"Squeeze" Attack Question


Advice

Sovereign Court

Greetings Pathfinders,

In last week's game, a number of Fire Trolls from PAIZO's Dragon Compendium attacked 2 characters who were split from the rest of the party. Space 10, Reach 10.

As the GM I had trouble with the last Fire Troll being able to move and reach the party due to space constraints.

Question: Would it have been plausable for a troll to take 20 feet of movement, and then use its last 10 to SQUEEZE into the last square and use 1 attack against a PC?

Or, is using "squeeze" a faux pas when it comes to using monsters to their fullest against the adventuring party?

So the question is two-fold, could it be done, and should it be done? I'm a big believer in both technical RAW and gaming norms as well.


Yes, it's allowed to squeeze a 10'x10' creature into a 10'x5' space and fight while squozen. The penalties are big enough to discourage it as a regular maneuver, but in some cases it's better than not being able to fight at all.

Sovereign Court

Here is one more question, that might clear up a misconception (hopefully)...

Last week the other half of the party was moving single-file through a narrow shute.

P193 CRB says, "A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square."

Does this mean:
a) the character cannot temporarily squeeze into a friendly square to reach an enemy and attack? or
b) the character CAN do this, but then must place thier mini in an unoccupied square when done.

The way we've played is, "well, you can't do that, so you cannot attack." BUT, this seems very odd for the following reasons:
1. PCs do not count friendly squares against them while moving (generally). Example, 5'cooridore and fighter moves through 2 pcs to get ahead of the party. No penalties to movement.
2. PCs are allowed to squeeze if necessary into an area that is at least half their space. It then follows that PCs should be able to squeeze into a 5' square occupied by a friendly PC, make an attack (but this never happens because most have interpreted that this is simply "not allowed" by the RAW.

Any guidance, or even new thinking on this old rule is welcomed!

Sovereign Court

hogarth wrote:
Yes, it's allowed to squeeze a 10'x10' creature into a 10'x5' space and fight while squozen. The penalties are big enough to discourage it as a regular maneuver, but in some cases it's better than not being able to fight at all.

So, Hogarth, the Fire Troll mini would just be "doubled up" as if standing on part of the others' base. This would end its movement "occupying another creatures square." I'm totally cool with this, as it makes perfect sense, however, I'm wondering why this cannot also remain true for PCs (and then for game mechanic reasons, move them back to an adjacent unoccupied square when finished making the attack.)

Example: Human PC Fighter moves 20 feet, squeezes for 1 square (costing him his full move action. He then attacks the adjacent foe (reach is 5). The "foot" he is now standing on is a friendly PC, so his mini is then moved to an adjacent unoccupied square after his 1 attack is complete. Would this follow RAW? (We never do this, but I'm not clear as to whether its because its forbidden or if its just the -4/-4 atk/ac penalty that discourages it.

Thanks in advance for further clarity.
Pax

Sovereign Court

Just to be clear... these are scenarios involving the last space of squeeze movement as the max movement for the creature or PC that is moving. Example, the last 10 feet of move spent on sqeezing 1 square.


I believe you're incorrect on the last count.

If the fire troll wants to squeeze, thats fine, but if he would end movement in an occupied square (his friends) its an illegal move. He can squeeze PAST then attack, or be behind and attack with reach, but he cannot end movement in his friends square and attack

Sovereign Court

thanks Weables. I think you're right, and we've always played this way. But I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense to allow those things...

The RAW implies that:
> A powerful human fighter of any level cannot squeeze 5 feet next to an ally to get a melee attack in, because even though he has 30 feet of movement and only 20 (10 in and 10 out) would be used up, the rules prohit him moving attacking then moving again. So 10 feet of movement is lost, and the scnenario suffers as we say the 13the level fighter cannot squeeze and attack, even though we normally don't even count "friendly" squares as movement.

I hope I was able to be clear about the issue. Does this make sense to anyone?


What you just stated is correct. The fighter can't make an attack either. Unless he has spring attack, I think. I've never used it, but i think that would qualify

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