Agile weapon + double slice feat


Rules Questions


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Would I get full dex to my off hand assuming I'm not in an anti magic field or whatnot?


No. The double slice feat specifically calls out strength, and the agile specifically says you only get half of your dex mod to your off-hand attack.


Yeah, that's what I thought, just hoped it was the other way.

Grand Lodge

Guided uses your full wisdom, no more, no less. Primary, or off-hand. Good for wisdom users. Bad luck about the agile enchantment.


Guided? Where's that?


Though check with your GM as some would allow full dex since your using one instead of the other for the damage.

Liberty's Edge

It can always be in question how it would be RAI with regards to Core feats mixed with resources that came out later.

********
Agile: A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier.
********
Double Slice:
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.

Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.
********

Apply dex instead of strength. Double slice mentions strength, the item says replace strength with dex. I can see it going that way as well. Normal attacks call out strength as well for damage, so the feat being specific can be in question


If this is for Pathfinder Society, I'd say talk to your coordinator. If it were me GMing, I would allow it simply because you're already spending two feats and a +1 bonus on your weapon in order to pull this off. But then again, I've always thought that Agility fighters have had to jump through too many hoops to be competitive.


I think the restriction is to not allow on ability to completely replace another. That also makes it a lot easier to dump more stats.

Liberty's Edge

My interpretation was strictly global.

On a note about PFS, it sometimes is best to err on the side of caution. If your local coordinators and GMs see it as being allowed, fine. But, if you go to conventions, be prepared to have a GM shoot it down.


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FAQing in hopes of clarifcation.


Is the SRD entry not good enough?
Agile

Quote:

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

It replaces Str in a very specific way


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That only prevents two-handing for more damage and says that just like str its reduced for the off hand nothing about what happens if something changes the amount of str you could apply.


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but is still reduced for offhand weapons.

RAW is pretty clear on this.
I would also assume that Agile was written after(therefore aware of) Double Slice, and this was intentional.

As for

Ishpumalibu wrote:
Guided? Where's that?

Guided


As for Agile:
I figure if dex was intended to completely replace str they would have stated that it replaced str in all ways except for.....


Once again on the off hand thing its pointing out that while you don't get to double up you still only get half for off hand something that STR does as well which is why it is still debatable. And yes agile came second that doesn't mean that simply because it doesn't have a disclaimer pointing out that its half dex unless you have double slice doesn't change anything.

Also that whole line shows that its to be used just like str is for light weapons which can't be double up on for extra str either so that players don't try to get away with taking agile and claiming that the 2-handing light weapon restriction is talking about STR and since they are using dex it doesn't apply to them so they get double dex on damage.

Wraith in what way as far as weapon damage goes is the dex not replacing str.


It says you add dex instead of damage. It does not say the dex mod is acting exactly like the str mod would.
RAW up until that point you add full dex mod damage to all attacks, but then it goes on to say you only add half of dex to the off-hand attack, and it says you never multiply dex by 1.5 even when using a weapon in 2-hands.
If it was actually replacing strength they could just say dex replaces str in all ways except for when you are wielding 2-handed weapons, and in that case your dex mode is not multiplied by 1.5.


Either way it could still be read to be affected by double strike. And like i said in my last post the no 1.5 is aimed at preventing people trying to claim that their dex isn't str and therefore would get multiplied even though str wouldn't for these weapons(whip strangly excluded and strange because of it.


In order to act like str for the purpose of effects that would have to be stated. The way it is written does not make it work that way.

It can be implied, but the RAW does not support. As for RAI I don't think that is true either, but I can see how one could see it that way.

All it does, not that this is a small thing, is allow you to be a dex based fighter, and still do decent damage. Taking a 13 str to get power attack while pushing everything else into dex is not bad at all.

Better yet I think Piranha Strike probably works just as good without the 13 str.


Thats the reason i hit the button up top Its not cut and dried and having a answer would keep someone from getting different rulings at different tables.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

I'd rule the damage would be increased by double slice. It lets you use Dex for damage instead of Str, and double slice changes how your Str works with an off-hand weapon. Paizo's faq-meisters might see it differently.

Now if you had a feat or ability that increased your Str multiplier when two-handing (like Overhand Chop did), you'd be caught by the clause under agile, and would not have your multiplier increased.

As for why the writer didn't write "replaces Str in all ways except...", because that wording's rather cumbersome for what's being done. It's only replacing one thing Str does, and modifying it slightly.

The bit about "still reduced for off-hand weapons" is just coverage for people claiming that off-hand weapons wouldn't normally be reduced in effectiveness. It doesn't keep the creature from taking advantage of some other means of preventing that reduction.


Sorry if this is dredging up a dead thread, but I was asking myself the same question recently. I have to disagree that RAW doesn't support it actually. If you read "double slice", it simply reads:

"Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon."

This *replaces* the regular clause "add half your strength", as obviously you're not getting 1.5x strength with your offhand.

Now let's move to agile. The first part of the clause:

"A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier."

It does replace Strength with Dex for damage roles, so so far, so good. The second part of the clause:

"This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons."

Ok, so we still reduce for the off hand, but notice that no reduction is specified, so you'd use the normal reduction. The problem is, the normal reduction has been *replaced* by a reduction of 0%.

Yes, I can see this being ruled either way, it depends on when and how one replaces things, but I at the very least don't think the RAW is "very clear" about this.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The wording for the Agile weapon quality is pretty clear:

Agile weapon special ability wrote:
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. The agile weapon enhancement can only be placed on melee weapons that are usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Emphasis mine.

That means that when you apply your Dexterity modifier to an off-hand weapon, you reduce it by half.

Double Slice ONLY negates that if you're using your Strength modifier.

The flavor of the Agile weapon special ability is that the weapon allows you to strike with exact and surgical care to inflict more damage, rather than use your brawn to strike more ferociously.

As the developer for this weapon quality (and if I remember correctly, I also designed it, but actual design work gets kinda murky in a lot of products where there are multiple authors), I can confirm that the intent of the Agile weapon quality is primarily intended to bolster builds who fight with a single one-handed weapon—it's a swashbuckler type quality. Those who use brawn to fight with a two-handed weapon and those who use two weapons have plenty of damage already due to the way Strength modifies damage on a 2 handed weapon or to the simple fact that fighting with two weapons gives you more opportunities to do damage.

Agile is intended to work best when you have a single one-handed or light weapon.

Things the Agile special ability will NOT let you do:

1) Add 1.5 times your Dexterity modifier when wielding the weapon 2 handed. This means that putting the agile ability on a weapon that requires 2 hands to use is pretty much a waste of money.

2) Add your full Dexterity modifier to an off-hand weapon when you're using Double Slice. You get half your Dex modifier on this off-hand weapon if it's an agile weapon.

This means that if you don't intend to use Strength to modify your melee attacks, then you shouldn't take Double Slice as a feat.


Wow, everyone's a necromancer lately...

I love that answer, though the point 1 at the bottom isn't necessarily true - a guy with an 18 DEX and a 10 STR won't get to add 1.5x his DEX modifier with a 2H weapon, but would certainly appreciate getting to add +4 damage - hardly a "waste of money".

However, are there any finessable weapons that require two hands? If not, then it's moot, and if so, the extra damage would be appreciated even if not multiplied.


Or, to put it another way, you normally get more damage on a two-handed weapon because you can apply more strength to it with two hands as opposed to one. But you can't really "apply more dexterity" with two hands over one. By the same logic, double slice lets you swing in such a way that you increase the strength normally leveraged on the attack; but how, exactly, would you swing in such a way to add in more dexterity? Now, by contrast, if there were a hypothetical feat that said to treat your off-hand attack as a main-hand attack to adjudicate damage (such as with Monk unarmed strikes), that would be an entirely different story.

Silver Crusade

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DM_Blake wrote:
However, are there any finessable weapons that require two hands? If not, then it's moot, and if so, the extra damage would be appreciated even if not multiplied.

The exception of many mixed opinions: Elven Curved Blade


The other point with Double Slice is that you still do half damage on your off hand with Power Attack AND with Piranha Strike.

Basically, you give up the "bonus" damage on your off hand in exchange for getting that extra attack each round. If you want to do more damage on each attack, drop the second weapon and put everything into your primary attack. Otherwise, accept the price you pay for two-weapon fighting.

(I say this as the owner of a TWF Fighter/Rogue who just got her fourth attack each round. I'm thinking of renaming her "Cuisinart"...)


Well TWF has it's own advantages. If you have abilities that trigger on a hit like sneak attack or enforcer then twf is a beast. TWF I think is designed well to not do crazy damages for abilities liek that.

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