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I just want to start by saying I love the Skull and Shackles adventure path. I love pirates, I love the encounters and I love the piratey pirateness of it.
The thing is their reasons for doing like half of the quests seem nebulous at best.
I noticed it with the Cracking the Rock in book 2. Why would the PCs go there and do that? Because it's supposed to be good luck? They get an Island Fortress out of the dealio, but later on they can win and island anyway... assuming they want to?
The campaign assumes that one of them will eventually become Hurricane King of the Shackles. Nothing in the player's guide points to that as being a character's ambition. There's not a lot to show that the Hurricane King even needs replacing.
Please don't get me wrong you've written a lot of amazing scenes, and the first adventure has the strongest opening I've ever seen. The issue is that once the PCs have their own ship they seem to be able to pirate about without issue during book 2. Why would they even need a letter of Marque in book 3?
They're pirates, since when do pirates need a piece of paper to tell them they are allowed to pirate.
"So we'll just continue doing what we're doing then?"
There were a lot of "musts" in the blurbs of the AP, but I thought the team would sort it out. So far though I don't think the motivations provided are going to cut it.
I need stronger motivations to A) tie the PCs together, and B) Propel them forward through the AP.
This will be done by 1) Rethinking the Traits in the Player's Guide and 2) Better using recurring villains an characters to entice or draw players into the amazing encounter sites peppered throughout the Shackles.
What do other people think, are they seeing the same issues I'm seeing? Or have they not progressed far enough for these issues to become apparent.
I noticed it with the Cracking the Rock in book 2. Why would the PCs go there and do that? Because it's supposed to be good luck? They get an Island Fortress out of the dealio, but later on they can win and island anyway... assuming they want to?
Agreed, it seems forced. I mean, the characters don't know they will be getting an island later on, so having the island might seem like a bigger plus to them, but then why isn't that part emphasized? Then the Lady refusing to enter an alliance except by marriage, forcing PCs who don't like that option to slaughter the inhabitants for good luck? And how a random superstition about a random island fort whose owner's don't seem to be particularly lucky can be an "oft quoted adage" is something I can't wrap my head around. In what circumstances would anyone use that saying?
It might be easier to just drop that motivation and go with something simpler. Kroop or Sandara explain that, to be respected Free Pirates, you need a base of operations. They know the Rock is poorly defended but in a good location, making it an ideal target. Or whatever else makes sense for an individual party.
The campaign assumes that one of them will eventually become Hurricane King of the Shackles. Nothing in the player's guide points to that as being a character's ambition. There's not a lot to show that the Hurricane King even needs replacing.
The Hurricane King bit is at the very end of the path, so trying to figure out motivation at this point would be difficult. I'd assume there will be good cause to hate him after he doesn't bother trying to raise a fleet to stop the Chelaxians. If none of the PCs want to be Hurricane King I'm sure they will have allies who would jump at the chance (Tessa Fairwind seems like an easy choice). Besides, why wouldn't a pirate want to be King? Seems like a pretty awesome job. I bet it comes with a sweet hat, too.
Please don't get me wrong you've written a lot of amazing scenes, and the first adventure has the strongest opening I've ever seen. The issue is that once the PCs have their own ship they seem to be able to pirate about without issue during book 2. Why would they even need a letter of Marque in book 3?
In book 2 it is mentioned that, as fledgling pirates, they are forced to hang around the outskirts of the Shackles. Presumably the letter of Marque lets them be official Shackles pirates, hanging out in all the cool ports? I can't really say, since I don't have Book 3 yet.
They're pirates, since when do pirates need a piece of paper to tell them they are allowed to pirate.
I'm sure Vikingson will pop up with exact references and such, but my understanding is that historically, a letter of marque was pretty darn important. It gave legal protections for the pirate/privateer, both from the legal owners of ships and from other governments. I don't really know the specifics of this particular letter, but I'd assume some sort of motivation for its acquisition is laid out in the AP. If not, that does seem like a serious omission.
I need stronger motivations to A) tie the PCs together, and B) Propel them forward through the AP.
This will be done by 1) Rethinking the Traits in the Player's Guide and 2) Better using recurring villains an characters to entice or draw players into the amazing encounter sites peppered throughout the Shackles.
I'm not sure I see the same problem. The PCs main motivation, as laid out in the Player's Guide, should be "I want to be a pirate!" Getting a base, plundering some ships, and gaining respect (from entering the Regata or acquiring a letter of marque) seem like they would be logical extensions of that goal. There are certainly some motivation gaps with specific events and plotlines, but I don't think specific traits or villians are absolutely necessary to cover them up. Honestly, I feel like this AP does a pretty good job (for an AP) of setting up the main villain. Though if he isn't enough, I'm sure setting one up wouldn't be hard. An expanded role for Isabella seems like an obvious choice as an interim adversary to keep things going.
What do other people think, are they seeing the same issues I'm seeing? Or have they not progressed far enough for these issues to become apparent.
I think you have some good points. At least in Book 2, the tone of many encounters came off as railroady, strict but odd motivations underlying them. Personally, I'd blame it on trying to stuff too many plots lines into one adventure. Cutting out the Rock and the Deep Platinum stuff might have allowed for greater focus and clearer motivations. I'll have to wait until seeing Book 3 before making judgments on whether this is a systematic problem with the path, but at this point I am still very much enjoying it and have high hopes for the rest of the adventures.
Of course, if you already have Book 3, you could give us more to discuss by passing on some delicious spoilers.
I'm starting this AP next week, and I'm thinking that unless they are free shackle pirates they are enemies of the Free Shackle pirates and will be attacked on site by them. If this happens I will make it really tough on the party by having the free shackle ships they run into a higher CR level than what the party is accumsted to at their level.
Why they want the the rock as a base of operations is they can see from that spot out into the shipping lanes and can identify and pick off easy targets. Im my campaign most ships coming through the lanes are in convoys and will be too tough for the party to handle unless they find a lone ship.
I haven't read the second book yet, but I have had some similar thoughts...I have this problem pretty often, actually. Not with Paizo specifically, but with RPGs, or even fantasy literature at large. In good campaigns it's too often 'We're-do-good-ers-doing-good-things!' which is bloody boring motivation even if it works, and in evil campaigns it's 'Kill-the-stuffs!' which is worse. There's too often no motivation whatever for a party to stick together, either.
The Wormwood Mutiny, I agree, has a very strong opening. Classic too, without being trite. We just started running it last week, and so far seem to be enjoying ourselves. I never force party balance, (mechanically, anyway - though I try to anticipate small group theory roles and balance their characters) so I've ended up with two fighters, a rogue, and a paladin.
Warning : spoiled thoughts!
I'm hoping that I can make them want to follow Sandara, and then set her up as directly opposed to Harrigan. There are three major players, essentially - Shackles, Cheliax, and Rahadoum. Each of these, it would seem, has the potential for helpful and hinderful encounters - which is awesome, as I'm trying to run a very neutral game, where actions are more telling than alignments, and there's always the chance for a double-cross.
All of their motivations have to be selfish for this to work. Selfish motivations aren't a bad thing by definition, and they work so much better. If I had the Traits to rethink, I'd want to base them on reasons to stay in the Shackles - reasons to require that freedom and acceptance (or total ignorance, which sometimes counts for the same). Have the Shackles represent, to them, a new life. Then make Harrigan's betrayal and the impending Chelish invasion a personal threat to their way of life. That said, I'm not sure how or where to work up to their knowledge of this betrayal because I haven't read the rest of the AP. I'm hoping to keep a step ahead of my players, at least.
For the smaller encounters, I'm hoping to stoke their interest with information. I may have to add some characters or sub-plots for this to work, and I'm hoping that I can wrap those back around to Harrigan. The former captain of the Man's Promise, for example - she's going to survive, and may put in a curious glimpse here or there, so that the PCs begin to wonder what she's doing. They may follow her into this area or that one. Likewise, there may be rumors of another deserting Chelish crew - following in the footsteps of Endymion - which the PCs may decide to help or hinder, or simply follow to see what happens. I may relocate some encounters, and have them shipwrecked into them, having to explore to find supplies, and then throwing in some curiosities along the way.
The letters of marque...will have to be a political decision, if they want them at all. I don't know enough about the situation, yet. Come to that, I'm not sure at all how helpful this little ramble has been. It's only broad notions, as those are all I have so far. I have to see what the PCs do and hope that I have enough knowledge and foresight to develop that well. : /
Still, best of luck to ye mate, and I'll be very interested to follow this thread, and perhaps add something more substantial to it, as the AP progresses.
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I also ran into the same issue; however, it's an opportunity not a hindrance; although if you are strapped for time it might be. :P
Even though this is an AP, you will have to fill in the blanks to support your individual group. Crafting your own story out of the information that is provided is a very rewarding experience in and of itself. If you don't like what they wrote, you can essentially change the story line a little bit so that it fits your individual parties needs without "railroading" them.
I start my game next week, but I had each player write down a detailed background. I told them if they didn't want to use the traits out of the player's guide they don't need to, but I made sure that each of them read through the traits to give them an idea of what's going on. I also wrote up about 500 words on Port Peril as well as major information/rumors. From what I wrote some of the players went off on how their character will ask. For example one of the players made a character that would help them win the race they have every year. His story line is pretty good, and his character alone will help push the other characters towards getting the Rock. Which is going to be a bit different than a reason in the AP; however, the encounters and memorable moments should still be there!
Good luck! I hope it goes well for you!
Plus there is another option for the PCs, take on the Shackles! That was one of the first thoughts that popped up in my head. Instead of signing up with the Shackles, side with Cheliax and launch raids on pirate ships. Perhaps they want revenge on Harrigan for their shanghaiing and were never really inclined to be Shackles pirates. This can be a kind of reverse S&S with the characters getting granted a base by Cheliax and eventually bringing down the Shackles and setting themselves up as lords
of the area.
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Thanks for the input everybody. This has all sparked an idea.
The idea that I'm thinking of using is that the PCs were all sailors and passengers on a merchant vessel. They are at the Formidably Maid holding a wake for their Captain who went down with his ship, sunk by the Chelish Navy for "not having the right papers."
The irony is that their old captain was an old pirate "gone straight", with the favors he was owed in the Shackles he'd have turned a tidy profit. By writing a thirst for vengeance against Cheliax right into the PCs history it gives the PCs a) motivation to gain power and prestige and "legitimacy" within the Shackles, you can't take down an enemy navy on your own after all.
I might even start the PCs off clinging to debris from their old ship, starving and thirsty. They can each tell their tale of why they were on the ship. Another day passes and they can make Fort Saves highest sees a ship on the horizon with a Dragon on the prow before they pass out.
Then the AP begins as assumed.
I'll be posting my "slightly altered" campaign traits to match this opening later. What do folks think so far?
I like it!!
I'd wanted to run a sailing ship or pirate based campaign for a long time, so I jumped right into S&S as written as soon as it came out and have been enjoying it tremendously.
However, I almost wish now I'd waited a bit as there have been some marvelous ideas here for twists or alternate subplots that I wish I'd thought of before starting. The "shipwrecked sailors picked up by the Wormwood" idea is brilliant.
Ah, well....
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Captain Jonas Quim
While Jonas never gained a seat on the Pirate Council, he was well respected by practically every pirate in the Shackles. Captain Quim was fair to his crew and feared by his enemies. Many pirates vied to serve on Captain Quim's crew, and a few of the more influential pirates in the Shackles have served under him at one point or another.
So it came as a surprise to the Pirate Lords of the Shackles that Quim had decided to go legit. Squibbing his ship The Misty Mourner and taking on a new name Captain Quib renamed himself Captain Shamus Hunglar Ackles (Cap'n Shackles). Still in possession of his letter of Marque from the Hurricane King Quib was one of the few traders relatively safe to sail the Shackles without fear of predation (and more than capable of defending himself should trouble occur).
The Prologue
It was during his second tour of the Shackles that trouble occurred, picking up new crew and passengers (the PCs) on his journey Captain Quib was boarded at the edge of the Shackles by a Chelish Naval ship. Quib showed them his official papers, and everything seemed to be in order. Until the moment when the Chelish Captain boarded his own boat and ordered all of his cannons to fire. (I'm using Gunpowder in the Shackles).
The ship was being blown to smithereens. The captain ordered everyone to the boats. Determined to go down with his ship the Captain in a final act of retribution lit the powder in his own hold . Blasting The Misty Mourner to bits. In the middle of the ocean, with no land in site, the Chelish naval vessel The Envy sailed away leaving those floating in the ocean to drown, die of exposure or starve.
Changing the Traits
The traits work as written simply change the last paragraph in each trait thusly.
Ancient Explorer
Barroom Talespinner
Besmara's Blessing
Buccaneer's Blood:
Dockside Brawler:
Eye for Plunder:
Ilizmagorti Native:
Peg Leg:
Ship's Surgeon:
Touched by the Sea:
This is fabulous!
I think it kind of goes without saying that the PC's WANT to be pirates, otherwise they never would have bothered with thhis particular AP to begin with... everything flows from there.
But, ummm... Spoilers?
Still awaiting Volume 3 in the mail guys.
Has anyone tried combining part one of Serpent's Skull with Skull & Shackles? Instead of using Bonewrack and Windward Isles, use Smugglers Shiv as a combination of the two.
Either have The Man's Promise be more damaged in the storm than in the book, or just have Mr. Plugg maroon the PC on Smuggler's Shiv. Use the lighthouse at the Thrunefang's camp as Tidewater Rock and have the cannibals be evil pirates who've captured the Lighthouse/Keep. This turns Lady Smythee and her Retainers into surviving prisoners that have to be rescued and defer to the PC's out of gratitude. You'd probably have to drop the Caves of the Mother and Temple of Blood entirely though.
After the PCs take the Keep, then have them either finally repair the Man's Promise, or have Mr. Plugg sail back to the island to make sure the PCs are dead and have them fight it out over the ship.
Thanks for the input everybody. This has all sparked an idea.
The idea that I'm thinking of using is that the PCs were all sailors and passengers on a merchant vessel. They are at the Formidably Maid holding a wake for their Captain who went down with his ship, sunk by the Chelish Navy for "not having the right papers."
The irony is that their old captain was an old pirate "gone straight", with the favors he was owed in the Shackles he'd have turned a tidy profit. By writing a thirst for vengeance against Cheliax right into the PCs history it gives the PCs a) motivation to gain power and prestige and "legitimacy" within the Shackles, you can't take down an enemy navy on your own after all.
I might even start the PCs off clinging to debris from their old ship, starving and thirsty. They can each tell their tale of why they were on the ship. Another day passes and they can make Fort Saves highest sees a ship on the horizon with a Dragon on the prow before they pass out.
Then the AP begins as assumed.
I'll be posting my "slightly altered" campaign traits to match this opening later. What do folks think so far?
Very, very nicely done.
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I think it kind of goes without saying that the PC's WANT to be pirates, otherwise they never would have bothered with thhis particular AP to begin with... everything flows from there.
But, ummm... Spoilers?
Still awaiting Volume 3 in the mail guys.
Of course, but I need the PCs ambitions to be larger. They become pirates at level 3. They need more direction than "Be Pirates", they get there at the end of book one.
Revenge yourself upon Cheliax on the other hand requires the PCs actively seek out resources, legitimacy and allies. Suddenly "cracking the rock" isn't about luck it's about creating port safe from Chelish naval interference. Gaining a letter of Marque and a seat on the pirates council (book 3) is important because the PCs will be gaining influence for their eventual vengeance.
Couple of things, Harrigan is going to be the PCs Darth Vader to the player's Cap'n Quim (Obi Wan). Harrigan was once Quim's first mate, but mutinied entirely because he wanted a bigger cut. When they discover Harrigan's betrayal of the Shackles and showdown with the PCs will be all the sweeter.
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Has anyone tried combining part one of Serpent's Skull with Skull & Shackles? Instead of using Bonewrack and Windward Isles, use Smugglers Shiv as a combination of the two.
Either have The Man's Promise be more damaged in the storm than in the book, or just have Mr. Plugg maroon the PC on Smuggler's Shiv. Use the lighthouse at the Thrunefang's camp as Tidewater Rock and have the cannibals be evil pirates who've captured the Lighthouse/Keep. This turns Lady Smythee and her Retainers into surviving prisoners that have to be rescued and defer to the PC's out of gratitude. You'd probably have to drop the Caves of the Mother and Temple of Blood entirely though.
After the PCs take the Keep, then have them either finally repair the Man's Promise, or have Mr. Plugg sail back to the island to make sure the PCs are dead and have them fight it out over the ship.
That's not a bad idea, although I'd be worried that the "explore the Island" element might be repeated too much in Island of Empty Eyes. I'm still in planning stages at the moment, and I'll likely be stealing a lot of Voodoo Elements from Serpent's Skull.
Just noticed I used Quim, Quin and Quib in the above alteration and time has long since elapsed since I can edit it. That's what I get for posting during my lunch break...
Yikes. You might want to consider changing "Quim" to something else. Google it and you'll see what it's slang for. :-P
(This is all excellent stuff, btw!)
That's not a bad idea, although I'd be worried that the "explore the Island" element might be repeated too much in Island of Empty Eyes. I'm still in planning stages at the moment, and I'll likely be stealing a lot of Voodoo Elements from Serpent's Skull.Has anyone tried combining part one of Serpent's Skull with Skull & Shackles? Instead of using Bonewrack and Windward Isles, use Smugglers Shiv as a combination of the two.
Either have The Man's Promise be more damaged in the storm than in the book, or just have Mr. Plugg maroon the PC on Smuggler's Shiv. Use the lighthouse at the Thrunefang's camp as Tidewater Rock and have the cannibals be evil pirates who've captured the Lighthouse/Keep. This turns Lady Smythee and her Retainers into surviving prisoners that have to be rescued and defer to the PC's out of gratitude. You'd probably have to drop the Caves of the Mother and Temple of Blood entirely though.
After the PCs take the Keep, then have them either finally repair the Man's Promise, or have Mr. Plugg sail back to the island to make sure the PCs are dead and have them fight it out over the ship.
Since doing it this way assumes there's an active settlement on Smuggler's Shiv then a lot of the encounters based on shipwrecks can be dropped and the exploration streamlined, as it can be assumed that the settlement at Tidewater Rock both warns ships with it's lighthouse (or uses it to lure ships in) and salvages any ships as soon as they wreck. Certain elements should probably be kept in (Kinkarian's ghost, the Silent Island, the Dryad) to give the inhabitants of Tidewater rock additional reasons to follow the PCs.
Heck, if you keep the Temple of Blood then you're giving the PCs a choice, either head south to Sargava and run through the Serpent's Skull adventure, or grab a ship and become pirates.
Hrm...blending in Serpent's Skull is a fantastic idea to keep in reserve! I'm thinking that some various elements of S&S may or may not suit as I encounter them, and having a few good adventures to hand it reassuring.
As to establishment, I've been thinking...I may not allow my PCs to progress so readily as all that. I kind of like the Firefly feel to being 'small fries' even after they're clearly more capable than many of the higher-ups. Having to deal with insults, double-crosses, and generally disparaging behavior from Cheliax, Rahadoum, and the Shackles, whilst building up a reputation with all three.
By the way, as much as I love this AP - not a fan of the Infamy system. I'll have to rewrite that bugger almost entirely.