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An issue with Energy Drain came up in tonight's game. I couldn't find anything about it in the errata or FAQs, neither for the core book nor the Bestiary.
The core book has this to say about energy drain: "A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."
However, the Bestiary says: "Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature's racial HD + draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent." Bestiaries 2 and 3 share the same text.
I would guess that since the text in the Bestiaries is pretty much the same as in 3.5e, and the text in the core book is different, it means that the intention was that only very rare cases (e.g. Raise Dead) would inflict permanent negative levels. For the moment, I intend to run it using the Core book version, but it does bug me a little, and it surprises me that apparently no-one has discovered the discrepancy in the three years since PF was released.
There is no discrepancy between the CRB and the Bestiary. The reason it seems so, is because you are not reading the whole entry:
Energy Drain wrote: Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
The language that is in the CRB that does not appear in the Bestiary about "receiving a new saving throw each day" refers to if you have multiple negative levels, you get to roll a save the first day for the first negative level. If you succeed, the negative level is removed, and the next day you can roll a save for the second negative level. If the save fails, you gain a permanent negative level, and the next day you get to roll a save against the next temporary negative level. You continue this way until you have either removed all negative levels, all negative levels have been converted to permanent negative levels, or any combination of the two.
That's not how I read the CRB at all. Other than in the context of Raise Dead, there's nothing there at all about permanent negative levels - it just says you get a new save each day. And the section about Raise Dead specifically calls out that you don't get a new save each day to remove them.
Were I to read the CRB in a vacuum, there would be no doubt whatsoever that most energy drain is a temporary inconvenience (unless it kills you, of course). It's only when you look in the Bestiary as well that you get the whole thing about only getting one save, and then it becomes permanent.
In 3.5, the language about negative levels becoming permanent existed both in the DMG's description of "Energy Drain and Negative Levels" (the equivalent of the CRB rules), and in the MM's glossary. In Pathfinder, the DMG's language was changed, but the MM's language was essentially unchanged.
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It depends on the source of the energy drain. Enervation's energy drain is temporary. The energy drain from the spell of the same name, and from most creatures is temporary until it is time for the fort save. If you fail the fort save then it becomes permanent.
Energy drains from being returned back to life are also permanent.
If the negative levels are temporary, but long term(more than 24 hours) you get to try to remove every day. I don't know of any long term temporary energy drains at the moment though.
wraithstrike wrote: If the negative levels are temporary, but long term(more than 24 hours) you get to try to remove every day. I don't know of any long term temporary energy drains at the moment though. So why are they even brought up in the CRB, which is after all the primary source for the game's rules?
The CRB says, via the PRD:
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Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.
For each negative level a creature has, (blah blah about the actual consequences).
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
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The main source of negative levels in the game are creatures, mostly undead. I'm fairly certain that if the intention when writing the rules was to have this level-drain be permanent, this should have been mentioned in the primary source regarding the rules of the game. They should not have written, essentially, "There are some exceptions where the negative levels are permanent, such as when brought back to life by a Raise Dead spell." They ought to have written "Generally, energy drain is permanent after you fail one save. There are some cases where you get a new save to remove it every day, such as _______."
I got a response in another thread here (about what to change in a hypothetical Pathfinder v2), which said that the CRB took precedence over the Bestiary in any case where the two differed. Not sure if that's canon, but I'm certainly going to run with that in this particular case anyway.
PRD:Evervation wrote: Usually, negative levels have a chance of becoming permanent, but the negative levels from enervation don't last long enough to do so. So, at least one occurrence in the PRD points into 'usually becoming permanent' as well.
Hmm... did the designers have an idea to handle things differently... then backpedaled and didn't re-change the description? Or do they want negative levels to be usually nonpermanent, and didn't delete all the instances of copypasta from 3.5?
I think they split the information for GM and Players. Because it is describe the Monsters and their effects. I would naturally assume a second failure is perm, just like suffering the effects of a poison or disease if you fail until you get actually healed from it.
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