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So, I just wanted to make sure this is good to go RAW.
If you take exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword, you can wield it in one hand. This means it is a 1d10 one handed weapon. So then I could increase its size and wield it in two hands. This makes it a 2d8 weapon with a -2 on attack. Then using the Titan mauler archtype's second level ability Jotungrip I can then wield this large bastard sword in one hand for an additional -2. Which then means I can increase the sword's size yet again for a 3d8 two handed sword that has a cumulative -6 penalty to hit. Then with Vital Strike, Imp VS, and Greater VS this weapon hits at a 12d8 correct?
To sum up...
Hand_____Feat/Ability_____Penalty______Damage
_2__________None_________None________1d10
_1______Exotic Wep Prof____None________1d10
_2______Size Increase_______-2_________2d8
_1________Jotungrip________-4_________2d8
_2______Size Increase_______-6_________3d8
_2_______Vital Srike_________-6_________6d8
_2_______Improved VS_______-6_________9d8
_2________Greater VS________-6_________12d8
Also fun things I am considering are feats (e.g. furious finish, etc.)
Depending on the GM, you might be able to finagle the 2d8 bastard sword, but not the huge sized bastard sword. A medium character can't wield a large sized greatsword, because the weapon is already a two-handed weapon.
Think of them as tiers. Dagger -> Short sword -> Longsword -> Greatsword Where the process ends.
Sorry, that trick is Rangers-Only and that is limited to Lead Blades usage. You can 2h the large Bastard Sword (since it's a 1h with EWP), Lead Blades, and then VS. You can even throw in an Enlarge Person on top, which gets you another size category.
@ Tels- I believe RAW I can use a 2d8 Bastard sword in two hands (no finagling required) ;) according to the Core rulebook page 144. If I can wield a weapon one handed, I can wield the same weapon in two hands if it is one size bigger with a -2 penalty. The example they use is a medium one handed weapon being used as a two handed weapon for a small creature. I use a large one handed weapon for a two handed weapon for a medium creature. Therefore, 2d8 bastard sword in two hands with the exotic weapon proficiency. (and a -2 to the attack roll)
@ Red Dog- I see your point. However, if that were the case, the maximum penalty I could accrue is a -2 (greatsword/axe in one hand).... therefore the very next ability of the Titan Mauler (Massive Weapons) is rendered two-thirds useless... (at 18th level this ability provides a reduction in penalties of -6, coincidence?)
Since the core rulebook (p144) says that if the size of a weapon would increase it beyond two-handed then it cannot be wielded, and there is no counter to this found in the Titan Mauler rules, how do you interpret the usage of Massive Weapons?
Sorry, that trick is Rangers-Only and that is limited to Lead Blades usage. You can 2h the large Bastard Sword (since it's a 1h with EWP), Lead Blades, and then VS. You can even throw in an Enlarge Person on top, which gets you another size category.
How is it Rangers only? What are Lead Blades? (what book are those in) Forgive my ignorance :) and ooooooooh enlarge person >:)
I believe Titan Mauler originally allowed larger weapons, but the errata/nerfed it to stop that.
Lead Blades is a Ranger spell that increases your melee weapon damage dice by one step. So large Bastard Sword = 2d8 Lead Blades = 3d8 Enlarge Person = 4d8 Vital Strike 8d8 Imp. VS 12d8 Grt. VS 16d8.
So what I think you are trying is the following:
Medium Bastard Sword 1-handed: 1d10 (requires exotic weapon proficiency)
Large Bastard Sword 2-handed: -2attack, 2d8damage (still requires EWP)
Large Bastard Sword 1-handed: -2attack, 2d8damage (still requires EWP and jotungrip).
Technically doable since a Bastard Sword is technically a 1-Handed Weapon that requires a feat to use 1-handed. However, I would have to think about the balance questions in my own games before I allowed it. On the face of it...a -2 attack and a feat requirement is reasonable when compared against 2d6, no attack penalty and no feat requirement.
Oh, you cannot combined Jotungrip with Titan Mauler's other ability: Massive Weapons. Thus the only size increases you can get would be from spells/effects such as enlarge person or lead blades.
Lead Blades is a personal spell available to rangers that increases the damage size of a melee weapon 1 size (without increasing the weapon size thus it stacks with size changes).
- Gauss
Actually there is another way to do that. You can use the Psionics Unleashed Half-giant, permanent enlarge person, exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword) and use a too-large weapon. this gives you;
normal bs damage: 1d10
Half-Giant: 2d8
Enlarge : 3d8
Oversized weapon: 4d8
then add in vs and you can effectivly make that 12d8 a hit.
going further and going as a build that I did, change that out for a katana, go two handed fighter with power attack, vs, death or glory and Improved Critical feat, a few critical masteries, and a corrosive/flaming/icy burst katana you got a recipe for one huge wallop.
For a lvl 16 fighter here goes...
your base damage drops down to 4d6 but you crit 1/3 of the time and when you do, it goes something like this;
4d6 X 4 =12d6 (vs)
+4d6=16d6 (crit)
+3d6=19d6 (corrosive/flaming/icy damage)
+3d10=19d6 +3d10 (corrosive/flaming/icy critical damage)
thats your base damage, now the additions.... this is only a rough estimate and is actually a little low;
bab=16
power attack=15 (10 plus 1/2 for two handed weapon)
improved power attack=5
Death or glory=6 against a large target
weapon training=3
strength (wanna say 20?)=15 (10 plus 1/2 for two handed weapon)
over hand chop=5
total = 65
now your hitting for 19d6 +3d10 +65 for a single hit 1/3 of the time...
that makes an average of... 137 damage...
that makes for pretty good dpr considering you can still move during that round.
have fun!
Fyi if you're going after lead blades, you can get it quicker as a level 2 metal oracle.
A Wand of Lead Blades works just fine with UMD.
- Gauss
The iconic barbarian character, who appears in many AP's uses a large bastard sword two-handed.(she has the exotic weapon proficiency feat)
+1
See also the 2nd post in this thread.
Ruyan.
Blackbloodtroll, my understanding of Jotungrip is that a weapon must be able to be held two-handed by you. A large longsword would qualify as a two-handed weapon.
Now, if we agree on that point I can see where there is an argument to be made for allowing the 1-handed bastard sword, upsized to large which then makes it a 2-handed weapon (all without even touching Titan Maulers' abilities).
At that point it is a 2-handed weapon by the rules. And thus, I can see how Jotungrip should apply.
- Gauss
So, I see the Errata disallows my initial idea. (RAW and apparently RAI) I can accept that. That still allows for cool TWF with greatswords. :)
But then what is Massive Weapons for? You still can't wield anything larger than a two handed weapon (implying a maximum penalty of -2). So what does the Massive Weapons ability even do? Remove a whopping -2 penalty by the time you are level 6 and then it is useless for the rest of its supposed benefit? In what situation could you use the full 6 reduction to a penalty?
I mean I suppose you could wield a Huge Light weapon getting the best possible damage from that of 2d6 bringing the penalty up to -4 (so great, Massive Weapons allows me at 9th level to use a greatsword non-proficiently) And that still doesn't give me the ability to use the final 2 reduction in penalty.
So, I see the Errata disallows my initial idea. (RAW and apparently RAI) I can accept that. That still allows for cool TWF with greatswords. :)
But then what is Massive Weapons for? You still can't wield anything larger than a two handed weapon (implying a maximum penalty of -2). So what does the Massive Weapons ability even do? Remove a whopping -2 penalty by the time you are level 6 and then it is useless for the rest of its supposed benefit? In what situation could you use the full 6 reduction to a penalty?
I mean I suppose you could wield a Huge Light weapon getting the best possible damage from that of 2d6 bringing the penalty up to -4 (so great, Massive Weapons allows me at 9th level to use a greatsword non-proficiently) And that still doesn't give me the ability to use the final 2 reduction in penalty.
PS Thanks for all the input! :)
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PS Thanks for all the input! :)
If you like your light weapons to be wielded as Two-handed weapons, you could definitely find use for the ability. For example:
A dagger sized for a medium character is light in a medium character's hand. A dagger sized for a large creature is one-handed in a medium character's hand (apply a -2 penalty to all attack rolls with this dagger, for it is inappropriately-sized by one category in relation to a medium creature). A dagger sized for a huge creature is two-handed in a medium character's hands (apply a -4 penalty to all attack rolls with this dagger, for it is inappropriately-sized by two categories in relation to a medium creature). Any larger than this and the dagger is impossible for a medium character to wield.
As for the why anyone would count on wielding huge-sized light weapons, I couldn't say....
EDIT: Flavor-wise, as these barbarians fight giants and large creatures all of the time, the ability to use weapons larger than them from the bodies of their enormous opponents, whether it's a tactically sound plan or not, the mechanics fit this well.
I was always more under the impression of a large dagger is equal to a shortsword, while a huge dagger is a longsword and a gargantuan dagger is a greatsword.
When you look at the Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage you see 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6 which leads me to believe the previously mentioned progression is correct.
One of these days I'm gonna TWF bastard swords, -4 TWF penalty be damned.
I know a guy that my group now refuses to play with because of very piss poor attitude during gaming. In 3.5 he played a Kensai that would TWF with bastard swords.
I'm fairly certain he wasn't playing the game correctly, because he swears he could have a 35 AC at level 7, with 21 attacks with the highest at +20 to hit. But, he's very much so a min-maxer and throws a hissy-fit if his character is 'teh m0s7 Ub3r' one on the board.
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So, I see the Errata disallows my initial idea. (RAW and apparently RAI) I can accept that. That still allows for cool TWF with greatswords. :)
But then what is Massive Weapons for? You still can't wield anything larger than a two handed weapon (implying a maximum penalty of -2). So what does the Massive Weapons ability even do? Remove a whopping -2 penalty by the time you are level 6 and then it is useless for the rest of its supposed benefit? In what situation could you use the full 6 reduction to a penalty?
I mean I suppose you could wield a Huge Light weapon getting the best possible damage from that of 2d6 bringing the penalty up to -4 (so great, Massive Weapons allows me at 9th level to use a greatsword non-proficiently) And that still doesn't give me the ability to use the final 2 reduction in penalty.
The Massive Weapons ability was messed up as published, and actually doesn't do anything at all. Here's a thread where the original writer of the archetype talks about it and suggests an unofficial rewording to fix the problem:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4qa7?Titan-Mauler-what-can-and-cant-it-wield#21
There has been no official errata to fix it as far as I know.
@ Tels- Just for clarification, :) according to the Core rule book, the progression is Light > One-Hand > Two-Hand. So, the end result is still the same, the starting value is just different. Best case light weapon is 1d6 damage. So progression is 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6. Maximum penalty is still only -4 though, so the question still remains.
How do you get the full benifit of the Massive Weapons ability?
@ Trinite- AHA! Exactly what I was looking for! So RAW, Massive weapons does nothing. BUT, RAI it increases the size you may wield.
I think this maybe needs an Errata.
Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for all the help. You have once again proven that the message boards are an invaluable resource. :)
EDIT: Flavor-wise, as these barbarians fight giants and large creatures all of the time, the ability to use weapons larger than them from the bodies of their enormous opponents, whether it's a tactically sound plan or not, the mechanics fit this well.
Regardless of fluff (which I am all for in most cases) it sounds to me like this archetype just creates dead levels from all of the threads I have seen on the topic.
The Massive Weapons ability was messed up as published, and actually doesn't do anything at all.
Massive Weapons doesn't do what you want, but it does do something. It reduces the inappropriate size penalty.
A medium level 12 Titan Mauler can wield a huge Handaxe as a two-handed weapon with no penalty.
The increased penalty reduction after level 12 has no real effect, which might be what you mean?
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The Massive Weapons ability was messed up as published, and actually doesn't do anything at all.Massive Weapons doesn't do what you want, but it does do something. It reduces the inappropriate size penalty.
A medium level 12 Titan Mauler can wield a huge Handaxe as a two-handed weapon with no penalty.
The increased penalty reduction after level 12 has no real effect, which might be what you mean?
It doesn't do what its author intended it to do, which is to allow you to effectively use larger weapons that you couldn't otherwise use at all.
Hmmm, BBT, it appears you are correct by RAW. However I believe it is the intent to disallow weapons that a normal wielder cannot use. Ahhh well.
- Gauss