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Juju Oracle undead v. Smite Evil


Rules Questions


How would that work. Juju oracle with the revalation Spirit Vessels (Su) makes undead that are neutral or even good aligned. Good and neutral aligned would negate smite evil. However, Smite evil specifically calls out that it does double damage to undead.

So, would smite evil do double damage to said undead or would it not work at all?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

BTW, Spirit Vessels was a mistake that slipped through the cracks.

But if it were intended, then it would make sense that they don't do double damage, as presumably it's the negative energy that's causing that.


How is spirit vessels a mistake?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Explained here.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Basically, if they had caught it, it would've never had gone to print.

Grand Lodge

I'm sure it's been discussed other places before but I don't see all undead as evil. I ran a campaign once myself in which willing worshippers of a god of death (who just so happened to run the city) would "donate" their bodies after death to become mindless undead. These undead, mostly skeletons, would then do manual labour tasks such as simple farming, digging, ect. How is it evil to abide by some ones wishes when they pass away and then use the results to help others who are still alive? Negative energy itself isn't inherently evil, no more so than fire or water, it's just easier to manipulate it for evil purposes.


Cheapy wrote:
Explained here.

Thanks, I learnt sumpin' today.

:(

Not happy about that though...

Grand Lodge

Like James Jacob said though you can always change it for your game, doesn't seem game breaking at all to me :)

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Stikye wrote:

How would that work. Juju oracle with the revalation Spirit Vessels (Su) makes undead that are neutral or even good aligned. Good and neutral aligned would negate smite evil. However, Smite evil specifically calls out that it does double damage to undead.

So, would smite evil do double damage to said undead or would it not work at all?

Personally, I would rule that smite evil would in that case deal regular smite damage (so 1 point per paladin level). This would be a house rule, though. As it's written? 2 points per paladin level.

"Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess."


Doesn't smite evil say it does double damage to EVIL undead?

If they aren't evil, it doesn't get doubled.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Spirit Vessels is only a mistake if you absolutely don't want non-evil undead in your games.

For everyone else, it's a godsend.


cartmanbeck wrote:
Stikye wrote:

How would that work. Juju oracle with the revalation Spirit Vessels (Su) makes undead that are neutral or even good aligned. Good and neutral aligned would negate smite evil. However, Smite evil specifically calls out that it does double damage to undead.

So, would smite evil do double damage to said undead or would it not work at all?

Personally, I would rule that smite evil would in that case deal regular smite damage (so 1 point per paladin level). This would be a house rule, though. As it's written? 2 points per paladin level.

"Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess."

The above leaves out an important phrase later in the description of the power:

The Core Rulebook wrote:


If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

Andoran

Mikaze wrote:

Spirit Vessels is only a mistake if you absolutely don't want non-evil undead in your games.

For everyone else, it's a godsend.

This.

Also, Smite Evil isn't Positive energy (as is demonstrated by it hurting living creatures), personally I'd have it just not work at all on non-Evil undead (just as it doesn't on non-evil Outsiders or Dragons).

Now, Lay on Hands would still work if they want to use it, but that's a different matter entirely.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Extra deliciousness: A celestial sorcerer's Heavenly Fire ability will heal good undead just as much as good living creatures.

It's part of how we're keeping the dhampir paladin up in our Carrion Crown campaign.


Stikye wrote:

How would that work. Juju oracle with the revalation Spirit Vessels (Su) makes undead that are neutral or even good aligned. Good and neutral aligned would negate smite evil. However, Smite evil specifically calls out that it does double damage to undead.

So, would smite evil do double damage to said undead or would it not work at all?

If the target is evil, then your smite will deal damage. If the smite would deal damage, then it deals double damage to undead targets. Non-evil undead are still non-evil, and thus cannot be harmed by smite evil; because it's not smite undead, nor dragon, nor outsider.


Mikaze wrote:

Extra deliciousness: A celestial sorcerer's Heavenly Fire ability will heal good undead just as much as good living creatures.

It's part of how we're keeping the dhampir paladin up in our Carrion Crown campaign.

Also, an undead Paladin's lay on hands can still be used to heal themselves.

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