Why would you even choose fighter, or barbarian for that matter, if you are going to have a mainly non-combat game?
To prove that a Fighter is a bad class because it can't keep up with the Wizard and Rogue in the intreague themed social action campaign.
Here's that ranger build I've been playing with.
Human Ranger 6
HP:49 (assuming average dice and favored class bonuses.)
Built on 15 pointbuy
Str:18 +4
Dex:15 +2
Con:12 +1
Int:10 +0
Wis:12 +1
Cha:7 -2
Feats:
1 Two Weapon Fighting
1 Imp Shield Bash
2 Shield Slam
3 Power Attack
5 Imp Bullrush
6 Shield Master
Traits:
Adopted (Glory of Old)
Armor Expert
Racial:
Bonus Feat
Heart of the Wilderness (losing "Skilled")
Features:
Endurance
Combat Style (Weapon and Shield)
Favored Enemy1 : (Campaign appropriate 1) +4
Favored Enemy 2: (Campaign Appropriate 2) +2
Track
Wild Empathy
Favored Terrain (campaign appropriate)
Skills:
Survival:
AC: 25 or 23 (without buckler) (+10 Armor, +3 Shield, +1 Dex)
CMD: 21
Saves: F:8 R:9 W:5 (+1 against spells, +1 against poison)
Attacks: +1 Spiked Heavy Shield +11/+6 1d8+5 and +1 Kukri +9 1d4+3 and
Power Attacking:
CMB: +10
Gear: +1 Breastplate, +1 Spiked Heavy Steel Shield, +1 Kukri, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Now I know theres several ways to build this but this is just whipped up together rather quickly. I'm sure something is wrong but i've no time to correct it right now. I'll explain later. Also I'll put the skills in. And everything else.
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Here's that ranger build I've been playing with.
** spoiler omitted **
Now I know theres several ways to build this but this is just whipped up together rather quickly. I'm sure something is wrong but i've no time to correct it right now. I'll explain later. Also I'll put the skills in. And everything else.
Your AC should only be a 22. Your ranger is going to have a -6 armor check penalty.
The CWI is in there because it has substantial benefits AND makes the character productive during 'down time'. This is NOT cheese. Paizo even went ahead and made it so you could do 4 hours of work a day WHILE ADVENTURING to maximize use of this.
THis is because some AP's, like, say, Carrion Crown, give you no downtime whatsoever, except time to travel between destinations. Others, like River Kings and Serpents Skull, give you TONS of downtime.
And, of course, a campaign at home dealt with realistically is going to have down time. Example: the wizard starts making magic items every day. Now, the rest of the party has a choice...sit on their doofuses doing nothing while the wizard profits at 500 gp/day, or go adventuring WITHOUT HIM, maximizing their xp and loot haul while he maximizes his gear
Or, they can craft themselves. So, it's either sit and watch the wizard double his WBL; leave him behind in levels; or do the same thing the wizard is, maximizing EVERYONE's time and gold.
And realistically, there aren't too many feats that dole out the bang that crafting can do. Getting nice gear 2-4 levels sooner, getting more varied gear...that's all extremely powerful stuff, especially if the party trades off with one another.
========
Ashiel, the NPC wizard using Fabricate isn't a problem. The fighter is already wearing a +2 INt headband with the smithing ranks. Hand it over and cast once, good to go. He's already got the high base Int. Heck, the wizard will probably make an identical one once he realizes how much money he can sell mithral full plate for.
Secondly, a level 1 Expert with 12 Int (+1), 1 Skill rank (+1), Favored class bonus (+3), Skill Focus (+3) and masterwork tools (+2), starts at a +10 on that Aid Another check, which is auto-pass.
==Aelryinth
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The CWI is in there because it has substantial benefits AND makes the character productive during 'down time'. This is NOT cheese. Paizo even went ahead and made it so you could do 4 hours of work a day WHILE ADVENTURING to maximize use of this.
THis is because some AP's, like, say, Carrion Crown, give you no downtime whatsoever, except time to travel between destinations. Others, like River Kings and Serpents Skull, give you TONS of downtime.
And, of course, a campaign at home dealt with realistically is going to have down time. Example: the wizard starts making magic items every day. Now, the rest of the party has a choice...sit on their doofuses doing nothing while the wizard profits at 500 gp/day, or go adventuring WITHOUT HIM, maximizing their xp and loot haul while he maximizes his gear
Or, they can craft themselves. So, it's either sit and watch the wizard double his WBL; leave him behind in levels; or do the same thing the wizard is, maximizing EVERYONE's time and gold.
And realistically, there aren't too many feats that dole out the bang that crafting can do. Getting nice gear 2-4 levels sooner, getting more varied gear...that's all extremely powerful stuff, especially if the party trades off with one another.
========
Ashiel, the NPC wizard using Fabricate isn't a problem. The fighter is already wearing a +2 INt headband with the smithing ranks. Hand it over and cast once, good to go. He's already got the high base Int. Heck, the wizard will probably make an identical one once he realizes how much money he can sell mithral full plate for.Secondly, a level 1 Expert with 12 Int (+1), 1 Skill rank (+1), Favored class bonus (+3), Skill Focus (+3) and masterwork tools (+2), starts at a +10 on that Aid Another check, which is auto-pass.
==Aelryinth
Not to mention the stuff that you find along the way.
The CWI is in there because it has substantial benefits AND makes the character productive during 'down time'. This is NOT cheese. Paizo even went ahead and made it so you could do 4 hours of work a day WHILE ADVENTURING to maximize use of this.
THis is because some AP's, like, say, Carrion Crown, give you no downtime whatsoever, except time to travel between destinations. Others, like River Kings and Serpents Skull, give you TONS of downtime.
And, of course, a campaign at home dealt with realistically is going to have down time. Example: the wizard starts making magic items every day. Now, the rest of the party has a choice...sit on their doofuses doing nothing while the wizard profits at 500 gp/day, or go adventuring WITHOUT HIM, maximizing their xp and loot haul while he maximizes his gear
Or, they can craft themselves. So, it's either sit and watch the wizard double his WBL; leave him behind in levels; or do the same thing the wizard is, maximizing EVERYONE's time and gold.
And realistically, there aren't too many feats that dole out the bang that crafting can do. Getting nice gear 2-4 levels sooner, getting more varied gear...that's all extremely powerful stuff, especially if the party trades off with one another.
========
Ashiel, the NPC wizard using Fabricate isn't a problem. The fighter is already wearing a +2 INt headband with the smithing ranks. Hand it over and cast once, good to go. He's already got the high base Int. Heck, the wizard will probably make an identical one once he realizes how much money he can sell mithral full plate for.Secondly, a level 1 Expert with 12 Int (+1), 1 Skill rank (+1), Favored class bonus (+3), Skill Focus (+3) and masterwork tools (+2), starts at a +10 on that Aid Another check, which is auto-pass.
==Aelryinth
Good point Aelryinth. I actually hadn't considered making +Int items to get ranks in Craft skills. Very smart my friend, very smart. :)
Another example of producing infinite money by 13th level, and definitely a way to produce the goods quick, fast, and in a hurry.
+1 for Aelryinth. :3
Don't give me the credit. The commoner build posted a while ago did the same thing, and the Fabricate route to instant riches is tried and true on the 3.5 boards for YEARS. Although the real abuse is making Poison, since you can make a ton of poison by volume, and its so damn expensive. The PF solution of tying INt headbands to particular skills just formalizes how to go about it.
==Aelryinth
Also, for those who weren't pleased with my example of an enervation bomb, yeah, I do expect that you should have some measure of way to deal with that. Having a cloak of displacement helps. Being able to see invisibility is another good start. Being able to notice them and having a good touch AC is another. Having death ward active protects you from enervate bombing while in combat, which was my point.
You can craft an item that bestows continuous death ward for 42,000 gp. Expensive, but worth it to avoid getting drain-bombed. It's actually less expensive than a +7 weapon, and more useful. It prevents energy drain, which is pretty much needed if you are going to encounter vampires, wights, or groups of folks with enervation access (which can be easily attained with levels in excess of 10th). It also offers protection against all negative-energy based effects, which means not being overrun by CR 3 shadows; debuffed to uselessness by ray of fatigue or exhaustion; and protects you from the majority of hostile necromancy that is made of nasty.
Same with freedom of movement. Another option to get as a magic item, and is critical for avoiding being easily crowd controlled.
My point is, everyone has obstacles and issues that they can easily end up having to deal with at high levels. Combats can be dynamic, and hostile forces do not just target AC. Having ways to survive against opponents who just do not have to fight fair is something that is necessary. I commented that the Ranger I built will also die in such a scenario, or in a scenario that involves lots of CR 3 shadows, without some sort of magic item or someone around to cast death ward on them.
The point I was making when I was discussing this was in response to people railing against items that are designed using the standard item creation rules, following the standard formulas, and following all the same rules as other items within the core rulebook, and trying to suggest that they were somehow not applicable.
If you don't allow these, then martials have little chance at all, since they will die with certainty, unless the GM is intentionally coddling them and not releasing the NPCs from the bonds of "don't hurt them, they're the PCs".
EDIT:
@Nicos - Nicos, ray of enfeeblement spam is useless against arcane spellcasters unless they are melee focused. It cannot reduce your strength to less than 1; so worst case scenario, you are probably giving them a heavy load, which has 0% effect on their ability to contribute or cast spells. You would be better to attempt enervate spam all the same.
Don't give me the credit. The commoner build posted a while ago did the same thing, and the Fabricate route to instant riches is tried and true on the 3.5 boards for YEARS. Although the real abuse is making Poison, since you can make a ton of poison by volume, and its so damn expensive. The PF solution of tying INt headbands to particular skills just formalizes how to go about it.
==Aelryinth
True, true. I know fabricate is the instant method for riches, but it had never occurred to me to use a Headband of Intellect to rack ranks in the appropriate Craft skill. I usually just had a ton of Intelligence naturally, which meant good Craft checks naturally; but such routes leave Sorcerers and such in the cold.
Now a 13th level sorcerer could totally gain an instant +16 to their Craft checks. Most excellent.
Also, yes, crafting poison in large quantities is also awesome. For double the fun, minor creation can create several gallons of Black Lotus Extract (being a plant-based item) for nothing. Sure, it doesn't stick around, but that's perfect. Kill something with the poison, and you don't even have to worry about disposing of it later. :P
The CWI is in there because it has substantial benefits AND makes the character productive during 'down time'. This is NOT cheese. Paizo even went ahead and made it so you could do 4 hours of work a day WHILE ADVENTURING to maximize use of this.
THis is because some AP's, like, say, Carrion Crown, give you no downtime whatsoever, except time to travel between destinations. Others, like River Kings and Serpents Skull, give you TONS of downtime.
And, of course, a campaign at home dealt with realistically is going to have down time. Example: the wizard starts making magic items every day. Now, the rest of the party has a choice...sit on their doofuses doing nothing while the wizard profits at 500 gp/day, or go adventuring WITHOUT HIM, maximizing their xp and loot haul while he maximizes his gear
Or, they can craft themselves. So, it's either sit and watch the wizard double his WBL; leave him behind in levels; or do the same thing the wizard is, maximizing EVERYONE's time and gold.
And realistically, there aren't too many feats that dole out the bang that crafting can do. Getting nice gear 2-4 levels sooner, getting more varied gear...that's all extremely powerful stuff, especially if the party trades off with one another.
========
Ashiel, the NPC wizard using Fabricate isn't a problem. The fighter is already wearing a +2 INt headband with the smithing ranks. Hand it over and cast once, good to go. He's already got the high base Int. Heck, the wizard will probably make an identical one once he realizes how much money he can sell mithral full plate for.Secondly, a level 1 Expert with 12 Int (+1), 1 Skill rank (+1), Favored class bonus (+3), Skill Focus (+3) and masterwork tools (+2), starts at a +10 on that Aid Another check, which is auto-pass.
==Aelryinth
1.
He will most likely not have the right spell. +5 DCHe will most likely not meet the requirement on the caster level. +5 DC
He has most likely a int modifier of +1 (with his +2 item).
So compared to the wizard he faces off an Spellcraft check that is by 14 harder.
Compared to a cleric his check is about 10 harder.
Don't lecture me on the use of CWI. I play D&D. I did get the part of crafting for the value of selling items, having access to the perfect items, the perfect weapons etc pp.
Its just that those half caster classes are utterly bad at making decent items and the feat is needed once per party. So let the persons who can handle the checks take the skill.
So if you had bothered reading my post you would have got this
2. The wizard makes money by crafting items? How? The best way I see is taking the trait for 5% less costs for items.
That means he can make the difference between his 45% crafting price and the 50% selling price as profit. This translates into 50gp/day. Seriously, go slaugther some helpless goblins. It gives you that money AND xp.
Its just that those half caster classes are utterly bad at making decent items and the feat is needed once per party. So let the persons who can handle the checks take the skill.
Considering my Ranger takes 10 to create every item in my example, I assume that means the Ranger can handle the checks. He also does so with a 7 Int. :P
Well yes you are right, so let change the situation, firts 9 first level wizards cast ray of enflebement then a fifth level wizard cast ray of exhaustion.
Now the Pc wizard/sorcerer is screw.
Still not. It still won't bring their Strength to 0.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
EDIT: In fact, until you take a suitable amount of ability score damage, it won't drop them. A wizard with 7 strength will not fall to 1 strength until they take 7 or more points of ability damage. Taking 6 points of ability damage and having a -16 penalty to Strength still results in Str 1.
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8,000 gold pieces for situational bonuses to armor class and saving throws against evil foes that don't stack with a ring of protection or cloak of resistance? sounds like i am paying 8,000 for a continuous combination of immunity to mental control from evil outsiders and immunity to the natural weapons of summoned creatures. these aren't as overpowering as you think.
Edit; 4,000 gold pieces for a continuous protection from evil. forgot it was minutes and not rounds.
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At higher levels Evil outsiders are very common and they tend to summon others evil outsiders, and the magic word is INMUNITY .8,000 gold pieces for situational bonuses to armor class and saving throws against evil foes that don't stack with a ring of protection or cloak of resistance? sounds like i am paying 8,000 for a continuous combination of immunity to mental control from evil outsiders and immunity to the natural weapons of summoned creatures. these aren't as overpowering as you think.
Edit; 4,000 gold pieces for a continuous protection from evil. forgot it was minutes and not rounds.
to mental control from evil outsiders and to natural weapons from evil outsiders. the summoned baddies can still use manufactured weapons and offensive spells since they don't count as bodily contact. look at how many of the higher level evil outsiders use manufactured weapons or some kind of offensive non-enchantment oriented spell. more than you realize.
to mental control from evil outsiders and to natural weapons from evil outsiders. the summoned baddies can still use manufactured weapons since they don't count as bodily contact. look at how many of the higher level evil outsiders use manufactured weapons. more than you realize.At higher levels Evil outsiders are very common and they tend to summon others evil outsiders, and the magic word is INMUNITY .8,000 gold pieces for situational bonuses to armor class and saving throws against evil foes that don't stack with a ring of protection or cloak of resistance? sounds like i am paying 8,000 for a continuous combination of immunity to mental control from evil outsiders and immunity to the natural weapons of summoned creatures. these aren't as overpowering as you think.
Edit; 4,000 gold pieces for a continuous protection from evil. forgot it was minutes and not rounds.
Let's not forget that the effect would be caster level 1 if you want to get it for 4,000 gp. A babau could waltz up to you a punch you in the face with his fist, and that little protection spell isn't going to do much to stop it, even if he's summoned. CL 1 vs SR 17. Good luck.
It (the preventative ward) only works against summoned creatures using natural weapons. It doesn't work against called creatures, for example. It's not going to protect you from a succubus draining the life out of you by kissing you, but it will protect you from turning you into her minion.
You get what you pay for...
Also, the cost is multiply by 1.5 if adding it to an exiting magical item. So if you were adding it to a body slot, such as your armor, or a helmet that already did something, it would cost +6,000 gp. On its own (such as a cloak of protection from evil like the kind found in Neverwinter Nights) it would be 4,000 gp, like Lumiere notes.
lvl 7 ranger:
CL 4
Spellcraft:
7 Skill
-2 Int
+3 Class
= +8 on checks
DC to create a Statbooster:
5+8 base
+5 not right spell
+5 not enough caster level
= 23 DC
Now show me how your take 10 is gonna solve this.
You need at least 16 Int to be able to pass this one with a take 10.
Stick to combat feats with combat classes. Its a trend on the forums that everyone can do anything but thats just plain wrong. Switchhitters are bad. CWI on Rangers is bad.
lvl 7 ranger:
CL 4
Spellcraft:
7 Skill
-2 Int
+3 Class
= +8 on checksDC to create a Statbooster:
5+8 base
+5 not right spell
+5 not enough caster level
= 23 DCNow show me how your take 10 is gonna solve this.
You need at least 16 Int to be able to pass this one with a take 10.
This level we dump another 5 skill points into Spellcraft, and pickup Craft Wondrous Item, qualifying for it due to our caster level. Grabbing some mwk tools (spellcraft) to aid in item creation, bringing our modifier to +9. We take 1 week to craft a +1 natural armor bonus item (DC 13) for 1,000 gp, a +1 deflection item (DC 13) for 1,000 gp, a pearl of power I (DC 6) for 500 gp, enhance our mwk tools to provide a +3 competence bonus on Stealth and Spellcraft for 900 gp. We then adventure a bit. Then we take another week to craft a +1 intelligence item (DC 13) for 500 gp (giving us another 7 skill points, which we use to round out our skills), and another pearl of power I (500 gp), an elixer of hiding (DC 20) for 125 gp, add a hat of disguise effect to our +1 intelligence item (DC 11) for 1,350 gp, and create a +1 strength magic item (DC 11) for 500 gp (in preparation for 8th level). Total gear cost: 18,280 gp / 23,500. With about 5,910 gp left, we craft a quiver that has a permanent abundant ammunition on it for about 3,000 gp, and purchase some adamantine, silver, and cold iron arrows, leaving us with about 2,000 gp left for general purposes. Just for poops & giggles, we'll craft some boots of striding for 1,000 gp.
I'll be posting the 8th level ranger soon.
1. There are no tools for Spellcraft which you can make MW.
2. You cannot enhance items to +3 for spellcraft. Unless you again use our magic homebrew chart
3. You cannot craft a +1 Headband of Intelligence. Unless you again use our magic homebrew chart
4. And how is a +1 intelligence item DC 13?
I already told you that its 13 +5 +5 for you which you cannot meet.
5. A +1 intelligence item doesn't give you 7 skillpoints.
HECK NO INTELLIGENCE ITEMS GIVES YOU SKILLPOINTS!!!!111
For every +2 the item has it gives you a skill on maximum ranks. Nothing more.
6. Even with the items you can't have here its a +10 bonus on spellcraft. And the +1 intelligence headband still is a DC 23 for you.
So you CANNOT pass the test with a take 10.
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.
.
I ignored that post prior because I thought we were over it. But appereantly we aren't. You even come around and post it proudly after it took me 30 minutes of my life explaining it someone else just a page ago. Jebzuz.
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Stick to combat feats with combat classes. Its a trend on the forums that everyone can do anything but thats just plain wrong. Switchhitters are bad. CWI on Rangers is bad.
i may find Craft Wondrous Item on a ranger a little exotic, but it's no more ridiculous than a paladin who crafts wands of lesser restoration to save people money when he could be out facing evil or training a squire.
switch hitters aren't a bad thing, i think they are actually a good thing. moving away from the one trick pony to provide multiple combat options. i think that crippling levels of overspecialization in a single technique hurts my sense of immersion. which is why i build my characters around a minimum of 2 adventuring related schticks. even combat options count as Schticks for this purpose.
1. There are no tools for Spellcraft which you can make MW.
You can buy a masterwork tool keyed to a skill, by RAW in the core rulebook. You buy a tool, choose a skill, and get your bonus. I like to think of my spellcraft tool as reference guide to various esoteric formulas.
2. You cannot enhance items to +3 for spellcraft. Unless you again use our magic homebrew chart
Nothing homebrew about it. It's the rules.
3. You cannot craft a +1 Headband of Intelligence. Unless you again use our magic homebrew chart
Again, it's the rules.
4. And how is a +1 intelligence item DC 13?
The minimum caster level to craft an ability score boosting item is bonus * 3 (see requirements for them in wondrous items). The base DC for a +1 Int item is 5 + 3 = 8, +5 for not having the appropriate spell = DC 13.
I already told you that its 13 +5 +5 for you which you cannot meet.
It's not my fault you are wrong.
5. A +1 intelligence item doesn't give you 7 skillpoints.
HECK NO INTELLIGENCE ITEMS GIVES YOU SKILLPOINTS!!!!111
The item itself doesn't, but when it raises your Intelligence, it does. It raised my Ranger's Intelligence from 7 to 8, which retroactively gives me 7 more skill points. This is a big change from 3.x to Pathfinder.
6. Even with the items you can't have here its a +10 bonus on spellcraft. And the +1 intelligence headband still is a DC 23 for you.
So you CANNOT pass the test with a take 10.I ignored that post prior because I thought we were over it. But appereantly we aren't. You even come around and post it proudly after it took me 30 minutes of my life explaining it someone else just a page ago. Jebzuz.
I don't mean to be making a monkey out of you, but if you want to start arguing where my math is wrong, or where my rules-fu is failing, please feel free to cite the relevant text.
EDIT: I'll be back later. Going to go play some Baldur's Gate. I just recently got the original set up to be played with the Baldur's Gate II engine, enhanced NPC scripts & dialogs, more quests, smarter NPC AI, enhanced dungeons, original user interface, etc. Been meaning to get a little gaming in since I was away this weekend and didn't get to play D&D. :)
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the magic item creation chart is in the back of the core rulebook. any items using those formulae are core. because the formulae are in the core rulebook and thus core. it also spells out, that if there is already a similar item, you use that item's price. which invalidates the ring of true strike and the bracers of mage armor. they are no less core than a core elf with levels in core rogue.
1. By the CRB you can make Tools Masterworked. Yet I have to see an entry for Spellcraft Tools.
2. Its on the Table not in the rules -> look at the bottom
3. Its on the Table not in the rules -> look at the bottom
4.
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot belt; Weight 1 lb.; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6)
Description
This belt has a large silver buckle, usually depicting the image of a tiger. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Dexterity of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, cat's grace; Cost 2,000 gp (+2), 8,000 gp (+4), 18,000 gp (+6)
I see a fat CL 8
And still you cannot cast the appropriate spell.
5.
ASLSDFLSDFJSDFHSDFHSWERLWERWERWERJKJ
Ok. Now lets take this slowly Ashiel... you go read the rules and then we continue here, shall we ?
Then we both play by the same rules and the same game.
Headband of Vast Intelligence
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot headband; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6); Weight 1 lb.
Description
This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. a headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, fox's cunning; Cost 2,000 gp (+2), 8,000 gp (+4), 18,000 gp (+6)
So for every +2 the item has you get skillranks as if you had more int into a fixed skill
BOTTOM:
Your +1 int item is just as RAW as my Ring of Vanish, my Ring of Shield or my Boots of Expeditious Retreat.
Or for pros:
the magic item creation chart is in the back of the core rulebook. any items using those formulae are core. because the formulae are in the core rulebook and thus core. it also spells out, that if there is already a similar item, you use that item's price. which invalidates the ring of true strike and the bracers of mage armor. they are no less core than a core elf with levels in core rogue.
The Table is referenced to as a GUIDELINE and labeled ESTIMATING MAGIC ITEM GOLD PIECE VALUE.
Not to mention
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
.
.
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Even on the WotC forums it was well known and accepted that anything that came out of these formulars was broken and a house rule.
Stop making yourself look dumb with insisting that this horrible table has anything in common with RAW or not houserule. Seriously. Stop. It.
Everything that lies within that table is a brokenation contest. You wanna start it? Okay then lets judge our characters by the most creative brokenation we can create. Fine with me. But just leave this thread alone and open a new one for it.
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Tool, Masterwork
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack
Translation, for 50 gold pieces, you can get +2 to any skill you desire. a series of estoeric formulae could provide +2 to spellcraft, a masterwork pair of eyeglasses could provide +2 to perception, and a masterwork cloak could provide +2 to stealth. this was done to save page space, or they would have to publish every possible item. just like the magic item formulae.
the only reason we have to resort to formulae for a continuous deathward or protection from evil is because the writers created that chart to save space. or else the book would be a whole lot thicker.
and most of the brokenness of the chart is solved with the following words. if there is an item that does something similar, use the price of the closest applicable item.
Tool, Masterwork
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stackTranslation, for 50 gold pieces, you can get +2 to any skill you desire. a series of estoeric formulae could provide +2 to spellcraft, a masterwork pair of eyeglasses could provide +2 to perception, and a masterwork cloak could provide +2 to stealth. this was done to save page space, or they would have to publish every possible item. just like the magic item formulae.
the only reason we have to resort to formulae for a continuous deathward or protection from evil is because the writers created that chart to save space. or else the book would be a whole lot thicker.
and most of the brokenness of the chart is solved with the following words. if there is an item that does something similar, use the price of the closest applicable item.
1.
According to SRK I am wrong with the Tools.2.
No it is not going to solve anything. Stop trying to make the table look good. Its just not. Face it.
There is an item giving +4 shield AC to you and blocking magic missiles? No
There are boots that give +30ft speed? No
There is a ring that gives you Invisibility for 24 hours? No
So all fine. Even by your standards.
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@Alienfreak
so would you rather carry a book that is twice as thick and accomodates all the combinations on that chart?
or would you rather deal with the chart?
i would rather have the latter, it saves page spaces, reduces book weight. and not all the items are bad. an odd numbered stat booster or an 5 charges per day heal item aren't too broken. another part of the chart completely invalidates the ring of continuous true strike or bracers of continuous mage armor. most continuous spells are going to be buffs. and lower caster levels have all sorts of attached issues.
the +4 shield bonus to AC counts as AC (other) and costs 40,000 gold pieces on it's own. that supersedes the shield spell. even if you don't count the ring of force shield.
the boots that give +30 feet to speed follow the speed bonus rules. Speed bonus Squared divided by 10 multiplied by 2,000 gold pieces. meaning they cost 18,000 gold pieces.
and a ring that gives you invisibility all day long (assuming you wanted greater invisibility) costs 224,000 gold pieces.
these formulae supersede the spell effect chart.
@Alienfreak
so would you rather carry a book that is twice as thick and accomodates all the combinations on that chart?
or would you rather deal with the chart?
i would rather have the latter, it saves page spaces, reduces book weight. and not all the items are bad. an odd numbered stat booster or an 5 charges per day heal item aren't too broken. another part of the chart completely invalidates the ring of continuous true strike or bracers of continuous mage armor. most continuous spells are going to be buffs. and lower caster levels have all sorts of attached issues.
If you don't see it as broken allow it in your campaign. We are all fine with that.
Plus I do that in my campaign, too.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
When your Intelligence rises due to magic items, you gain all the benefits of that, including skill points after wearing the item 24 hours. If the Headband of Intellect +2, +4, and +6 grant additional skill points, then that means they are exceptionally nice because per RAW you already gain skill points for having your Intelligence increased by such effects.
I see a fat CL 8
I was mistaking it for being the same as the Amulet of Natural Armor and Ring of Protection, which read like this: "creator's caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus".
However, the core magic item rules state that you can create magic items at lower caster levels, as long as the caster level of the item does not fall below the minimum caster level needed for any required spells. Which means that the minimum level to craft any +ability score item is, in fact, 3rd (the lowest caster level that you can cast the spells at). EDIT: It's also the lowest level that you can grab Craft Wondrous Item.
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
It does mean the item is easier to shut down with dispel magic, but I'm willing to live with that until I can upgrade the caster level at a later point.
Also, if you want to prove it's not the rules, feel free to cite where it says it isn't the rules. Until then, I shall be ignoring your protests; because I'm going by the core rules in the core book that describes all magic item creation; including the creation of the existing sample magic items listed in the book already. You are going to need to do better.
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@Alienfreak
so would you rather carry a book that is twice as thick and accomodates all the combinations on that chart?
or would you rather deal with the chart?
i would rather have the latter, it saves page spaces, reduces book weight. and not all the items are bad. an odd numbered stat booster or an 5 charges per day heal item aren't too broken. another part of the chart completely invalidates the ring of continuous true strike or bracers of continuous mage armor. most continuous spells are going to be buffs. and lower caster levels have all sorts of attached issues.
If you don't see it as broken allow it in your campaign. We are all fine with that.
Plus I do that in my campaign, too.
the statistical bonus charts supersede the spell effect charts. the spell effects i leave restricted to things you can't evaluate with numbers. like death ward, protection from evil, freedom of movement, or abundant ammunition.
the statistical bonus charts supersede the spell effect charts. the spell effects i leave restricted to things you can't evaluate with numbers. like death ward, protection from evil, freedom of movement, or abundant ammunition.@Alienfreak
so would you rather carry a book that is twice as thick and accomodates all the combinations on that chart?
or would you rather deal with the chart?
i would rather have the latter, it saves page spaces, reduces book weight. and not all the items are bad. an odd numbered stat booster or an 5 charges per day heal item aren't too broken. another part of the chart completely invalidates the ring of continuous true strike or bracers of continuous mage armor. most continuous spells are going to be buffs. and lower caster levels have all sorts of attached issues.
If you don't see it as broken allow it in your campaign. We are all fine with that.
Plus I do that in my campaign, too.
They do? In your campaign? Nice to know!
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.When your Intelligence rises due to magic items, you gain all the benefits of that, including skill points after wearing the item 24 hours. If the Headband of Intellect +2, +4, and +6 grant additional skill points, then that means they are exceptionally nice because per RAW you already gain skill points for having your Intelligence increased by such effects.
I see a fat CL 8I was mistaking it for being the same as the Amulet of Natural Armor and Ring of Protection, which read like this: "creator's caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus".
However, the core magic item rules state that you can create magic items at lower caster levels, as long as the caster level of the item does not fall below the minimum caster level needed for any required spells. Which means that the minimum level to craft any +ability score item is, in fact, 3rd (the lowest caster level that you can cast the spells at). EDIT: It's also the lowest level that you can grab Craft Wondrous Item.
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.It does mean the item is easier to shut down with dispel magic, but I'm willing to live with that until I can upgrade the caster level at a later point.
Also, if you want to prove it's not the rules, feel free to cite where it says it isn't the rules. Until then, I shall be ignoring your protests; because I'm going by the core rules in the core book...
1. It doesn't give the skill bonus twice.
You are just wrecking the Magic Item System by allowing someone to get a +1 item so he gets onto the next flat bonus which would give him more skillpoints and then you don't get a skillbonus from the item because it has no +2 yet.How smart of you.
If you stick to the rules you can only craft +2/+4/+6 and each of their skill bonuses is covered.
Use the forum search function if you need more clarification on that matter
2. The CL is still a prerequisite which you do not meet. +5 on the DC. And +5 for not having the right spell on your list.
*stuff*
Back it up or shut it up.
You tried to say that the Intelligence increase was based on the magic item, not your increasing Intelligence. I proved you wrong, and you jumped back saying I was trying to abuse the item creation rules to get more skill points twice.
*burns an effigy resembling a humanoid*
Not going to fly. Also, the caster level of the item is set by the creator. If you can't meet the minimum caster level, then you are going to suffer the problem. The minimum caster level, by the rules, is 3rd for the item I was making.
However, you are correct. Per RAW, headbands do in fact grant skill points beyond the ones you gain from increasing your Intelligence. I had never noticed this before. This might have been an oversight, but yes, RAW, if you don a +6 Headband of Intellect, you do in fact gain 3 skill points per HD due to increased Intelligence after 24 hours, and you do get 3 skills at 1 rank / HD for the headband.
Interesting catch. Very interesting. And very much RAW. Maybe not RAI, but hey, them's the rules. :P
EDIT: Interestingly, I have backed everything I have said with quotes from the core rules. You have backed nothing with quotes from the core rules or any rules at all. I think I'm done here for now. Lumiere seems to be doing a good job of shooting down this nonsense anyway.
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@Alienfreak
as a DM, i can't get the middle ground, either i have too many TPKs, or everything is a cakewalk with some damage dealt. and the groups i have just won't give me a chance. and it hurts my confidence as a DM. i try to be accomodating and generous, but it goes overboard. or i end up accidentally coming across as a sadistic DM.
*stuff*Back it up or shut it up.
You tried to say that the Intelligence increase was based on the magic item, not your increasing Intelligence. I proved you wrong, and you jumped back saying I was trying to abuse the item creation rules to get more skill points twice.
*burns an effigy resembling a humanoid*
Not going to fly. Also, the caster level of the item is set by the creator. If you can't meet the minimum caster level, then you are going to suffer the problem. The minimum caster level, by the rules, is 3rd for the item I was making.
However, you are correct. Per RAW, headbands do in fact grant skill points beyond the ones you gain from increasing your Intelligence. I had never noticed this before. This might have been an oversight, but yes, RAW, if you don a +6 Headband of Intellect, you do in fact gain 3 skill points per HD due to increased Intelligence after 24 hours, and you do get 3 skills at 1 rank / HD for the headband.
Interesting catch. Very interesting. And very much RAW. Maybe not RAI, but hey, them's the rules. :P
RAW and RAI is that the Headbands of Vast Intelligence are supposed to give their skills as written in the item and not any skills you can choose.
Search the forum if you don't believe me.While or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item , but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
So you can create 2nd level scrolls with CL3 even at level 20. And it even only costs for a 3CL scroll then.
How very suprising is that!?It still does not let you bypass caster level REQUIREMENTS. Because those are fixed numbers.
You are saying that a +5 needs you to be 15th level to create it but you just choose to lower the caster level and then you can create it at 1st level? Thats not how a REQUIREMENT works.
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@Alienfreak
as a DM, i can't get the middle ground, either i have too many TPKs, or everything is a cakewalk with some damage dealt. and the groups i have just won't give me a chance. and it hurts my confidence as a DM. i try to be accomodating and generous, but it goes overboard. or i end up accidentally coming across as a sadistic DM.
I am an accommodating and generous sadistic DM. :P
In D&D terms, I'm seriously Lawful Good. Real strict order of the law sort, but I want the players to be happy, and to succeed, and to ultimately triumph in the face of adversity.
However, when presenting said adversity, I quickly move into Lawful Evil. "If it's legal" is the name of the game there. You will burn, fry, die, get rezzed, end up poisoned, drained, thrown off buildings, swallowed, mobbed by goblins with fire, blasted with wands, deal with giant oversized orcs swinging reach weapons, fall into pits of black pudding and stone golems, find yourself in a spider infested swamp full of hard to see webbing that is spun between trees, across the ground, with leeches and carnivorous fish in the watery areas. You will be swimming along and that shark will initiate a grapple during the surprise-round charge, and he will grapple->move faster than your friends can save your butt. Enemies do use teamwork, and they won't play fair, and the traps will likely be cruel and unusual. You will face multiple shadows, and those vampires will hunt for you while you're sleeping, and that evil necromancer did order a flock of plague-zombie bats to follow you and infect townsfolk but not fight you (essentially cursing every town you come across with zombie-herpes). You will end up in a dungeon controlled by small humanoids who have weight-triggered traps so that they can run across them without worry but the entire freaking world seems to want to kill your medium sized kiester.
You will cry, and you will shout, and you will curse the name of the bad guy and the GM forever, and then you will be back next week or tomorrow to do it all over again. :P
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@Alienfreak
as a DM, i can't get the middle ground, either i have too many TPKs, or everything is a cakewalk with some damage dealt. and the groups i have just won't give me a chance. and it hurts my confidence as a DM. i try to be accomodating and generous, but it goes overboard. or i end up accidentally coming across as a sadistic DM.
I am an accommodating and generous sadistic DM. :P
In D&D terms, I'm seriously Lawful Good. Real strict order of the law sort, but I want the players to be happy, and to succeed, and to ultimately triumph in the face of adversity.
However, when presenting said adversity, I quickly move into Lawful Evil. "If it's legal" is the name of the game there. You will burn, fry, die, get rezzed, end up poisoned, drained, thrown off buildings, swallowed, mobbed by goblins with fire, blasted with wands, deal with giant oversized orcs swinging reach weapons, fall into pits of black pudding and stone golems, find yourself in a spider infested swamp full of hard to see webbing that is spun between trees, across the ground, with leeches and carnivorous fish in the watery areas. You will be swimming along and that shark will initiate a grapple during the surprise-round charge, and he will grapple->move faster than your friends can save your butt. Enemies do use teamwork, and they won't play fair, and the traps will likely be cruel and unusual. You will face multiple shadows, and those vampires will hunt for you while you're sleeping, and that evil necromancer did order a flock of plague-zombie bats to follow you and infect townsfolk but not fight you (essentially cursing every town you come across with zombie-herpes). You will end up in a dungeon controlled by small humanoids who have weight-triggered traps so that they can run across them without worry but the entire freaking world seems to want to kill your medium sized kiester.
You will cry, and you will shout, and you will curse the name of the bad guy and the GM forever, and then you will be...
sounds like the style i try to go for. but it's fairly hard when Weekly William won't give me a chance to try because he has control issues.
While or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item , but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
The minimum caster level required to create a magic item is the minimum level needed to cast the spell required by that magic item. The spell required for a headband of intellect is Fox's Cunning, which requires 3rd level. That is the required level. So the item you are Crafting may have a CL 3rd instead of 8th. If so, then the item must adhere to that standard (weaker aura, lower saving throws, easier to dispel, etc).
So in this case, the item I am creating is:
X of Intellect +1
Aura faint transmutation, CL 3rd
=======================================
Blah blah blah
=======================================
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item; cat's grace
While or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item , but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.The minimum caster level required to create a magic item is the minimum level needed to cast the spell required by that magic item. The spell required for a headband of intellect is Fox's Cunning, which requires 3rd level. That is the required level. So the item you are Crafting may have a CL 3rd instead of 8th. If so, then the item must adhere to that standard (weaker aura, lower saving throws, easier to dispel, etc).
So in this case, the item I am creating is:
X of Intellect +1
Aura faint transmutation, CL 3rd
=======================================
Blah blah blah
=======================================
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item; cat's grace
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
And you still can't create a +1 headband.
And you still can't create a +1 headband.
And you still haven't actually cited the rules saying I can't. I've cited the rules saying I can. So far, I win.
Oh no, Imoen! *quickly evades Gibberling mobs*
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@Nicos - Nicos, ray of enfeeblement spam is useless against arcane spellcasters unless they are melee focused. It cannot reduce your strength to less than 1; so worst case scenario, you are probably giving them a heavy load, which has 0% effect on their ability to contribute or cast spells. You would be better to attempt enervate spam all the same.Well yes you are right, so let change the situation, firts 9 first level wizards cast ray of enflebement then a fifth level wizard cast ray of exhaustion.
Now the Pc wizard/sorcerer is screw.
Particularly when you have limited slots for these 42K items.
And once again, the goalposts drift away to a new location to better fit your narrative...
@Nicos - Nicos, ray of enfeeblement spam is useless against arcane spellcasters unless they are melee focused. It cannot reduce your strength to less than 1; so worst case scenario, you are probably giving them a heavy load, which has 0% effect on their ability to contribute or cast spells. You would be better to attempt enervate spam all the same.Well yes you are right, so let change the situation, firts 9 first level wizards cast ray of enflebement then a fifth level wizard cast ray of exhaustion.
Now the Pc wizard/sorcerer is screw.
Particularly when you have limited slots for these 42K items.
And once again, the goalposts drift away to a new location to better fit your narrative...
Slot limitation is indeed a hugely limiting factor when gearing up with magic goodies. It's prohibitively expensive to pay 1.5 the cost for stuff by having to combine it with something else. :o
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So in this case, the item I am creating is:X of Intellect +1
Aura faint transmutation, CL 3rd
=======================================
Blah blah blah
=======================================
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item; cat's grace
In Ashiel land, the Dev's made all the ability bonus items divisible by 2 completely by accident. They meant for the +1 items to be available in the game, the just forgot to do it.
Any GM who says otherwise is cruel.
I love how the discussion has gone from comparing a ranger and a fighter with basic equipment to you trying to validate magic items not in the book as part of standard equipment.
And you still can't create a +1 headband.And you still haven't actually cited the rules saying I can't. I've cited the rules saying I can. So far, I win.
Oh no, Imoen! *quickly evades Gibberling mobs*
GUIDELINES
ESTIMATING MAGIC ITEM GOLD PRICE VALUES
TEXT CITING THAT THOSE ARE ONLY APPROXIMATIONS
TABLE OF STRONG BROKENATION
@ciretose:
Because it is a major element in his argumentation why the Ranger is so superior. Because he can take one feet and then double his character wealth and create items that are not even in the book.
This is ignoring two things:
1. The fighter can as well get these items from his party cleric/wizard/whatever
2. He cannot use custom made items anyway
And maybe 3:
The ranger is really bad at creating magic items:
- Little Int Score
- Small Spell List with late acces
- Bad Caster Level
- Needs a lot of combat feats
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A +1 Headband isn't going to do you any good anyway.
A headband of vast intelligence has one
skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants.
One skill per +2 bonus it grants. Right from the core rulebook.
PS: A +1 Headband would be a homebrew game. While there is no right or wrong way to homebrew, you can't form a legitimate argument out of it so homebrew needs to be left out of the discussion.