@RavingDork, good idea using dastardly finish with your lvl 10 group, however as it has 5d6 sneak attack as prerequisite, it might be hard to achieve with a lvl 7 ninja.
I would try with sap master and two barreled merciful pistols, using underhanded, possibly with the bandid archetype.
However all of this assumes that the older dragon uses tactics worthy of a 8 int barbarian.
Well since everyone whines over dust of choking and sneezing, there's always the candle of invocation which you can use to have your cleric ask your friendly neighborhood Solar to crush the wyrm like a serpent beneath its heel.
It's a big angel who hates evil. You got an evil dragon. He's in the neighborhood, okay, sounds good. *CRIES OF DRACONIC AGONY*
:P
At the risk of thinking TOO outside the box: Kidnap one of it's kin, preferrably young/hatchling. Find an epic wizard. Famicide?
On a more down to earth note, looking over the spell list for this thing... I can't visualize an ordinary adventuring party killing it at that kind of level disparity. It's breath weapon is twice as many hit dice as your wizard even has. If it opened with darkness... you'd be blind as a bat and it could perfectly locate and pick you off at will. At those levels, this is a TPK waiting to happen.
Maybe there's a shop with a Candle of Evocation you could use to score a wish? "I wish this dragon would lose all it's con."
7 players, all level 7. Ninja, Inquisitor, Paladin, Druid (Feral), Summoner, Wizard, Oracle.
Can it be done with no casualties?
What are your recommendations?
Imagine they have about 10,000 expendable gold at the moment.
Not without a GM pulling punches,completely ignoring how an adult dragon SHOULD be played,super extremely lucky roles, and basically letting the players win...
It's definitely true that a well played dragon is a force to be wreckoned with. Pathfinder nerfed (or re-aligned) their challenge ratings though. Dragons in 3.x were kind of like doomsday monsters. They were generally stronger than their general CRs suggested, which was apparently a design decision to make dragons look even nastier than expected. People still played them dumb as bricks though, which resulted in "noobs" thinking dragon killing was something you did on the way to brunch with your friends.
So now dragons are more appropriate to their CR in comparison to other beasties, which is probably a good thing. They're still pretty gnarly though, even if they're not as strong as they were in 3.x. But just as an example, the dragon in question, an old dragon no less, is a 7th level spellcaster. Surprisingly low for its CR when compared to similar creatures around that CR. It doesn't even have access to 4th level spells. It has been dumbed down to an "intelligent brute". Played cunningly, it's still a battle the PCs will remember; and yet somewhat underwhelming for what it is.
I mean look at the ancient black dragon. CR 16. It's pretty much a brute. It's an ogre mage on steroids. Its HP/BAB/AC are high ('cept touch AC which is terrible); its damage reduction is worthless (DR 15/magic, oh noes); its spell selection is garbage (oh really, an 11d6 DC 18 cone of cold, a CL 11 dispel magic vs CL 13 spells if the party is CR-3); most of its brutish combat routine can be easily tanked with an application of stoneskin; it's feat selection is counter-intuitive to its strengths (it has lots of feats spent on the Vital Strike-line and yet it should either be fly-by-attacking or full-attacking, as its bite damage is not impressive); it has a 15 ft. reach with it's bite and a 10 ft. reach with everything else (which has been trumped way back at 1st level with some warriors with longspears and a potion of enlarge self); even it's line of acid is 70 average damage with a save for half, before applying energy resistances, evasion, or anything similar.
A Planetar makes it look like a pansy, having similar Hp/AC; regeneration 10 except vs aligned spells and weapons; DR 10/evil (which is actually a real DR as opposed to a pretend DR like 15/magic); better senses; better immunities; waaaaaay better spells; better all-round defenses; etc.
Much as I hate to say it, black dragons aren't that bad for their CR. Most of the difficulty comes from dealing with them in their own lairs, on their home turf, which is generally a nightmare with most enemies. Out and about, a black dragon just doesn't have much going for it in the grand scheme of things.
It's very unique.
Hang your head in shame. Something is either unique, or it isn't - something can't be more unique than something else, it can't be a little unique, or very unique, or even totally unique.
(Cue tantrum in which I jump up and down and break anything within reach that will shatter).
Maybe there's a shop with a Candle of Evocation you could use to score a wish? "I wish this dragon would lose all it's con."
This won't work, a wish can duplicate up to 8th level spell (and allows spell resistance) so unless you can find a spell without a save which will do 24 con damage...
It's very unique.Hang your head in shame. Something is either unique, or it isn't - something can't be more unique than something else, it can't be a little unique, or very unique, or even totally unique.
(Cue tantrum in which I jump up and down and break anything within reach that will shatter).
Maybe there's a shop with a Candle of Evocation you could use to score a wish? "I wish this dragon would lose all it's con."This won't work, a wish can duplicate up to 8th level spell (and allows spell resistance) so unless you can find a spell without a save which will do 24 con damage...
Ah, slay dragon. does D% con damage with no save, but only to dragons. everyone else gets polymorphed into a dragon, then takes the damage. ;)
if it wasn't immune to acid i'd suggest you have the whole party bombard it with acid arrows (scrolls, wands, whatever you can get your hands on), then trap it in a resilient sphere while the damage happens. rinse and repeat until target is dead.
may work with sonic substitution on the acid arrows but that'll up the price of the wands a fair bit.
Ashiel, as far as I know the only items I've expressed concern over in any recent threads are the too-cheap cost of the "ring of sustenance" and this attempt to blatantly cheese up the creation of a cursed item which is basically an "I win" device. Using "dust of sneezing and choking" a level seven party could kill just about anything. 5d4 STUN if it SUCCEEDS on a save, and 3d6 con damage in addition if it fails? You are seriously defending RD's desire to make that stuff on demand at level 7?
And on the ring I even gave you credit for making me revisit my evaluation of its power.
If you follow any other threads you would see that I can be quite generous as a GM, allowing custom feats or races to allow concepts to be played. I always do my best to allow the players to have fun. But reducing a dragon battle to tossing a bag of dust at its nose and then beating it to death while stunned isn't my idea of "fun". And what party after disposing of a dragon with the dust isn't going to just carry a backpack full of it to insta-win every possible encounter?
This is just exploit cheese, pure and simple.
UPDATE, oh yeah, I also expressed concern about the unlimited use of a quickened true strike ring...
So, yeah, I do have a concern about maintaining balance...
Ooooh. Quickened True Strike ring - that is SUCH a vicious idea. One of my refs would probably die on the spot at the idea given his irritation with the party tank's 'headband of true strike 3/day'. Of course, since they downgraded power attack it's not as bad as it was.
I think that although the 'crafting items' rules are in general a 'good thing', there are a number of game breaking (to a greater or lesser degree) things that the RAW allow you to make which a GM with an eye for play balance should probably forbid. Many of these are super useful first level spells which are very cheap to turn into constant magical effects (boots of expeditious retreat, no fighter should be without, amulets of shield...)
Of course, were such things possible to make, the items which low level characters could make and then retire would be things like 'item of unseen servant' (who wouldn't get one for their ironing, and what inn would be without - cheaper than a barmaid in the long run and doesn't end up flirting with the customers), 'amulet of alter self' (want a night of passion with Brad Pitt or Angeline Jolie? or just work off the Christmas dinner without actually having to do any exercise?)
xx
Ashiel, as far as I know the only items I've expressed concern over in any recent threads are the too-cheap cost of the "ring of sustenance" and this attempt to blatantly cheese up the creation of a cursed item which is basically an "I win" device. Using "dust of sneezing and choking" a level seven party could kill just about anything. 5d4 STUN if it SUCCEEDS on a save, and 3d6 con damage in addition if it fails? You are seriously defending RD's desire to make that stuff on demand at level 7?
And on the ring I even gave you credit for making me revisit my evaluation of its power.
If you follow any other threads you would see that I can be quite generous as a GM, allowing custom feats or races to allow concepts to be played. I always do my best to allow the players to have fun. But reducing a dragon battle to tossing a bag of dust at its nose and then beating it to death while stunned isn't my idea of "fun". And what party after disposing of a dragon with the dust isn't going to just carry a backpack full of it to insta-win every possible encounter?
This is just exploit cheese, pure and simple.
UPDATE, oh yeah, I also expressed concern about the unlimited use of a quickened true strike ring...
So, yeah, I do have a concern about maintaining balance...
You know, I had a similar thought to Ashiel's but that's because there is someone who has a similar avatar to yours that seems to blast any and all ideas and disallows anything that isn't the utmost benefit for himself. I don't remember who it is and now that I think of it, can't remember what threads he's in either :(
You can take advantage of an enemy’s debilitated state to attempt a coup de grace.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +5d6.
Benefit: You can deliver a coup de grace to cowering or stunned targets.
Normal: You can only coup de grace helpless targets.
The 5d4 rounds of Stun would make killing Dragons and anyone else susceptible to a coup de grace extremely easy.
Even if that weren't the case, 5d4 rounds of stun is 5d4 rounds of free attacks. That will, generally, mean death for the stunned beasty.
Ah, I didn't think to check Dastardly Finish. Never mind. :)
@Adamantine Dragon if you did that i would walk away from the table... just because you don't like that someone came up with a creative solution that is spelled out as working RAW doesn't mean you can change the rules of the game on the fly... you may be DM, but that doesn't (contrary to popular belief) make you god of the table.
Good, maybe the next player won't try to exploit loopholes.
Using the dust of sneezing and choking sounds like a good way to ask for TPK. I mean, do you really want a creature with a breath weapon sneezing? A DM could easily rule that the breath weapon goes off whenever the dragon sneezes.
That's pretty hilarious, I must admit.
On another note? Who was the genius who priced the Candle of Invocation? The "calling" function of the spell has a spell component price of 10k gold alone and the candle is only worth 8.400 gp.
@Magnuskin, the game is filled with brokenness, and if you try to curb it in any way to maintain your personal idea of "balance" for your campaigns, those who want to exploit the brokenness will scream "you are crapping on my brilliant inventiveness!" And if you try to defend your position on its brokenness they will find something even more outrageously broken as "proof" that it is not broken at all.
I love Ashiel and even have great respect for Raving Dork, but when they propose allowing seventh level casters to create dust that stuns ANY CREATURE for 5d4 rounds with NO SAVE by saying, well, that's nothing, by RAW my wizard can spawn herds of flying tarrasque mounts, so there!" It becomes apparent to me that in some respects we are playing very different games. I can only assume that in 3.5 the existence of "pun-pun" must have been an open invitation to call any conceivable item "unbroken."
I would be remiss though not to admit that the arguments presented on the "ring of sustenance" and "ring of true strike" have caused me to lessen my objection to them. So I can be convinced...
There are several items which, if allowed just as written, would break level appropiate balance.
The Dust of Choking and Sneezing obviously isn't supposed to be easily obtained by players via item crafting, because as an on-demand item it is utterly and laughingly obviously broken.
The Candle of Invocation is equally obviously underprized for what it can do.
Sure, as a GM you can threaten mutually assured destruction of players want to serially cheese the game via exploits, but in the end it is better for both sides to recognize that those exploits only end up being a cheat code for encounters which otherwise would be hard but do-able.
That being said, putting a CR 14 dragon against a level 7 party is unreasonable. At least if everyone is supposed to be surviving that encounter...
That being said, putting a CR 14 dragon against a level 7 party is unreasonable. At least if everyone is supposed to be surviving that encounter...
True. And if the exploit RD and Ashiel are championing was in the spirit of "Oh yeah? Well if the GM wants to play ith THAT way, here's how you nail him!" Then I missed that and would apologize. I had the impression they were arguing in support of crafting the dust as perfectly balanced game behavior.
To wrap up, I think the encounter is unfair, but with a suitably experienced and clever group, I'd love to tackle that dragon...
On another note? Who was the genius who priced the Candle of Invocation? The "calling" function of the spell has a spell component price of 10k gold alone and the candle is only worth 8.400 gp.
I dunno. It's been that way through 3 editions now (3.0, 3.5, PF).
Ashiel, as far as I know the only items I've expressed concern over in any recent threads are the too-cheap cost of the "ring of sustenance" and this attempt to blatantly cheese up the creation of a cursed item which is basically an "I win" device. Using "dust of sneezing and choking" a level seven party could kill just about anything. 5d4 STUN if it SUCCEEDS on a save, and 3d6 con damage in addition if it fails? You are seriously defending RD's desire to make that stuff on demand at level 7?
I was joking about the item price thing, because it seems like most of the threads I see you in, there you are, talking about how something else is amazingly broken and how it should cost 50-100% of a 20th level character's WBL for something relatively mild. Be it a ring of sustenance, quickened true-strike, and weren't you in the discussion about Daern's Instant Fortress?
Ah, no matter. It was a joke either way.
But yes, I suppose I was defending Ravingdork's desire to intentionally create a cursed item, because technically you can intentionally make cursed items. It's actually really easy to create cursed items, because you can engineer your item to just the point where you would fail hard enough to curse it.
That being said, I'm not sure why the buffed the dust of choking and sneezing. It was a bit weaker in 3.x.
Dust of Sneezing and Choking
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.
Faint conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, poison; Price 2,400 gp.
For one the con damage didn't all hit at the same time (it was 2-12 then another 1-6 10 rounds later, now it just comes in 3-18, which is way more likely to kill you before you can get help). The stunning time is the same though. This is also an old trick (TM) that has been around for years and years. It's actually amusing to see all these old tricks being posted about on the boards like they're new and the next big thing to shatter a campaign.
Don't buckle in pressure my friend. So the party has a no-save vs stunning item that affects a 20 ft. spread next to the user. It's not the end of the world. Heck, there's a lot of cases where using the dust would be a bad idea. Barring immunity (more or less anything that doesn't breath, lacks a Con score, etc), you need the proper space and/or conditions to be dusting stuff (be within 25 ft, not having your dust blown around, not underwater, etc), and you risk an enemy doing the same to you.
And on the ring I even gave you credit for making me revisit my evaluation of its power.
For the record, I consider that a sign of great intelligence. It is easy to bury our heads in the ground and remain stalwart regardless of evidence put forth, but it is the ability to scrutinize your own stance for errors is harder and more noteworthy.
If you follow any other threads you would see that I can be quite generous as a GM, allowing custom feats or races to allow concepts to be played. I always do my best to allow the players to have fun. But reducing a dragon battle to tossing a bag of dust at its nose and then beating it to death while stunned isn't my idea of "fun". And what party after disposing of a dragon with the dust isn't going to just carry a backpack full of it to insta-win every possible encounter?
This is just exploit cheese, pure and simple.
Maybe I've just gotten used to these sorts of things. Doesn't really bother me in stuff like Star Wars either, where stun-weapons are godly (if you hit a foe with a stun weapon, they make a save or be knocked out, or are stunned 1 round on a successful save). It's just always been part of the game, and maybe I've just come to the conclusion that it's really not that common even if it is possible, and it still hasn't messed up anything in my games in all these years. I guess the stress tolerance of my games is pretty high. :\
I really was just kidding about stuff being allowed in your games though. It was meant purely as a tongue-in-cheek jest. :)
UPDATE, oh yeah, I also expressed concern about the unlimited use of a quickened true strike ring...
So, yeah, I do have a concern about maintaining balance...
Balance is a funny thing. It has never existed in 3.x/Pathfinder. At best, some things were removed or toned down, often the things that didn't need to be. Some other things were made more broken, and martials have never recovered from the severe loss of power from 3.0 to 3.5.
At the same time, there is this thing that kind of resembles balance in 3.x/PF, which is relative to everything else in this sort of cosmic butterfly-effect kind of way. Things can be compared, some things are clearly or less clearly inferior, some things don't work right within the system, etc. Yet the actual line of balance is a very broad and shifting one; like a mirage or something made of shadowstuff. Quasi-real. It's there, and yet it never has been.
@Magnuskin, the game is filled with brokenness, and if you try to curb it in any way to maintain your personal idea of "balance" for your campaigns, those who want to exploit the brokenness will scream "you are crapping on my brilliant inventiveness!" And if you try to defend your position on its brokenness they will find something even more outrageously broken as "proof" that it is not broken at all.
I love Ashiel and even have great respect for Raving Dork, but when they propose allowing seventh level casters to create dust that stuns ANY CREATURE for 5d4 rounds with NO SAVE by saying, well, that's nothing, by RAW my wizard can spawn herds of flying tarrasque mounts, so there!" It becomes apparent to me that in some respects we are playing very different games. I can only assume that in 3.5 the existence of "pun-pun" must have been an open invitation to call any conceivable item "unbroken."
I would be remiss though not to admit that the arguments presented on the "ring of sustenance" and "ring of true strike" have caused me to lessen my objection to them. So I can be convinced...
I don't believe I ever once claimed that having player characters making dust of choking and sneezing wasn't broken, quite the opposite actually. Just because I argue that it CAN be done in the RAW, doesn't mean I think it SHOULD be done.
If I were GM I would not likely allow its crafting either. It's simply too unbalanced.
Bottom line is that I just need to take a deep breath and find the humor in these things more often instead of leaping into the fray like a paladin with a pine cone stuck in his codpiece....
Do appreciate the acknowledgement of my willingness to learn and adjust my positions... I really do try to keep my mind open, even when it appears to be shut like an ... adamantine dragon skull... ;-)
On another note? Who was the genius who priced the Candle of Invocation? The "calling" function of the spell has a spell component price of 10k gold alone and the candle is only worth 8.400 gp.
...and can be created by a properly built 3rd level caster.
But lets not go there.
Bottom line is that I just need to take a deep breath and find the humor in these things more often instead of leaping into the fray like a paladin with a pine cone stuck in his codpiece....
Do appreciate the acknowledgement of my willingness to learn and adjust my positions... I really do try to keep my mind open, even when it appears to be shut like an ... adamantine dragon skull... ;-)
You also win the award for most amusing metaphor of the day. XD
A bag of holding and lava.
Seriously, Philter of Love and Helm of Opposite Alignment. Best Black Dragon Buddies Forever!
Yup, then he can have his cake, and eat you too!
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Dude is totally gonna make a permanent magnificent mansion inside his stomach, swallow you whole, and carry you around everywhere with him.
"Presenting, Lord Marshall Ezekial Logath, Lord of Wyrms!"
*Blegh* "Hello everybody!" *Prestidigitation*
On another note? Who was the genius who priced the Candle of Invocation? The "calling" function of the spell has a spell component price of 10k gold alone and the candle is only worth 8.400 gp.I dunno. It's been that way through 3 editions now (3.0, 3.5, PF).
The calling function of Gate didn't have a 10k gp material component in 3.0 and 3.5. The price is an artefact from those editions and should be adjusted accordingly. It's still dirt cheap, compared to its power level, but not as readily available as at 8.400 gp.
Answer to the dust of sneezing and choking is a minor wondrous item tucked under a scale - or more likely worn as a 'nose ring' - known as a necklace of adaptation. If the dust isn't inhaled, thanks to the necklace, it doesn't affect him.
That and it would take more along the lines of 100 or so botched attempts at creating other magical dusts to come up with a single batch of dust of sneezing and choking.
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Reading through this I had a few thoughts.
Cursed items - they come from failed rolls yes, but you don't know they are cursed till you try them, evil NPCs simply keep the failures around to use on other people in the future.
Most good or neautral NPCs tend to try and save the materials for recasting.
Artefact can be created by PCs, but is a major plot point of a storyline.
As for the Dragon, I'd use the rules for wordcasting, give them minions appropriate to their location, multiple hidden lairs it runs its domain from before I even consider how the party was going to handle it.
Dragons in my game all tend to empire build, to explain where most of their hoards come from :)
Update: Had forgotten about the check for curse was a DC check. Been a while since I dealt with cursed items.
Determining if an item is cursed is accomplished simply by beating the identify DC by 10 or more. Once you know it's cursed, determining the nature of the curse requires only a DC check of the original item. So it's not hard.
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I would consider it an evil act to keep a cursed item to use on another person, so it does have implications for the paladin...No, intent is everything.
I'd put it to a vote with the group, and let it go with majority.
It is also different depending on the god they serve. But in general its not a "good" thing to carry around something cursed or evil...
If the player can justify it to me in terms of their character I would allow it.
As long as it become a precedent for NPCs and table majority vote.
As a GM I encourage players to tell me their plans ahead of time, as I am willing to point out things they have missed as their character might know where as the player has missed it.
And NPCs rarely use it against them, unless they have access to the information somehow (i.e. scry, spies, direct observation).
It also lets me look up the rules in advance so to try and make the heroic win the tales of legend, or their defeat tragic based on how well it plays out.
:)
Just did the battle at Sandpoint from Rise of the Runelords book 4 vs a red dragon and it almost took out a party member by drowning, spent most of the battle out of reach and left before they could defeat it.
And it was a juvenile red, against a party of 11th level characters.
Dragons are still awesome if played intelligently. :)
I would consider it an evil act to keep a cursed item to use on another person, so it does have implications for the paladin...
I don't see how this would be any more evil than using any other harmful magical item.
Well, using the "Create Greater Undead" option to make a Greater Shadow definitely is evil.
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I would consider it an evil act to keep a cursed item to use on another person, so it does have implications for the paladin...I don't see how this would be any more evil than using any other harmful magical item.
Only for the "Cursed" part.
Carrying cursed items should not be heroic.
I play for heroic style in fantasy, so no assassins, killing the innocent, that sort of thing.
Stated upfront in my games, the games are meant to be fun, and that's the level of fun I look for.
Though I am a sucker for a good story, and if presented with a good enough case for it, I have been know to let it play though with the caveat that if it screws with the game balance/player enjoyment it might be removed later
I would consider it an evil act to keep a cursed item to use on another person, so it does have implications for the paladin...I don't see how this would be any more evil than using any other harmful magical item.Only for the "Cursed" part.
Carrying cursed items should not be heroic.
I play for heroic style in fantasy, so no assassins, killing the innocent, that sort of thing.
Stated upfront in my games, the games are meant to be fun, and that's the level of fun I look for.
Though I am a sucker for a good story, and if presented with a good enough case for it, I have been know to let it play though with the caveat that if it screws with the game balance/player enjoyment it might be removed later
Cursed =! Evil.
Bestow Curse isn't even evil. It doesn't even have the really shady subtype that prevents Good aligned clerics from casting it.
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Cursed does not equal evil, but maybe creating a curse item does, more up to the group as a whole to decide than a single person.
My group had a different take on it.
Using a cursed item as a weapon affects the person using it as a weapon and not the target, hence the curse, and I'm happy for people to create them at that stage.
i.e. can't use the dust against the dragon as the curse effects you not the dragon.
