That's completely disgusting and repulsive.
And I say that as a conservative evangelical Christian who thinks that homosexual acts are a sin. If it's any consolation, I'm sure that kind of attitude represents a very small minority in the Church. I've attended half a dozen different Baptist churches in my life, and never seen anything remotely that offensive*. One of them even had an openly gay (celibate) man serving as an associate pastor, and I never heard a bad word about him.
*If we're talking aesthetically offensive music, then I can't say that I've been so lucky...
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If it helps, this is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Number 2358, says regarding homosexuality:
“They [homosexuals] do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”
So homosexuals will indeed go to Heaven, at least according to Holy Mother Church.
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I know, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. In no way it compares to how homosexuals must feel about it, but I too am deeply offended and torn when the name of Christ is used to harbour hate.
He was pretty specific about the three fundamental and universal rules: "Love God, love yourself, love your neighbour". If the teaching is breaking any of the three principles, then it is time to start thinking about what you are doing and what you really believe in.
Its a trial of faith for me. Holy s%@*!
While I don't mind the being hated part(I'm used to it) my heart breaks for the kids. I'm gonna say a prayer tonight that whatever these children come to believe about life that God will ensure their reasoning isn't hate based, despite the way they were raised.
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If it helps, this is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Number 2358, says regarding homosexuality:
“They [homosexuals] do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”
So homosexuals will indeed go to Heaven, at least according to Holy Mother Church.
Only if they abstain from homosexual behavior or at least confess and repent.
So yes, you can be a homosexual and the Church will accept you, as long as you agree that homosexual acts are sinful and try to refrain from them.Those of us who think the homosexual acts and relationships are just as good and wholesome and healthy as heterosexual ones, we wouldn't fare so well.
By the way, is it sinful to believe something the Church considers a sin isn't a sin, even if you don't actually do it yourself?
You might want to read the stated expressed opinion of the church. It does not seem to coincide with what your opinion of what the church's stance is. I have bolded it for your reading convenience.
Well, if it's any consolation, Prussian Blue grew out of it once they got away from their mother and went to college. Maybe this kid will, too.
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Come to the darkside. We have cookies
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When you read all that contextually, it's a pretty easy decision: follow these rules and guidelines, or chose a different faith.
I recognize, being a nonbeliever, that's easy for me to say.
Not so easy when you're 12 years old, just starting to figure out you really are attracted to the same sex and your parents are fanatical about the faith.
Ahhh...yes.
Well, there is a reason that 91% of the non-Christian US public associate the church primarily as "antihomosexual". In other words, hate-based. Good job, US church.
Statistic gained from here; "How to win a culture war and lose a generation". The article is excellent in total and deserves a read.
Speaking as a non-american agnostic, I feel disappointed that this sort of crap still exists, and wonder why anyone who calls themselves christian can see this withotu publically decrying it.
There seems to be two kinds of upbringing that truly scar people for life: First, the one where a paranoid or otherwise psychotic single parent mistreats or neglects their child due to their mental disorder. Second, the one where mentally healthy people actively mistreat their child because their congregation says it's okay and in accordance with God's will. In most other circumstances, people find ways of consoling themselves with their upbringing eventually.
Yeah. An organization that claims to work for humanity and good in the world REALLY ought to know better. And that it's an old organization is no kind of excuse. And... if they consider the consequences, I have never seen such incandescent hatred as a friend of mine showed when he described how the catholic church had treated him because he was gay. The RCC ought to understand that this issue will not go away, and that every moment of this behaviour from the church breeds people who consider it a central political fact of their political conviction that the RCC is evil and ought to be eradicated.
The article itself mentions the "Church"
Which is extremely vague I am not certain it means all Christianity. I would love to actually see the study that was done.
All of those groups handle such issues extremely differently much in the way Islam and Jeudaism are different from Christinity even though one could say they all use the same book.
As well it seems forcused in particular on North Carolina so I wonder where this study was done as well. Certianly seems important to explore before saying 91% of the country feels this way about all forms of Christianity. Especially when there are branches which do not espouse to any of the tenants spoken about in the article.
You see, part of your problem is that you are making the distinction between various sects within the Christian faith, while outsiders don't care about your distinctions and link everyone in the group together. It is a PR problem for less radical groups that they are failing to deal with.
As far as the study, all i can really find is that it was done by a christian organization, The Barna Group,(they don't identify a specific faith). The organization provides research statistics for churches to try to better target add campaigns for recruitment, as well as analysing trends through polling.
You can find their website on the article here and they have links to more data.
I wonder if this actually does have an effect on budget and makes people pay more taxes because of public programs for mental health. I am not sure it is measurable though. IF someone is driven crazy enough it could cause them to go onto disability.
See I have a different view when it comes to Christiantity and Religion. I define Christianity as having a firm belief and faith in God and that if you live a good life that causes no harm to others or youself you'll get the ultimate reward of going to heaven. I consider it complete BS, but it's how I define it. Religion, particularly organized religion of ALL sorts, I define as an organization created by those who wish to control the masses through a manipulation of ones belief and faith in God.
Now as far as the stance on RELIGION being anti-homesexual is something to which I can agree. However, not so with Christianity.
I have no shame in admitting that I am uncomfortable with same sex relations in regard to men (myself a straight male). I even go so far as to tell my sons that boys don't kiss boys and get upset when they decide to playfully start kissing me. It scares me to think if one or both grow up and figure that they are attracted to men. I don't know how I'll respond and react. I hope I am strong enough to accept it, since I won't have any control of it anyway, but I just don't know.
My own personal stance on being gay, is live your life however you deem necessary to be happy so long as it causes no intential harm to anyone else (something I readily admit that I may be doing with telling my sons that boys don't kiss boys). And most of all, if anything comes from a church it is coming from organized religion - don't listen to it if it doesn't jive with your own personal beliefs. God doesn't care how anyone lives there life so long as you don't violate the 10 commandments God gave us.
You see, part of your problem is that you are making the distinction between various sects within the Christian faith, while outsiders don't care about your distinctions and link everyone in the group together. It is a PR problem for less radical groups that they are failing to deal with.
Well, considering there is about 2 billion Christians of literally tens of thousands of denominations living around the world, I think that lumping them all together is, at the very least, a notoriously improper way of judging the matter. Even in forums like these, which are quite above the average level of internet education and knowledge, have an extremely skewed vision of Christianity that hardly fits with the reality in the rest of the world. For instance, the US is probably the only place in the world where things like Creationism vs Evolution or Religion vs Science is any sort of issue, yet the perception one gets from debates in this and other mainly American sites is that atheists/agnostics view all Christians as people who fear toasters.
So trying to better clarify what we're talking about is not a problem, but a necessity.
am not sure it is my problem if I make a distinction. I think you should make a distinction if you are going to label a group.
If the message you want to send is not the message that is being recieved that is more the problem of the person sending the message than the person who doesn't care about the message's contents recieving it. It is not the responcibility of the observer to come away with the opinion that the observed wants to send.
Most people who are uneducated will always lump groups together it is easier to make an argument sort of like saying Islam is represented by S&@%te splinter groups. I find this lazy though as far as PR problems I don't think they are quite what it is made out to be at least for the church I belong too but in general alot of orginizations I think are finding trouble with the younger generations and people joining...I don't think that is a a new thing. The younger generations in general are selfish not that this generation is any different than those people. Younger people are inherently selfish because they are figuring out what is going on and need to explore themselves to see what is important to them. Many people don't "find" religion until they are older and have experienced life and know what they like or don't like in life. So I am not sure I am convinced this study says all that much only that people who are not interested or have not taken the time to explore religion follow by what they see in the news with out spoken splinter groups who make the most noise as that is what Christian is. So inthat case I would agree with you the PR is bad. Yet how many of those people are really going looking to find religion and exploring it for themselves and thus are people who are being turned away? If you aren't thirsty you are not going to want a glass of water.
Stop applying studies on generation X to generation Y or Z. Recent studies have shown that today's young people are at lower levels than their parents or grandparents as far as selfishness, risky behavior (lower teen pregnancy, rates of STDs, levels of sexual behavior), and all kinds of things that are routinely attributted to "kids these days." The same cannot be said for adults who are currently destroying this world.
This study also is following people raised christian and polls opinions on why they left the church. Its being done by a research group that is trying to prevent people from leaving the church, so they have a bias in finding actual data. Their summaries, which do not contain complete data because they are trying to sell their book, are well written and fairly insightful. All I can assume from your comments is that you do not want to admit there may be a problem.
You see, part of your problem is that you are making the distinction between various sects within the Christian faith, while outsiders don't care about your distinctions and link everyone in the group together. It is a PR problem for less radical groups that they are failing to deal with.Well, considering there is about 2 billion Christians of literally tens of thousands of denominations living around the world, I think that lumping them all together is, at the very least, a notoriously improper way of judging the matter. Even in forums like these, which are quite above the average level of internet education and knowledge, have an extremely skewed vision of Christianity that hardly fits with the reality in the rest of the world. For instance, the US is probably the only place in the world where things like Creationism vs Evolution or Religion vs Science is any sort of issue, yet the perception one gets from debates in this and other mainly American sites is that atheists/agnostics view all Christians as people who fear toasters.
So trying to better clarify what we're talking about is not a problem, but a necessity.
No, because we are talking about people's perceptions of Christians. And part of the point is that non-christians do not care if they are talking about Roman Catholics, Southern Babtists, Evangelicals, Orthadox, Johovas Witnesses, Jews for Jesus, Episcapaleans, Unitarians, or any of the dozens of other faiths. Non-catholics don't make the distinction, and unless people within those groups actively advertise their distinct beliefs to outsiders they will continue to be grouped together with the loudest voices. And the loudest voices are the official Roman Catholic doctrine from the Pope and public talking head southern baptist preachers. And those voices and doctrine are filled with hate and non-acceptance.
I personally would be thrilled if all of the American churches withered up and blew away, but the article is about more than how non-Christians view Christianity.
Like others above, I can't verify the veracity of the statement, but:
"Later research, documented in Kinnaman’s You Lost Me, reveals that one of the top reasons 59 percent of young adults with a Christian background have left the church is because they perceive the church to be too exclusive, particularly regarding their LGBT friends. Eight million twenty-somethings have left the church, and this is one reason why."
Which, btw, doesn't sound at all like selfishness to me.
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Basically, my point is that until we start to see more stories like this, the Moral Majority will be the face of Christians to many outsiders.
Just testing.
Shi'ites.
Shiites.
S%@+ites.
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Most people who are uneducated will always lump groups together it is easier to make an argument sort of like saying Islam is represented by S!*$te splinter groups. I find this lazy though as far as PR problems I don't think they are quite what it is made out to be at least for the church I belong too but in general alot of orginizations I think are finding trouble...
I'm sorry, but how does selfishness correlate to religion? I suppose the extremely self-centred will deny the existence of any higher power simply because they cannot grasp the concept of an intelligence outside their own, but I don't think that's really a common thing. Many atheist and areligious people are quite charitable and kind (in my personal experience I have not seen any difference between those with and without religion).
While I don't mind the being hated part(I'm used to it) my heart breaks for the kids. I'm gonna say a prayer tonight that whatever these children come to believe about life that God will ensure their reasoning isn't hate based, despite the way they were raised.Its a trial of faith for me. Holy s%@*!
I'm sure these people are great representatives of the community.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Wo6ahRv8E
For instance, the US is probably the only place in the world where things like Creationism vs Evolution or Religion vs Science is any sort of issue.
The entire Muslim world also seems to be in various stages of schiziphrenia regarding that (link).
While I don't mind the being hated part(I'm used to it) my heart breaks for the kids. I'm gonna say a prayer tonight that whatever these children come to believe about life that God will ensure their reasoning isn't hate based, despite the way they were raised.Its a trial of faith for me. Holy s%@*!
I'm sure these people are great representatives of the community.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Wo6ahRv8E
What's the problem? People disagree with a hate mongering bigot grandmother.
There's no "attack" going on in this video. If there were, I'd be against it. Its a heated debate. You'll have a legit point when the LGBT community prevents the Religious Reich from getting married, causes Religious Reich teens to have significantly elevated homelessness and suicide, etc.
You're a long way from that.
In short your WRONG. I know folks out there are longing for identity. It's funny how you talk about the LGBT community like one would speak of an ethnic or racial group. It's also telling where the hate mongering spawns from when you evoke the word Reich to describe Christians. Shame on you Sir.
For instance, the US is probably the only place in the world where things like Creationism vs Evolution or Religion vs Science is any sort of issue.The entire Muslim world also seems to be in various stages of schiziphrenia regarding that (link).
That's not what schizophrenia means Kirth, I expected someone as educated as you to know better.
I watched the video on mute, and I saw no evidence of any attack.
The woman even seemed to enjoy the attention and being the focus of the protesters. Apparently, if some of the commentators on the video can be trusted, this is something she has done before.
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That's not what schizophrenia means Kirth, I expected someone as educated as you to know better.
Yeah, I should have specified "conventional misconception as most commonly-used," vs. "clinical definition, which is a lot different." But somehow saying "The Muslim world is DID about this" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
BTW, questioning someone's crap isn't "attacking" them except if you're intentionally trying to be sensational, hyperbolic, and soap-box-y. Otherwise, it's just "questioning," or "disagreement."
Like when I get called a "militant atheist" because I freely admit I don't believe in God, instead of hiding it. That's not militant. Blowing up buildings is "militant." I don't do that.