Old info can be disheartening when it isn't confusing.
I do wonder sometimes, with respect to sexuality and identity on all angles, if we will all one day be considered wrong.
Side mullets?!
Old info can be disheartening when it isn't confusing.
I do wonder sometimes, with respect to sexuality and identity on all angles, if we will all one day be considered wrong.
Obsolete.
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Just read about a transgender NPC in Dragon Age: Inquisition.
Huzzah for Izana from knights of sidonia as well, maybe?
Huzzah for Izana from knights of sidonia as well, maybe?
Huh, had not heard of that character. Is the series good?
They did it in mass effect as well, which was upsetting.
Kaiden was an idiot to pass up a Shepard - Liara threesome. I decline to save him every time because of it.
Huzzah for Izana from knights of sidonia as well, maybe?Huh, had not heard of that character. Is the series good?
Knights of Sidonia is on my short list of shows for which I'm eagerly awaiting the next season. If you have the opportunity, you owe it to yourself to try the pilot. :)
I’m inclined to agree with Rysky that a threesome is different from trying to represent a committed polyamorous relationship. Not that there shouldn’t be room for both in games that want to represent relationships in a more complex way, but it would take more careful writing than most games offer, and possibly a wider range of characters. There are practical limitations, of course, but having every NPC just fall into the most convenient category for one’s inclinations can be artificial, while how a game limits the range of possibilities has its own problems. (For example, functionally bi characters are practical, but don’t present monosexual queer folks with people like themselves, just like covering the mono bases doesn’t actually show bisexual folks in the world of the game.)
That is, how would characters and players distinguish between a game’s intimations of serious poly relationships, casual flings, and self-serving grasping at straws when a character is involved with more than one other character at a time? They would have to come up at different times, in different ways, and possibly with different characters, all of which require more permutations of plot and a willingness to let writers go crazy with the possibilities. I’m not sure which developers could really do it right at the moment. For instance, as much as I quite like the asari in the Mass Effect games, I do find them problematic, and I have to fill in what I think their attitudes to gender might be with headcanon, since I don’t think the games went into that in much detail, though that certainly changes what role the species plays in the world of the games. (Juvenile fantasy, or meditation on the nature of desire?) All that would have been needed to clear things up would be a few more lines in the background material or in dialogue text, so I’m not particularly hopeful that right now any developers would handle relationships not centred on a couple very well, but I can easily imagine writers awkwardly remembering all of a sudden that, right, this character is also part of this relationship.
I hope that things do improve, though I’m not sure where they might be improving at the moment. Anyway, these are just one monoamorous, romantic girl’s thoughts and best wishes that everyone will be able to see people like them, however they identify, respectfully represented in whatever media they’re interested in.
Hey, this is maybe not the perfect place for this question, but I couldn't think of a better one so please bear with me.
I'm a cis/straight male, age 42. I've been gaming with more or less the same crew for years now (some of them since high school). We're almost all cis/straight men.
A while back, a slightly younger (now 30-ish) gay guy joined our group. He's a great guy, and we all like him. He's pretty openly gay, or at least has been so with us since we met him. We're all cool with that and while there's some non-malicious joking back and forth, I've never gotten the impression that it's ever made anyone at the table uncomfortable (he starts it most of the time). He's been playing with us, on and off, for about a decade now.
We're about to start a new campaign, and he's made it a point to state that his new character for this campaign will be gay. While he's played at least one (female) character with an... unusual sexuality in the past, this is the first time he's made it a point that his character will be male and gay.
I don't really think that this is going to be much of an issue for the rest of us, and I'm not really asking what we should do or how we should deal with the situation. What I'm asking is this -- if you are a gay man, and were in the same situation, what kind of concerns would YOU have? I'm trying to look at it from his angle rather than my own.
I mean sure, I could just ask him, and I probably will -- but it wouldn't hurt to hear other opinions too, I'm thinking. For some reason I have a sense that his choosing to actually play an openly gay character is significant (he's previously played a lizardman and a female witch). This is mostly just a hunch on my part, but on the off chance that he's taking a risk here I'd like to have some idea of what his concerns might be.
Thanks in advance to any who might have some light to shed.
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I'm bi, and as a norm I shy away from playing bi or gay characters because it tends to disturb many of the str8 players. Most of the players I've been lucky enough to play with would not object, but they are used to not having to deal with my being a fence jumper. I shouldn't have to worry about it but its just easier to not push that envelope.
That your friend is willing to open up and play a character that is openly gay is quite a compliment. He trusts you guys to let him be himself. His concern is likely to be that one or more of you will make his character the butt of bad f#* jokes; or that you will treat his character like a caricature of a gay man. It will take some work on your part but make sure that the same opportunities that you would usually put into a game for str8 characters to have relationships and interactions with NPCs are there for him as well.
And definitely make sure that you talk to him about what he wants to do with his character. I hope he'll appreciate your wanting to work with him to work his character into the game fully.
I’m inclined to agree with Rysky that a threesome is different from trying to represent a committed polyamorous relationship. Not that there shouldn’t be room for both in games that want to represent relationships in a more complex way, but it would take more careful writing than most games offer, and possibly a wider range of characters. There are practical limitations, of course, but having every NPC just fall into the most convenient category for one’s inclinations can be artificial, while how a game limits the range of possibilities has its own problems. (For example, functionally bi characters are practical, but don’t present monosexual queer folks with people like themselves, just like covering the mono bases doesn’t actually show bisexual folks in the world of the game.)
That is, how would characters and players distinguish between a game’s intimations of serious poly relationships, casual flings, and self-serving grasping at straws when a character is involved with more than one other character at a time? They would have to come up at different times, in different ways, and possibly with different characters, all of which require more permutations of plot and a willingness to let writers go crazy with the possibilities. I’m not sure which developers could really do it right at the moment. For instance, as much as I quite like the asari in the Mass Effect games, I do find them problematic, and I have to fill in what I think their attitudes to gender might be with headcanon, since I don’t think the games went into that in much detail, though that certainly changes what role the species plays in the world of the games. (Juvenile fantasy, or meditation on the nature of desire?) All that would have been needed to clear things up would be a few more lines in the background material or in dialogue text, so I’m not particularly hopeful that right now any developers would handle relationships not centred on a couple very well, but I can easily imagine writers awkwardly remembering all of a sudden that,...
a semi throwaway conversation in mass effect 2 reveals that every race sees what they find attractive in the asari.
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Just read about a transgender NPC in Dragon Age: Inquisition.Two of them! Trans man and trans woman. Well drawn characters also whose presence in the plot does not revolve around being trans*, and who you probably won't even spot as such unless you take every dialogue option and get to know them. Also equal romance options for lesbian, gay, bi and straight. Bioware seriously rocks.
Wait, there's a trans woman in Inquisition? Where? I'm only 12 or 13 hours into the game, but I've already met Krem.
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Werebat, I think Usual Suspect covered things pretty well. In your discussion with the player, assess whether a romantic connection is something he wants for the PC (assuming romance fits into your games at all). If you find yourself needing gay/bi male NPCs for love interests, I recommend avoiding stereotypes there as well.
It sounds like the player trusts you all, so I would take that as a good sign.
As far as I know, the only transwoman character in Dragon Age is Maevaris Tilani, a Tevinter magister from the comics. She makes an appearance in the war table operations as a political ally against the Venatori in the Magisterium.
She does not appear in person, only via the operation descriptions and results messages.
I think Maevaris was originally supposed to appear within the game, but was cut for time. So, maybe she'll show up in a future DLC?
(And now I'm really wishing I had a console I could play this game on.)
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Trans friends: how do y'all feel about Krem being voiced by Jennifer Hale?
On the one hand, she's a great voice actor! She's so good as Shepherd that when my partner watched me play Mass Effect, she didn't even realize that you could choose between two genders for your character. On the other hand, Krem is a trans man being voiced by a woman. On the other, other hand, voice actors pretty frequently voice characters different from their own gender (although that might apply mostly to characters that aren't adults). Obviously, improvements could be made across the board when it comes to any industry hiring trans folks, but I'm wondering if this struck a specific nerve with anyone.
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Trans friends: how do y'all feel about Krem being voiced by Jennifer Hale?
On the one hand, she's a great voice actor! She's so good as Shepherd that when my partner watched me play Mass Effect, she didn't even realize that you could choose between two genders for your character. On the other hand, Krem is a trans man being voiced by a woman. On the other, other hand, voice actors pretty frequently voice characters different from their own gender (although that might apply mostly to characters that aren't adults). Obviously, improvements could be made across the board when it comes to any industry hiring trans folks, but I'm wondering if this struck a specific nerve with anyone.
Sure. And Jeffery Tambor is a good actor too. But I don't really like him portraying a trans character either.
Cis actors taking trans roles always rubs me the wrong way, because it feeds the self-fulfilling prophecy Hollywood hides behind of "We can't hire a trans actor for this role because there are no trans actors of note." Ninety-nine percent of the time, a trans actor can only be hired to portray a trans person to begin with, so to take the few trans roles available and give them to cis actors is shooting trans performers in the foot.
I think Krem is well-written, and the character is enjoyable. But having a cis woman portray a trans man takes a potential break-out job from a young trans actor, gives us a performance that rings a little hollow, and subtly reinforces the "really a woman" narrative trans men have to deal with.
But then, all that is my outsider perspective. The real opinions that matter are trans mens'.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Trans friends: how do y'all feel about Krem being voiced by Jennifer Hale?
On the one hand, she's a great voice actor! She's so good as Shepherd that when my partner watched me play Mass Effect, she didn't even realize that you could choose between two genders for your character. On the other hand, Krem is a trans man being voiced by a woman. On the other, other hand, voice actors pretty frequently voice characters different from their own gender (although that might apply mostly to characters that aren't adults). Obviously, improvements could be made across the board when it comes to any industry hiring trans folks, but I'm wondering if this struck a specific nerve with anyone.
Sure. And Jeffery Tambor is a good actor too. But I don't really like him portraying a trans character either.
Cis actors taking trans roles always rubs me the wrong way, because it feeds the self-fulfilling prophecy Hollywood hides behind of "We can't hire a trans actor for this role because there are no trans actors of note." Ninety-nine percent of the time, a trans actor can only be hired to portray a trans person to begin with, so to take the few trans roles available and give them to cis actors is shooting trans performers in the foot.
I think Krem is well-written, and the character is enjoyable. But having a cis woman portray a trans man takes a potential break-out job from a young trans actor, gives us a performance that rings a little hollow, and subtly reinforces the "really a woman" narrative trans men have to deal with.
But then, all that is my outsider perspective. The real opinions that matter are trans mens'.
This is pretty much the response that I've seen from other trans folks (although I haven't heard from any trans men on the issue--I could probably do some searching on Google or Tumblr on that, though). I was curious whether the fact that it was voice acting made any difference, though. If anything, actually, I feel like it would be easier to hire trans actors for voice acting since it only matters what you do with your voice.
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Trans friends: how do y'all feel about Krem being voiced by Jennifer Hale?
On the one hand, she's a great voice actor! She's so good as Shepherd that when my partner watched me play Mass Effect, she didn't even realize that you could choose between two genders for your character. On the other hand, Krem is a trans man being voiced by a woman. On the other, other hand, voice actors pretty frequently voice characters different from their own gender (although that might apply mostly to characters that aren't adults). Obviously, improvements could be made across the board when it comes to any industry hiring trans folks, but I'm wondering if this struck a specific nerve with anyone.
Sure. And Jeffery Tambor is a good actor too. But I don't really like him portraying a trans character either.
Cis actors taking trans roles always rubs me the wrong way, because it feeds the self-fulfilling prophecy Hollywood hides behind of "We can't hire a trans actor for this role because there are no trans actors of note." Ninety-nine percent of the time, a trans actor can only be hired to portray a trans person to begin with, so to take the few trans roles available and give them to cis actors is shooting trans performers in the foot.
I think Krem is well-written, and the character is enjoyable. But having a cis woman portray a trans man takes a potential break-out job from a young trans actor, gives us a performance that rings a little hollow, and subtly reinforces the "really a woman" narrative trans men have to deal with.
But then, all that is my outsider perspective. The real opinions that matter are trans mens'.
All this. I just wish we'd gotten Maevaris in this one because of how focused the negative stereotypes in the previous games were on trans women.
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There were no trans women in the franchise before Maevaris.
Saying that Serendipity was a drag queen and not a trans woman sex worker felt like an Author's Saving Throw to me - they made the distinction after getting backlash from the community for the "Awkward..." comment that Snarky!Hawke could make during the society ball, and not at any time within the text itself (and also before the development of reliable and effective oral estrogens, the distinction in Western culture between drag queens and trans women tended to be a bit arbitrary). The extratextual evidence has to be discarded because it's not consistent with the evidence of the text.
But at least Serendipity had a female body - the "female" prostitutes (scare quotes and all) in the first game were like watching a religious-right idea of what trans women are like be thrown onto the screen.
So while it might be technically true that trans women don't appear in games 1 and 2, stereotypes associated with trans women do and they are hurtful.
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Trans friends: how do y'all feel about Krem being voiced by Jennifer Hale?
On the one hand, she's a great voice actor! She's so good as Shepherd that when my partner watched me play Mass Effect, she didn't even realize that you could choose between two genders for your character. On the other hand, Krem is a trans man being voiced by a woman. On the other, other hand, voice actors pretty frequently voice characters different from their own gender (although that might apply mostly to characters that aren't adults). Obviously, improvements could be made across the board when it comes to any industry hiring trans folks, but I'm wondering if this struck a specific nerve with anyone.
I'd have preferred a trans actor, but it's not a deal breaker for me. That said, while I do think that a cis actor can occasionally do well in a trans role (I'm okay with Tambor in Transparent, for example), I don't see any reason why Bioware couldn't have cast a trans man in this case. Krem is a step forward, but he's not as large a step forward as he could have been.
And as Crystal says, the opinions that really matter in this are those of trans men.
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A biologically male dwarf in a dress on camera for a few seconds with no lines is not a trans woman. It's a dwarf in a dress.
Rejecting authorial intent in favor of subtext invented by the fans is also a horrible practice. Its like saying Tropic Thunder endorsed black face.
The text is the text, and the authorial intent is the authorial intent, and there are definitely times where the text relates only tangentially to the intent of the author (also I would definitely say I'm well-qualified to discern authorial intent from what the text actually says, and make a judgment as to what's actually more important - which is almost always the text).
"LOL U DID A DUDE IN A DRESS" is used to justify transphobic assault and homicide in 49 states so I think it's fair to criticize "man in a dress" joke characters on that basis.
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A biologically male dwarf in a dress on camera for a few seconds with no lines is not a trans woman. It's a dwarf in a dress.
Rejecting authorial intent in favor of subtext invented by the fans is also a horrible practice. Its like saying Tropic Thunder endorsed black face.
There's also a codex entry e explaining the context for the comment by Hawks which amounts to nobels have far less freedom with regards to sexuality and gender expression because of dynastic pressure. Is scandalous not because they're GLBT, but because they're not making babies. Dorian's dialog on his personal quest touches on that too.
It's worth noting that the writer for the character, Mary Kirby, did apologize.
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It's worth noting that the writer for the character, Mary Kirby, did apologize.A biologically male dwarf in a dress on camera for a few seconds with no lines is not a trans woman. It's a dwarf in a dress.
Rejecting authorial intent in favor of subtext invented by the fans is also a horrible practice. Its like saying Tropic Thunder endorsed black face.
There's also a codex entry e explaining the context for the comment by Hawks which amounts to nobels have far less freedom with regards to sexuality and gender expression because of dynastic pressure. Is scandalous not because they're GLBT, but because they're not making babies. Dorian's dialog on his personal quest touches on that too.
It is worth it to note this. It doesn't change the text, but it does provide some context to it.
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It is worth it to note this. It doesn't change the text, but it does provide some context to it.It's worth noting that the writer for the character, Mary Kirby, did apologize.A biologically male dwarf in a dress on camera for a few seconds with no lines is not a trans woman. It's a dwarf in a dress.
Rejecting authorial intent in favor of subtext invented by the fans is also a horrible practice. Its like saying Tropic Thunder endorsed black face.
There's also a codex entry e explaining the context for the comment by Hawks which amounts to nobels have far less freedom with regards to sexuality and gender expression because of dynastic pressure. Is scandalous not because they're GLBT, but because they're not making babies. Dorian's dialog on his personal quest touches on that too.
Right. That's how I meant it, sorry if that wasn't clear. In contrast to Krensky's Tropic Thunder example, Kirby and Gaider both acknowledged that the criticism of the character was valid.
To the OP and others offended by this scene:
I am deeply sorry. It wasn't my intent to make Serendipity the punchline of that conversation or to depict her in a negative light. But my intent as the writer doesn't matter. What I was trying to do failed, and ultimately, what came across to you was hurtful, and that does matter. And for that, I cannot apologize enough. Again, I'm very sorry.
[Again, source]
So, arguments about authorial intent have been, in this case, essentially rejected by the authors themselves.
Edit to add: Here's David Gaider in the same thread.
But (and that's a big but) you must also respect the fact that minorities are sensitive to that kind of portrayal because that's all they see. You don't get to come in and say "I don't see what all the fuss is about"... because of course you wouldn't. That goes without saying. So, yes, you (and I) just have to take them at their word when they say it's insensitive.
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Way to pull half a paragraph out of a much longer post explaining it.
If you're referring to me, and to Gaider's post, the link to the complete original post is there. I didn't want to take up too much space by posting the whole thing, as I thought doing so was considered bad form. So I pulled a relevant bit out, and provided a link to the rest of it.
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Way to pull half a paragraph out of a much longer post explaining it.If you're referring to me, and to Gaider's post, the link to the complete original post is there. I didn't want to take up too much space by posting the whole thing, as I thought doing so was considered bad form. So I pulled a relevant bit out, and provided a link to the rest of it.
And I'm just getting tired of people deciding that I don't know how to do what I have a college degree in doing, apparently because my conclusions differ from what they want me to have concluded.
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Krensky, this is what Kittyburger said about the character:
So while it might be technically true that trans women don't appear in games 1 and 2, stereotypes associated with trans women do and they are hurtful.
and
"LOL U DID A DUDE IN A DRESS" is used to justify transphobic assault and homicide in 49 states so I think it's fair to criticize "man in a dress" joke characters on that basis.
It seems pretty clear that Serendipity was intended to be a drag queen rather than a trans woman, and I don't think anyone is disputing that. (This wouldn't mean she isn't transgender, of course, in the umbrella sense of the term.) But many of the criticisms of the character have less to do with that and more to do with Serendipity being used for an apparent "dude in a dress" joke ("Awkward!") which, as Kittyburger says, is the sort of thing that's sometimes used to justify violence against trans people.
So it's not a matter of ignoring authorial intent so much as it's a matter of saying to Bioware, whatever the intent, here's the effect of that scene, here's what it plays into, could you please not do that. And Bioware said, yes, we're sorry we didn't see that, we'll try to do better in the future.
That, at least, is my understanding.
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Krensky, this is what Kittyburger said about the character:
So while it might be technically true that trans women don't appear in games 1 and 2, stereotypes associated with trans women do and they are hurtful.and
"LOL U DID A DUDE IN A DRESS" is used to justify transphobic assault and homicide in 49 states so I think it's fair to criticize "man in a dress" joke characters on that basis.It seems pretty clear that Serendipity was intended to be a drag queen rather than a trans woman, and I don't think anyone is disputing that. (This wouldn't mean she isn't transgender, of course, in the umbrella sense of the term.) But many of the criticisms of the character have less to do with that and more to do with Serendipity being used for an apparent "dude in a dress" joke ("Awkward!") which, as Kittyburger says, is the sort of thing that's sometimes used to justify violence against trans people.
So it's not a matter of ignoring authorial intent so much as it's a matter of saying to Bioware, whatever the intent, here's the effect of that scene, here's what it plays into, could you please not do that. And Bioware said, yes, we're sorry we didn't see that, we'll try to do better in the future.
That, at least, is my understanding.
More or less, yes. While authorial intent matters, it's of distinctly secondary importance to how the text interacts with other texts and with society on the conversation level.
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Also, careful about the drag queen are under the trans umbrella.
That's not what I said. I said her being a drag queen doesn't mean she isn't transgender. That's not the same as saying it means she is transgender. I always respect the choices individuals make in terms of how they choose to identify. And there are different conceptions of what the trans umbrella means, and who fits under it, particularly with regards to drag, and particularly of late, certainly. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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No one here is saying she isn't a drag queen.
Edit to add: And I don't think anyone is saying that authorial intent is inherently meaningless in the post-structuralist death of the author sense.
Anyways, this is getting circular and pointless. So, good night, all.
The U.S. Department of Education has issued guidelines clarifying that transgender students are protected under Title IX in elementary, middle and high schools with regards to single-sex classes.
All students, including transgender students and students who do not conform to sex stereotypes, are protected from sex-based discrimination under Title IX. Under Title IX, a recipient generally must treat transgender students consistent with their gender identity in all aspects of the planning, implementation, enrollment, operation, and evaluation of single-sex classes.
(Also, see if you can guess whether the first comment under the article is positive or negative.)
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To get back on the original point: Nearly every trans man I've talked to in the last day or so has gushed about how awesome Krem is and how much they love him, and that they think he sounds fine for a pre/non-hormone-taking trans man character. So I'm revising my perspective a bit.
To get back on the original point: Nearly every trans man I've talked to in the last day or so has gushed about how awesome Krem is and how much they love him, and that they think he sounds fine for a pre/non-hormone-taking trans man character. So I'm revising my perspective a bit.
That's what I was seeing in the comments section when I first read about it at The Mary Sue.
Voice acting is a funny thing and unlike visual acting, you can get away with not matching the race, ethnicity, gender, and age of the character. As long as the voice actor does a great job at matching the character.
Look at Avatar The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra. The first series, despite being primarly drawn from Asian sources, had very few Asian voice actors. Mako, James Hong, and Sab Shimono were the prominent ones, taking on Iroh and other various voices (some of the original Airbender chiefs, the old earthbender that chased after Toph in Season 2). The lead cast of five (Aang, Katara, Sokka, Toph, Zuko) are voiced by four white kids and one Philipino guy (who was Rufio in Hook, fun fact :) ), despite being characters inspired by Chinese, Tibetan, Inuit, and Japanese cultures. And in some cases, the age doesn't even match (Zuko is voiced by a guy in his 30's). Also Zelda Williams plays a large part in the latter seasons of Korra, and Mark Hamil is the great Fire Lord Ozai. Yet, all of the voice actors do a great job at portraying their characters, despite not matching race.
Of course, I can understand wanting to allow more transpeople access into acting in general. It's a good goal to go for and it would be nice to have that representation in the industry. It's a hard balancing act with voice acting, getting someone that fits the character AND matches the character's race/gender/ethnicity/age/etc.