragon Ferocity is ok, I guess) / Tiger Style + Tiger Pounce. I say "some mix of" because if you're multiclassing you won't be able to use 4 simultaneously.
But if the game allows for it, Guided AoMF is the way to go, I think. If not, you can get pretty good str from wild shape, a str build isn't so tough to do. Just be an Oread or some other +Str/Wis race and start w/ 18 in str after race and bump it every 4th level. You'll have a good str mod that way, w/o spending too much point buy.
Two points:
1) I don't know if you can take SF: Conjuration before you even have caster levels.
Is there anything stopping you in the rulebook from taking it?
2) The character sucks for the first 3 levels. Basically dead weight to any party. Hell I will even argue that it is basically dead weight until level 7. So basically it is a decent build if you start at 10+ levels, however it is a very painful build to play from 1, assuming you survive it will be nearly half the game before you can even fight in wild shape forms.
Based on the above I think the build is not viable.
I question your definition of suck, if a max statted Sensei (who is based off wisdom) is considered to be a bad choice. While said character will not contribute as much damage to the party, they are very hard to hit. They are useful also for the advice skill of the sensei, is the bard also a dead weight? Quite the opposite, I would expect.
The moment this build gets wildshape (lvl 7) it graduates to top tier damage for that level. So, I also take issue with your statement that this build is only good if you start play at 10+. Did you miss the effect of shaping focus, which basically puts me on par with a druid of the same level, are you going to tell me that they are dead weight until 7th level as well?
In any event, I shall probably post a strength build soon, which I suppose should be more to your liking, being a monk traditionalist and favoring damage dealing as you do.
Why not Unarmed Fighter instead of monk?
IIRC, the unarmed fighter's unarmed strike doesn't actually increase in damage. There is much to be said for full BaB I suppose, but I really did want the 12d8 in the end for this build.
prototype00
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DOTI must admit to be puzzled as to what you mean by that.
prototype00
When you post in a thread, it puts a small black dot on the thread in the general view of thread listings...
by not having anything meaningful to contribute, but wanting to keep an eye on the thread (because I like ur build) i typed "DOT" so I can easily see the threads I have posted in on the main page.
Its also the name of my favorite animaniac. and my dog.
Hmm, before I go too far in my MoMS/Druid build, can you sub in natural attacks freely into a full attack sequence? I.e. if I normally have two claw natural weapons could I use them in iterative combat (not flurry of blows).
prototype00
Hmm, before I go too far in my MoMS/Druid build, can you sub in natural attacks freely into a full attack sequence? I.e. if I normally have two claw natural weapons could I use them in iterative combat (not flurry of blows).
prototype00
If you mean iterative attacks from BaB, then no, you can't take natural attacks as part of that series of attacks.
If you're an 8th level monk with BaB +6/+1 and two claw attacks, you could:
A) Attack with two unarmed strikes at +6/+1
B) Attack with two claws at +6/+6
C) Attack with two unarmed strikes AND two claw attacks at +6/+1/+1/+1 (claws counting as secondary natural weapons)
D) Flurry of Blows with only unarmed strikes at +6/+6/+1/+1
You couldn't sub in claw attacks as part of A.
...I kinda lost track of where I was going. Does that even answer the question? :)
If you mean iterative attacks from BaB, then no, you can't take natural attacks as part of that series of attacks.If you're an 8th level monk with BaB +6/+1 and two claw attacks, you could:
A) Attack with two unarmed strikes at +6/+1
B) Attack with two claws at +6/+6
C) Attack with two unarmed strikes AND two claw attacks at +6/+1/+1/+1 (claws counting as secondary natural weapons)
D) Flurry of Blows with only unarmed strikes at +6/+6/+1/+1You couldn't sub in claw attacks as part of A.
...I kinda lost track of where I was going. Does that even answer the question? :)
Yeah, so I was asking if A was possible with 2 claws, so its not.
But I am blown away that C is possible still. Yeah, according to the wording you just can't use natural attacks as part as a flurry, but you can tack it onto a full attack sequence as secondary natural weapons (at -2 with multiattack).
Man, that just makes the strength build better and better (since you can sub them in at near full attack bonus.) I don't know how I feel about that.
prototype00
Bard is not dead weight because a bard, even if built not for combat is still contributing with spells. Your monk sensei can only inspire courage for levels + wis rounds, which if you are lucky might last for 2 fights. Certainly not an all day thing compared to a bard, I think if a bard isn't built for comabt would at least have lingering performance or at a minimum Maestro of the Society trait. As for skills he is not contributing near what a bard would be contributing towards skills.
So just comparing it to a non combat bard, your sensei monk can't guarantee full inspire courage buffs all day. Contributing 2 less skills and without versatile perfomance, also no spells. This is sucky already.
At level 7 you finally have wild shape. However your BAB is only a +5, you have no strength and without feral combat training you are not applying wisdom to your natural weapons on attack rolls. All you are doing is a single attack with unarm strike, dealing what 2d6 damage per hit. That is pretty bad, finally if you get to a level where WBL allows it you can get a guided Amulet of Mighty fists (I only guess this was level...
Point taken, point taken. *Though I question every monk having Maestro of the Society. What every successful monk is a pathfinder?* So this character comes into his own only at level 8 then, is what you're trying to say?
What, if anything, would you do to improve the situation? Saying something sucks is all well and good if you want to be a troll, but I would appreciate something constructive. *Though if you just want to be a Troll, thats fine as well, where is that report post button...?*
prototype00
You need to consider a strength build. With maybe another monk archetype, Master of Maneuvers as mentioned by above posters can potentially work. However, a monk/druid isn't a combo I have put much thought in, I don't think the synergy is there. Maybe a monk dip might work, I don't think a full multiclass monk/druid works.
It is easy to critique and don't take any offense, I think what you are trying to do is cool and is a good contribution to the community.
Sorry was a bit prickly there, I really shouldn't take criticism of the build quite so hard. I realize this character might have a hard time of it, especially in the early levels before they get wildshape.
What I was discussing with the rest was a Master of Many Styles build based on strength. That way you get to use your natural attacks at their full efficacy while having a full unarmed attack sequence as well, which the previous character cannot really do effectively.
The styles I'm looking at are Dragon (adds to unarmed damage), Janni (double unarmed damage on a charge), Crane (damage mitigation) and possibly Tiger (power attack penalties to AC instead of to hit) (though I'm only able to merge 3 styles by level 10, so some combination of the above dropping one). If I really wanted to stack the damage, I'd probably go Dragon, Tiger and Janni, though Crane, Dragon and Tiger does fit the nature theme better.
Maneuver master I hadn't really thought about, but this character really doesn't need to go big into maneuvers to do well.
I'm still working out the balance of monk vs druid levels to give the best result, I still favor half/half, but a dip isn't too bad an idea as well (but at high levels, you miss out on a lot of damage).
prototype00
Yeah, that's what I've been trying to advise...have as little monk as possible. The Monk's Belt does exist, and if you're willing to forfeit that final damage die increase, a few monk levels (I' sticking with 4 as the ideal; you need 3 for the feat anyway; gives you true strike via Qinggong Monk) + belt + monastic legacy basically gets you there. Because druid levels are so much better than monk levels....
Because druid levels are so much better than monk levels....
I'm torn here, basically wildshape is as good as it's going to get at 12th level (which Shaping focus covers nicely as an 8th level multiclass druid) so all we're talking about here is spells (which granted, I'm an old CharOP hand so I know that you don't just dump caster levels).
But tell me Stream, is there any spell at higher levels than 5 that really boosts the damage output of this build? I looked but nothing really caught my eye, it's all just blasty stuff and that isn't what this build is about.
With a 10th level monk, I get +4d8 unarmed damge per hit, extra feats, and for a MoMS, the ability to merge three styles into one as a swift action (lvl8).
prototype00
Well, if nothing else, CL 16 (in my sample build) is a +4 from Greater Magic Fang, freeing you up to put nothing but special properties on the amulet of mighty fists. CL also affects Barkskin and other buffs.
It is the spells I'm mostly thinking of. I guess if sheer melee DPR is all you care about, monk might be better for you. It just feels so wrong saying that. :)
I do think you should get in at least some druid first if doing MoMS. You want ot try and AVOID taking the initial "style feats" as monk bonus feats as much as possible, IMO. The ability to skip all pre-reqs for the other 2 feats in the chain (in particular, the 3rd feat in some chains is very nice but the 2nd is stinky, like Snake and Tiger) is a big boon to forfeit. So, for Crane Wing, for example, my typical suggestion is to enter your MoMS dip at ECL 3 or any odd level thereafter. That way you can get Dodge feat in advance (required for Crane Style), and then upon gaining the monk level and IUS, taking Crane Style as your level 3 feat and Crane Wing as your bonus feat.
Try spacing out the bonus feat levels in your progression to maximize this sort of thing. You only get 4 bonus feats if doing a 10/10 split, so plan them wisely.
Well, if nothing else, CL 16 (in my sample build) is a +4 from Greater Magic Fang, freeing you up to put nothing but special properties on the amulet of mighty fists. CL also affects Barkskin and other buffs.
You're selling yourself short here, Stream. With your suggested dip you can get CL 20 (+1 menhir savant, +2 magical knack, +1 ioun stone of appropriate color. ;)
It is the spells I'm mostly thinking of. I guess if sheer melee DPR is all you care about, monk might be better for you. It just feels so wrong saying that. :)
I know, right? This build has thrown established knowledge on its head!(no, not really). Were there any must have spells from those levels Stream? I've always thought that higher level druid spells lacked a bit of oomph.
I do think you should get in at least some druid first if doing MoMS. You want ot try and AVOID taking the initial "style feats" as monk bonus feats as much as possible, IMO. The ability to skip all pre-reqs for the other 2 feats in the chain (in particular, the 3rd feat in some chains is very nice but the 2nd is stinky, like Snake and Tiger) is a big boon to forfeit. So, for Crane Wing, for example, my typical suggestion is to enter your MoMS dip at ECL 3 or any odd level thereafter. That way you can get Dodge feat in advance (required for Crane Style), and then upon gaining the monk level and IUS, taking Crane Style as your level 3 feat and Crane Wing as your bonus feat.
Try spacing out the bonus feat levels in your progression to maximize this sort of thing. You only get 4 bonus feats if doing a 10/10 split, so plan them wisely.
That was the plan, take a couple of druid levels first to make the bonus feats count for more.
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Edit: I'm slightly worried about the number of spells a strength based character will end up with. I would get about 2 extra castings of Strong Jaw with a wis based character (5 all together) but with a strength based one, not so much. Might invest in a pearl of power or two I suppose.