Non-damaging sorcerer


Advice

Silver Crusade

So I decided to make a controller type gnome sorcerer for Pathfinder Society, and I got the crazy idea of making the character completely incapable of doing any HP damage whatsoever. Well, anyone can do nonlethal damage with their fist, but this guy does it at a -2 strength penalty, so his max is 1 HP nonlethal, if he can even hit.

I decided to go with the Deep Earth bloodline, both to be unusual, and because it has some cool powers and spells for this type of thing. First level Tremor power trips people, Expeditious Excavation and Shifting Sands are good control-type bonus spells, and the +1 on all spell DCs when casting underground is a nice bloodline arcana.

There are some obvious choices for spells, like Color Spray, Glitterdust, etc. And I know at higher levels, I'll end up with some spells that deal damage, but I'll definitely be focusing on getting them for controller type reasons, not the damage (ie Black Tentacles).

At first level, he'll have Tremor 7 times per day, Color Spray, and I picked up Daze as a cantrip. I figure that should be enough to do in combat at first level while avoiding the typical crossbow routine. What would be a good second spell to know? I was actually thinking maybe Mage Armor, just so I don't die, but Silent Image is looking tempting, too, especially with the gnome bonus on the DC. After all, an illusionary wall preventing the enemies from attacking me should be safer than a good AC. Even though Grease is a great spell, I figure it'll be somewhat redundant with the Deep Earth tripping stuff.

So does anyone have recommendations for spells, feats, traits, etc that would go with this oddball concept?


Merciful Spell This seems like a must have for your Sorcerer.

Sleep is a good spell at 1st level; I've seen Sleep at first level make a lot of encounters a cake walk.


Probably will not be doing melee but... Blade of Mercy trait lets you do nonlethal with any slashing weapon (melee or ranged). Enforcer feat lets you demoralize anytime you hit in melee for nonlethal.

Bouncing and/or Persistent Spell metamagic feats will likely benefit the kinds of spells he will be casting most. I would reconsider bloodline and look at Fey, it might fit your concept better, and as you noted, you could just use grease to trip people. And I feel the need to give the obligatory notice: Humans can use favored class to gain extra spells known; any sorcerer should seriously consider being human.


Obscuring mist is a good 1st level controller spell - prevents targeting of ranged spells, gives concealment, allows stealthy characters to use stealth, prevents sneak attacks, is not overcome by darkvision.

Animate Rope is another good one - entangles or immobilises foes, and is useful for quick escapes or reaching higher elevations before levitate/spider climb are available.

Blind Fight could be a great feat for you, especially if you use fog spells and darkness in your controller build. Don't lose dex bonus when you are blind, and no +2 attack bonus against you from invisible foes.

Nible Moves/Acrobatic Steps can also allow you to move through your own spells which cause difficult terrain. (web, black tentacles, ice storm, stone shape, shifting sand, ash storm)

Widen spell to give greater area of effect to small area spells (grease, color spray, create pit, sleep, etc.)

Heighten Spell is great for keeping those lower-level controller spells relevant as you level up.

Dazing Spell - Number one pick - turns any spell into a control spell.

Persistent spell - Single-save control spells become twice as nasty.

Rime Spell - Turn Sleet Storm, Ice Storm and Wall of Ice into much nastier spells.


Note that Dazing Spell only works on spells that do damage.

Acrobatic Steps and Blind Fight are on your bonus feat list.

Stinking Cloud + Hold Person is amusing, hard to pull off but amusing.

Heighten spell and Quicken spell at high levels.

At low levels thunder stone and tanglefoot bags,

Selective Spell will help avoid getting your allies caught in your spell effects.

Blindness/Deafness is one of my personal favorites.

-Flash

Liberty's Edge

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Just pick spells from the conjuration, enchantment, and transmutation schools, and take spell focus in those schools.

Oh, and take Haste at level 6. Here are some of my favorite spells by level.

1) Color Spray, Grease, Mage Armor
2) Glitterdust, Create Pit, Web, False Life
3) Aqueous Orb, Stinking Cloud, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Dispel Magic
4) Confusion, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Greater Invisibility, Stone Shape
5) Wall of Force, Overland Flight, Wall of Stone, Hungry Pit
6) Dominate Person, Flesh to Stone

At low levels, I like conjuration. At high levels, I like the same conjuration spells but with Persistent Spell applied. Basically, I think that for a control-oriented caster, Greater Spell Focus (conjuration) is a fantastic feat because of how versatile the school is.

A good example is Glitterdust. Does a TON of stuff, and with Persistent Spell, occupies a 4th level slot which, in my opinion, is a weaker spell level than 3 just because of how many great 3rd level spells there are. Not many creatures will pass 2 will saves at a really high DC. (I'm playing a level 10 no-damage wizard in carrion crown, and I've only seen it happen once. It even works on druids.)

So I might recommend...

1) Improved Initiative
3) Spell Focus (Conjuration)
5) Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)
7) Persistent Spell
7) Skill Focus (perception)
9) Spell Focus (enchantment) or Spell Penetration
11) Spell Focus (transmutation) or (enchantment) or GSF (enchant)

You're a gnome. You'll have gobs of hp, so toughness isn't something I'd recommend. Confusion is a spell that tends to win fights on its own, thus the focus on enchantment. Plus, Charm Person auto-passes any diplomacy check, basically.

Speaking of, I might recommend taking the trait "Ease of Faith" for diplomacy as a class skill.

Oh, and if you take Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Persistent Confusion will WRECK mods. Holy cow. 2 high-DC will saves for every enemy to not lose?

Liberty's Edge

Mabven the OP healer wrote:
Heighten Spell is great for keeping those lower-level controller spells relevant as you level up.

Persistent Spell does the same thing and is mechanically more powerful, especially if you have high DCs to begin with through feats like Spell Focus. Heighten spell is an interesting option, but I'd only consider it if it were a prerequisite for something else.

Silver Crusade

Thanks for the responses so far.

Just to clear up some confusion, I'm not looking for ways to do non-lethal damage. The character isn't a pacifist who refuses to do damage. He just doesn't focus on doing damage, lethal or non-lethal. But if one of his controller spells like Black Tentacles or Create Pit happens to cause some lethal damage as a side effect, he really doesn't care.

You know, I had seen the Persistent Spell feat, and it seemed ok, but I didn't think it was that great until seeing everyone singing its praises here. I guess I just hadn't thought about it in terms of combining with the low level "save or suck" spells like Glitterdust, Charm Person, Web, and Create Pit. That does look very good.

I'm surprised everyone's ignoring illusions, other than Color Spray. With the gnome DC bonus for them, I was thinking it could be worth picking up a couple of extra illusion spells. That's actually why Color Spray was my first choice for a level 1 spell.

Axebeard, are you sure it's worth skipping Toughness? That was actually my first choice for level 1 feat. I've got 14 con, but with as few HP and skill ranks as sorcerers get, I was figuring Toughness would help me survive, while freeing up the favored class bonus for skill training.

As for the bloodline, I looked at Fey, and I just wasn't overly impressed. Actually, Arcane looked like the best choice, but it's so stereotypical that I just didn't want to go there. Deep Earth is an unusual one that most people have never seen, and it's got some good stuff in it. Tripping people as a level 1 power, and getting +1 DC on any spell I cast underground are both great bloodline powers, and spells like Expeditious Excavation and Shifting Sands appeal to me for controlling purposes. And then there's little stuff like tremorsense later, which is also kinda cool.

Actually, another oddball bloodline I considered was Aquatic. But I figure that one's better for a water themed campaign than Pathfinder Society. If my group ever plays the pirate themed Adventure Path, I'll probably do an Aquatic Sorcerer for that. The swim speed and water breathing are what you want when your campaign is based around a ship.


If you are not married to the deep earth bloodline (and I agree with you, it is a great bloodline for the type of sorcerer you are building) another choice would be to go Elemental(water) bloodline, which allows you to change any energy damage to cold, and take the Rime Spell metamagic feat. Turns any energy damage spell into a controller spell which entangles.

Also, I didn't mention any Illusion spells because I thought you had just asked for 1st level spells for now, and then ideas for feats, traits etc for the full build. I definitely agree, there are a ton of great illusion spells for your build.

Silver Crusade

Hmm... The Water Elemental bloodline + Rime Spell metamagic thing is a cool idea (pun intended). It would also work with the Marid bloodline, which is another one I'd looked at. But it also depends on blasting spells, which isn't the direction I want to go with this character. So I think I'll stick to Deep Earth on this one.

With everything I'm learning about various bloodlines and spells, I'm actually tempted to make multiple sorcerer characters. I may never use them all, but I'd be curious to try out some builds just to see how it comes out.


It actually doesn't rely on blasting spells. It simply turns your run of the mill blasting spells, into control spells as well. Say you take fireball, it's now Frostball + Entagleball. It'd be similar to Black Tentacles, except it does more damage and you don't make grapple checks. As long as someone takes damage, they get entangled. Even saving for half doesn't stop them from being entangled unless they have Evasion.

Some of the things controller casters have problems encountering is flying creatures. Granted, they can do it, but Create Pit, Web, etc. have no effect on them. But you shoot a Rime Spell Frostball up there, if they take damage, they're entangled and fall, I believe.

Liberty's Edge

Oh, well, toughness is a fine feat. I might make that decision based on how the combats play out, though, so maybe put it off until level 3. If the frontliners are good at keeping enemies off of you, then you probably don't need it.

I think that while Toughness is a good feat, part of its reputation as necessary for a caster came from the fact that a lot of the iconic builds and guides came from back in olden times, when there were only like two good wizard feats. Remember Treantmonk's guide? It lists MOUNTED COMBAT as "green" for wizards. Mounted Combat. Green. That's your benchmark for Toughness being blue. It's more useful than mounted combat for a wizard.

If you find yourself taking a beating, go for it. If you look at the party and you think you'll take a beating at level 1, go for it. For example, I play my wizard in a party with two fighters and a cleric. I can't remember the last time I my character took significant damage, especially considering he casts false life every day. Given that you have chosen to eschew damage, you will be wielding magic that will win the fight with one or two spells. As such, I think it's more important to go first and get those spells off so that the rest of the party can go mopping up after you've done the heavy lifting on round one.

This question is also somewhat dependent upon what kinds of gear you'll have, too. Do you anticipate a constitution belt or a dex belt? Con/Dex belt? If you see yourself buying a con belt, or a belt with a constitution component, I'd go for improved initiative over toughness. Illusion has a lot of defensive buffs, like Improved Invisibility and Displacement, so you'll probably be taking less hits than anyone else by virtue of the school of magic you've chosen.

Gnomes having a higher illusion save DC is nice, but most illusions only allow saving throws if your subjects interact with them, and you see a TON of table variation on how DMs handle the illusion school. That's why I tend to stay away from it and didn't really think to recommend any illusions. I just have no idea how they'll work at your table. You see color spray mentioned a lot, though, because it has a very clearly-defined, powerful effect.


The downside to Illusion spells is a lot of classic enemies, undead for example, are immune to them by virtue of being undead. Others have abilities that totally bypass or ignore them, like tremor sense or blind sense.

Table variation, as Axebreed mention, is also a downside. In my own play group, one GM has been playing since D&D came out. He grew up playing with illusion wizards that would cast lightning bolt, then cast an illusion of a lightning bolt, and took damage from both lightning bolts because he didn't disbelieve. He very much so dislikes illusions and argues to nerf them at every chance. In his game, simply looking at an illusion grants you a will save, but when I GM, I make a character interact with them to get a will save.

Liberty's Edge

Tels wrote:
The downside to Illusion spells is a lot of classic enemies, undead for example, are immune to them by virtue of being undead.

That's not true, actually. They're immune to patterns and phantasms, but not to spells like Illusory Wall (figments) and Invisibility (Glamers). For example, you can fool skeletons with a major image of a dragon.


Tels wrote:
The downside to Illusion spells is a lot of classic enemies, undead for example, are immune to them by virtue of being undead.

Wrong

link

Edit: got ninja?


I tossed out undead as that's a monster immune to most mind effecting effects, and common at lower levels. Others, like many outsiders, have Trueseeing, or other senses the defeat illusory walls, illusory monsters, etc.

I don't think any one monster is immune to illusions, but they may be immune to many of the illusion subtypes.

Silver Crusade

Well, this is for Pathfinder Society, so the character's going to be played with a variety of DMs and other characters.

That's part of why I figure Toughness is good. I have no idea how good my front liners will be on any given day. And if I do take it, I just assume it'll be at first level, since that's when I'll need the HP the most. With 14 con, and making a con belt a priority item for later, maybe I'll be ok without it. But I did kinda want to free up the favored class bonus to make up for the pathetic skill points sorcerers get.

But maybe I'll risk skipping Toughness and get Improved Initiative first, after all. I've got 12 dex and Excitable (the gnome version of Reactionary), so with Improved Init, I'll be up to +7. At 1st level, I don't see how this character can dominate any combats by going first, though. That type of thing usually comes later, though Color Spray is a good start. I just hate the short range on all the 1st level stuff, which is another reason I'm worried about HP.

Liberty's Edge

Well, it's hard to go wrong with toughness, so don't feel like you're making a bad choice. If it's for PFS, then you're right: You never know how aggressive the DM is going to be and how good the fighters are going to be at holding monster attention.

What do your other stats look like? I know you're asking to take a beating when you dump a stat, but how about...

Str 7 (-4)
Dex 14 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 7 (-4)
Wis 12 (2)
Cha 18 (16)

For final scores of

Str 5
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 7
Wis 12
Cha 20

You could also drop charisma to 16 pre-racial to get dex (or con, if you're feeling beefy) up to 16, resulting in dex 16, con 16, cha 18, or dex 14, con 18, cha 18. That will start you out with 10 or 11 hp, which is good even for some clerics. Not to mention the +4 fort save.

Silver Crusade

I went with these stats (after racial modifiers):

Str: 7
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 19

I wouldn't even consider dumping int, because skills tend to be important in PFS. Between Use Magic Device, one social skill (probably Bluff for this character), Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, and the bloodline class skills that are usually pretty good, sorcerers actually need some skill ranks. If nothing else, I definitely want to keep UMD maxed and throw a few ranks here and there into the others, along with Perception and maybe one or two other skills.

I actually consider wisdom the second possible dump stat for a sorc, but I don't want to kill my will saves or perception. I could get 20 cha to start if I drop 2 of the other stats by 2 points each, but I want to round out my stats a little better than that. I figure having 20 cha at level 4 should be good enough, and sorcs don't need to spend all their money on weapons and armor, so I'll be able to get a headband to boost my charisma relatively early.

I guess with 14 con, I can survive without Toughness, as long as I stay off the front line and Color Spray anything that comes within 15 feet of me. And taking Improved Initiative at 1st level would be a good way to make sure I can avoid the enemies, by running away before they can attack me.


Since you want good skills, why don't you drop the Cha to 18 and bump Int to 14?

Silver Crusade

Tels wrote:
Since you want good skills, why don't you drop the Cha to 18 and bump Int to 14?

It's all a balancing act.

Cha is the main casting stat for a sorcerer, and a lot of sorc spells have saving throws, so having a 19 that can go up to 20 at level 4 seems worth giving up an extra skill rank to get. With 12 int, I'll have 3 skill ranks per level, frequently 4 when I apply the favored class bonus to it, which should be ok, even if it's not great.

I actually thought about dropping Wis to 10 and Str to 6 in order to boost Dex or Int to 14, but decided to go with the more balanced numbers, instead.


I hate dumping Str, and believe it or not, for a caster, it's even worse with small races. You'd be surprised how quickly you will become encumbered carrying just standard adventuring gear.

Silver Crusade

Mabven the OP healer wrote:
I hate dumping Str, and believe it or not, for a caster, it's even worse with small races. You'd be surprised how quickly you will become encumbered carrying just standard adventuring gear.

Like what? We're talking about a character with no weapons or armor, and being small, his clothes, backpack, blanket, etc are 1/4 the weight of medium size. I already bought gear for him and had no problem staying under the light weight limit for 7 strength. I even bought a grappling hook and 50 foot rope, which are his heaviest gear, and it was no problem.


I believe the gear is only 1/2 weight not 1/4 (but I can't find the reference right now). Also your carry capacity is only 3/4 of a medium sized characters.

your str of 5 can only carry 9.75 lbs before starting to be encumbered. A backpack, bedroll, waterskin, couple days of trail rations, dagger, clothes, beltpouch, potion of healing, and few coins and you are almost already there. Backup xbow and bolts or sling and stones, mapcase, bandoleer for potions or scrolls, wands or staves, etc... and you are well over.

Until you get the mulepack cords, handy haversack, or bag of holding, it is almost impossible to have any gear and not be overloaded. Unless of course you are an extreme minimalist gearwise. Then it is possible but difficult.


In PFS, you won't see much play beyond 10th level (12th max I think), so look for stuff that kicks in early. at low level there are some good debuffing spells like ray of exhaustion that may be good to take since they avoid saving throws. Save or suck spells would probably serve you well also. at level 3, slow is good, and confusion at level 4 is excellent. Energy drain does damage through level loss, but isn't damaging outright. baleful polymorph at level 5 combined with a persistant metamagic rod would let you end encounters.

Silver Crusade

Hmm... I missed that carrying capacity is 3/4 for small characters. Note that my stats above are after racial modifiers, so I've got 7 strength, not 5. I'll have to check the math and maybe ditch the grappling hook, but I still don't see a big issue.

The equipment list in the Core Rulebook has a note that certain things weigh 1/4 as much at small size, so backpacks and blankets are much lower weight than for medium characters.

Not knowing about the 3/4 will be a bigger issue for my halfling cleric character, because of the armor. I may have to give up on keeping him light and just go with medium armor. I was hoping to hold off on medium armor until I could afford a mithral breastplate for him. He's got the Travel domain, so at least his base speed is 30, despite the hobbit sized legs, so going medium weight and/or medium armor will only slow him to 20 speed.


Fromper wrote:
Mabven the OP healer wrote:
I hate dumping Str, and believe it or not, for a caster, it's even worse with small races. You'd be surprised how quickly you will become encumbered carrying just standard adventuring gear.

Like what? We're talking about a character with no weapons or armor, and being small, his clothes, backpack, blanket, etc are 1/4 the weight of medium size. I already bought gear for him and had no problem staying under the light weight limit for 7 strength. I even bought a grappling hook and 50 foot rope, which are his heaviest gear, and it was no problem.

Yes, but as you adventure, you are going to want to pick up some magical equipment, some of which has its own weight. Scrolls, potions and wands have negligible weight, but scroll cases weigh a half-pound, and you'll wan a few of those to keep your scrolls safe. But what about rods? You want a rod of lesser empower? 5 lbs. How about a Staff of Charming? another 2.5 lbs (I assume half for a staff, because it is essentially a quarter-staff). Additionally, some spells require some weighty material components. You want to scry on an ally as he bluffs his way into the enemy camp? You need a 1000gp silver mirror. Also, coins weigh surprisingly a lot. 50 coins = 1 lb. You carrying around 1000gp? That's 20 lbs.


I did this with a Dw sorc, who only used damaging spells vs swarms and other vermin (he also wore a swarmsuit, he had a phobia). So, think about that, sometimes the sorc is the only PC who can hurt a swarm.

My new Hu Sorc also uses most non-damaging spells, including Haste, Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, grease.

Toughness is a great feat. Yes, it’s value gets less as you get higher level, but in order to get to higher level, you have to survive 1-3 levels. So, unless you’re starting @ 20th, I pretty much ignore 20th level builds, as I have had exactly one campaign ever get there.

Combat Casting is also a good feat.

I like your build. I think that too many dump stats is not a good thing.


Mabven the OP healer wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Mabven the OP healer wrote:
I hate dumping Str, and believe it or not, for a caster, it's even worse with small races. You'd be surprised how quickly you will become encumbered carrying just standard adventuring gear.

Like what? We're talking about a character with no weapons or armor, and being small, his clothes, backpack, blanket, etc are 1/4 the weight of medium size. I already bought gear for him and had no problem staying under the light weight limit for 7 strength. I even bought a grappling hook and 50 foot rope, which are his heaviest gear, and it was no problem.

Yes, but as you adventure, you are going to want to pick up some magical equipment, some of which has its own weight. Scrolls, potions and wands have negligible weight, but scroll cases weigh a half-pound, and you'll wan a few of those to keep your scrolls safe. But what about rods? You want a rod of lesser empower? 5 lbs. How about a Staff of Charming? another 2.5 lbs (I assume half for a staff, because it is essentially a quarter-staff). Additionally, some spells require some weighty material components. You want to scry on an ally as he bluffs his way into the enemy camp? You need a 1000gp silver mirror. Also, coins weigh surprisingly a lot. 50 coins = 1 lb. You carrying around 1000gp? That's 20 lbs.

efficient quiver and handy haversack. Problem solved for 380 platinum. (7.6 pounds)

Grand Lodge

Muleback cords help too.

Silver Crusade

I dumped the rope and grappling hook, which brings my equipment down to below 10 lbs, with a carrying capacity of 17+ lbs as a small character with 7 str. And that's just if I want to stay lightly encumbered, to avoid slowing from 20 to 15 speed. So I'm satisfied that I'll have enough money to get a Handy Haversack and/or pack animal before I reach the point of having encumbrance issues. And I now have enough money to pick up one or two scrolls of Expeditious Retreat, just in case I need to move faster than my little gnome legs can naturally carry me.

I went with Color Spray and Mage Armor for my starting level 1 spells. I figure Mage Armor is better as a known spell than wand or scrolls, because of the increased duration as I level up. And gnomes get a bonus for the DC on Color Spray, because it's an illusion, so it's a very solid choice.

I played the character for the first time yesterday, and used both of those spells twice each. The Mage Armor came in handy the first time, when I ended up with a zombie in my face. But it was kinda wasted the 2nd time, because I managed to stay out of the line of fire. The first Color Spray worked nicely, too - knocked out two minor bad guys, freeing up my teammates to focus on their boss. The final bad guy at the end of the adventure made his save against the 2nd Color Spray.

The Tremor power I get from the Deep Earth bloodline was fun to try, but I kept missing my rolls. I think it only worked 2 out of 7 times. Luckily, the last one that worked was against the final bad guy. I knocked him prone just as my teammates surrounded him with melee attacks, while his AC was -4 for being prone. He didn't survive long enough to stand back up.

I had to fall back on using the Daze cantrip a few times, and I still managed to run out of level 1 spells and Tremors for the day. Daze actually came in quite handy once, when I hit a bad guy with it who was blocking our people from getting into the fight. This allowed everyone in our group to walk by him without worrying about provoking opportunity attacks. But the DC on Daze is low enough that I didn't succeed with it very often. Given that it only works on creatures with 4 HD or less, it'll probably be the first spell I trade out at level 4. By then, I'll be casting 3 times as many level 1+ spells per day than I am now, so I'll have better things to do in battle.

All in all, I like the character. At low levels, he's not going to be the most useful guy on the team, but I think starting around level 4, when he gets 2nd level spells, increases his cha from 19 to 20, and can cast a lot more spells per day, he'll become much more effective.

Now that he has over 1000 gp from two adventures (one played, the other I was the GM and gave credit to this PC), I just have to decide what to buy for him. Because of the limitations on spending based on fame/prestige earned in PFS, I can't buy stuff like a Cloak of Resistance or armor items yet, even if I do have enough money. I'm limited to cheap stuff, and stuff on the PFS "always available" list, which includes level 1 scrolls and potions. So I'm figuring I'll pick up a couple more Cure Light Wounds potions, and a bunch of scrolls of situational level 1 spells that I'd rarely use, like Air Bubble, Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist, Comprehend Languages, etc. And maybe a couple of tanglefoot bags - those would go well with this character concept. Then I'll probably start saving up my money for more expensive stuff for later.


I would suggest spending 2 PA to buy either a wand of cure light wounds or a wand of infernal healing for some out of combat healing.

Silver Crusade

Some Random Dood wrote:
I would suggest spending 2 PA to buy either a wand of cure light wounds or a wand of infernal healing for some out of combat healing.

Good thought, but I'm one step ahead of you.

Silver Crusade

I just got this character up to 3rd level, so it's time to pick a new 1st level spell.

Offensively, he's got Daze, Color Spray, and the Tremor bloodline power, which are all good against humanoids. But as was pointed out the hard way today, Daze and Color Spray don't work on mindless enemies, and tripping things with more than 2 legs is tough. So I brought absolutely no offense to the table against giant spiders. But in the same adventure, I knocked 6 different enemies unconscious with Color Spray and tripped a couple with Tremor, so my character is pulling his weight overall.

Now that I've hit 3rd level, I get Expeditious Excavation as a bloodline spell, which is pretty cool, but it only works to try and trip medium or smaller creatures.

So I'm trying to find another offensive spell to take. I was thinking maybe Grease, since it creates difficult terrain even if things don't fall down. And it's Conjuration, and I was thinking of doing Spell Focus in that. That would work with some of the higher level spells I'll pick up later, like Glitterdust and Web, which are my most likely choices for my first 2nd level spell when I hit next level. But it's a little redundant to be trying to trip things with yet another spell.

The other spell I'm considering is Silent Image. Or I may have to break down and take a damaging spell. Or just walk around with some sort of weapon for those situations.

I also have over 2k gp to spend with this character. There are a ton of situational spells that would make nice scrolls and wands. I cast Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon, and Comprehend Languages from scrolls today. I was thinking Shield might be a good wand, on top of the Mage Armor that I already have as a known spell. Endure Elements is also an obvious wand choice - it's one of those spells that you'll probably cast 50 times in your career. But you don't always know in advance which missions will need it, and you're likely to cast it on the party every day of the same adventure when it does come up.


Don't forget touch of fatigue as one of the 0 level spells. Tremor + Trip; next round Touch of Fatigue. Good times.

I second another poster; sleep and color spray are the 2 most offensive non-damage spells at 1st level.

0 level: Drench, Daze, Flare, Touch of Fatigue

1st level: Grease, Stumble Gap, Bungle, Hypnotism, Lock Gaze,Sleep, Unprepared Combatant, Flare Burst, Hydraulic Push, Color Spray, Dazzling Blade, Vanish, Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Sickening, Animate Rope, Break, Touch of Gracelessness

Depending on how you want to build the gnome:

Single Op Melee

Break, Bungle, Cause Fear, Hudraulic Push, Stumble Gap, Touch of Gracelessness, Unprepared Combatant

Single Op Ranged

Break, Bungle, Cause Fear, Hudraulic Push, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Sickening, Stumble Gap, Unprepared Combatant

Multi Op

Color Spray, Dazzling Blade, Flare Burst, Grease, Hypnotism, Sleep, Stumble Gap

Regardless you should have at least one of the following:

Mage Armor, Sheild, Vanish, Expeditious Retreat, Obscuring Mist, Animate Rope.

If you're going to go ranged (which would probably be best,) pay close attention to layout details. Find cover, concealment or both when available. When nothing's there have a potion/scroll of Obscuring Mist handy.

Consider Merciful Spell; you've acknowledged that eventually you'll HAVE to do damage w/your spells. Pick spells like Snapdragon Fireworks that have damage + effect, then non-lethal the damage; it's KINDA like putting 'em to sleep...

One last question; does getting someone/thing else to do the damage FOR you count, or is that still you causing damage and therefore taboo?

Silver Crusade

Mark, thanks for the suggestions. I'm trying to avoid touch spells - Color Spray is already closer to the bad guys than I really want to be. Also, see my earlier post about how I'm not intentionally avoiding damage (lethal or nonlethal). It's just that doing direct damage himself is too mundane for this guy - he'd rather do something fancy to show that he doesn't need to draw blood to be useful in a fight.

But I just had a "Well, DUH!!!" moment about what 1st level spell would be perfect for me to take now that I'm level 3 - Summon Monster 1!!! I had ruled it out at 1st level, because of the single round duration. But now that I'm 3rd level, it'll last for 3 rounds, which is long enough to be useful. Because of the duration, this is definitely a spell to know myself instead of casting from a scroll or wand.

I know a 1st level summoned monster won't do much damage even against level 3 enemies, and won't hit jack at higher levels. But it will act as a meat shield to take a single hit that the rest of the team would have taken otherwise, occupy space on the battlefield to limit where the bad guys can move, and probably most importantly, act as a flanker for my allies, especially any ninjas or rogues in the group. As a 1st level spell, I could see this continuing to be useful the whole life of my character.

Shadow Lodge

I started crafting a sorcerer like yours a little while ago, and have now drawn a bunch of inspiration from this thread. He's not perfect, but he should be fun to play. Perhaps he can provide some inspiration for you.

Incapacitator


As long as you're summoning, consider the simple joys of enchantments as well. I had a little halfling NPC that was vicious and evil as a recurring villain. He wasn't as dedicated to non-damage as you but along the same lines; he didn't want to get his hands dirty, fancied himself a Kingpin type villain.

Anyway, when the party first meets him its in their favorite bar. He buys them drinks, chats them up, then one of my players actually says he's going to the bar for the next round - Mythrix goes with him. In the crowd he casts charm person. The party's still only 2nd level, said rogue fails will save, instant ally.

From that point on secret messages started flowing. They had 2 fights with Mythrix after that. One at 3rd level where our doughty halfling used his charmed rogue to lead the party into a death trap and then when they figured it out and got to the guy he used hypnotism and suggestions to get them to drink poison before escaping.

The second fight was at 6th level. I brought the halfling back as a full-fledged mastermind now, armed with charm monster and dominate spells. Oh the joy when they got to the final fight, the MONK of all people failed her will save, and just simply turned on her own party. Incidentally 6th level grapple/flurry from behind on an unsuspecting sorcerer...insane.

Anyway, I thought that might be another way to go. Build yourself a goon squad early and replenish often. Other ways to pull this off at higher levels: animating the dead and constructs.


I would take grease. It's very multipurpose, no SR, and never stops being useful.


I'm actually stealing this idea for an annoying gnome wizard. He's going to have a lot of illusions, enchantments and conjurations, plus a few spare spells here and there, as well as a vicious little goat familiar. The idea is that he uses the goat, plus spells and other tricks, just to mark them for other villains, weaken them, and generally be annoying.

Imagine: invisible goat attacks from surprise; not to do damage but to attack with the CMB Dirty Trick, sickening one of the PC's after slamming into his you-know-where. Then the gnome himself materializes, casting color spray. While confusion ensues he follows with grease and then high-tails it.

Party will encounter Gnomey at level 3, so he'll still be a challenge for them, but I plan to keep him around til level 7 at which point they'll have the chance for some much needed vengeance.

Silver Crusade

So at level 3, my 1st level spells are Color Spray, Mage Armor, Summon Flanker (Monster) 1, and Expeditious Excavation as my bloodline spell. My only offensive cantrip is Daze, and I have the bloodline Tremor power that I use to trip people.

When I hit level 4, I'm considering Glitterdust and Web as my top choices for my first 2nd level spell. I considered Create Pit, but it seems redundant, even though it's a better version of the similar stuff I already have. Grease seems redundant, too, since I'm already trying to trip people left and right.

I picked up Spell Focus (Conjuration) at level 3, which is currently going to waste, but it'll work with my 2nd level spells and other stuff I'm looking at for higher levels. I'll also boost my charisma from 19 to 20 at level 4, so I'll have some nice save DCs at that point, and it'll improve my Tremor power.

I was thinking of either Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) or Augment Summoning as my feat at level 5. It might depend on whether I pick up Summon Monster 2 or wait to pick up a higher level SM spell.

I can also trade out a known spell at level 4. I'll probably dump Color Spray or Daze, both of which are only effective against low HD enemies.


I'm considering touch of fatigue on my gnome for epic level gaming: give him craft wand and quicken spell, then have him craft wands of quickened daze and quickened touch of fatigue. Sure it's only DC 15 saves, but having a goat deliver fatigue every round while you attempt to daze and web every one would just be ridiculous.

Silver Crusade

Daze only works on things with 4 or less HD. That's the main reason I'm probably going to switch it out at 4th level. But I think you can only switch out one spell at a time, and getting a 1st level spell with longer range and more application against higher HD enemies than Color Spray may be more useful than a different cantrip.

Now, web could be fun. Make it persistent and watch everyone have trouble with the save.

Silver Crusade

So I just hit level 4 with this character. I've been playing other characters lately (I mostly play Pathfinder Society), so it took a while to get from 3 to 4.

Obviously, I'm boosting my charisma from 19 to 20 at this level. Also, I have enough money for a charisma headband, so I'll be up to 22. I just barely have enough money, and I'm considering other things, but I think it's worth getting the headband right away and waiting on the other stuff. I already have a Handy Haversack and a wand of Infernal Healing, but that's all I've spent any real money on so far.

I'm leaning towards Glitterdust as my first level 2 spell. I'm also considering Web and Create Pit.

I'm also figuring I'll trade out Color Spray now, probably for Grease or Silent Image, but I haven't decided which I'd prefer. I'm sure I'll get them both eventually, but I can't decide which to take first. I guess I'm leaning towards Silent Image, though I do have Spell Focus (Conjuration) that works with Grease. But being a gnome, I get the same +1 DC on Silent Image.

Silver Crusade

So I just played this PC at level 6 for the first time last night, and he's starting to get really good. He's always fun to play for personality reasons, but his spells have been very useful in battle ever since I picked up Glitterdust and Grease at level 4 (with Spell Focus: Conjuration). I also just got Haste as my first known 3rd level spell, which is always nice to have.

I've also got Summon Monster 2 with Augment Summoning, though how much I use that depends heavily on party makeup (which changes every time due to playing in PFS). For instance, we had a 7 player table last night, so I didn't do any summoning. In another game, we had a monster scare away half the party with fear affects, so I kept summoning meat shields until they came back.

For defense, I took Mage Armor and Shield as known spells, since I use them so often and the increased durations are nice to have. With all my eq and my spells up, I actually have 23 AC, which isn't bad for a level 6 sorcerer. Just walking around with Mage Armor and basic eq, I'm at 18 before casting Shield and Haste. I have decent HP for a sorc with just 14 con, so I didn't bother with Toughness, but I've put my favored class bonus in HP about half the time.

With a +2 headband, I'm up to 22 charisma, plus the Circlet of Persuasion to help with bluffs, concentration checks, and UMD (which is currently +18, so 1 away from not needing a roll to use any wand).

I'm going to get a bunch of new stuff next level, so I figured I'd start thinking about it in advance. At level 7, I get a feat, new spells at levels 1, 2, and 3, along with my bloodline level 3 spell (Shifting Sands) and first bloodline bonus feat (probably Skill Focus: Perception). I'm thinking either Web or Create Pit for the level 2 spell. Maybe Dispel Magic for level 3, though I need to look at the other options. Not sure about level 1 - maybe Charm Person, though I've got the social skills to rarely need it.

I also have 8k gold after last night, and no idea what to spend it on. I'm thinking maybe a belt to boost my con to 16, and/or upgrading my cloak of resistance from +1 to +2. Anything more exciting for a sorcerer to spend that kind of money on besides straight up defense that way? Any good wands I should consider? I can use wands of any class's spells using UMD, so any suggestions are welcome. Actually, given my role in the party of setting the rest of the party up to win, then sitting back doing nothing, picking up a wand of Cure Moderate or Cure Serious might give me something else to do after the first 2-3 rounds of longer fights. I already use a wand of Cure Light for that, so a better cure for higher levels might be good.

Edit: Just had an interesting idea for another wand that could be useful: Gallant Inspiration. Make absolutely certain my allies hit!


Gah fromper, this is why I wanna play my gnome with yours he does the same exact thing. That would be awesome to have the gnomes dominating the battle field as our allies freely kill things.

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