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As above?
If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.
There is more about how you can cut rops of bridge while people are on it, or spring traps, release dogs, yatta yatta. I wouldnt think Slumber Hex or Evil eye hex breaks invis but seeing how other people view it.
It breaks it. You're directly putting an effect on another person that requires a saving throw.
Check the wording of Invisibility,
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.
Reading it, it is possible to keep Invisibility active, with the a hex used,
but it'll depend on if the GM says hexes count as spells.And slumber is not in my opinion a real attack spell, like fireball.
So by that reading, Azure, you'd be perfectly fine with say, anything with Fireball as a SU ability using it and staying invisible? SU abilities aren't spells, after all.
That's exactly right. Supernatural abilities are not spells.
So by that reading, Azure, you'd be perfectly fine with say, anything with Fireball as a SU ability using it and staying invisible? SU abilities aren't spells, after all.
Spells include spell-like abilities, as spell-like abilities are considered spells due to various interactions of the rules.
For the most part, yes, a Hex could count as a spell-like ability thus break it. But a GM could decide that a non-damaging hex is not a spell-like ability.
Woah, woah. Hexes are NOT spell-like abilities. This is explicit.
Note that the invisibility spells says that spells targeting an opponent or that has an area of effect with an opponent in it are "included", it doesn't say any place in the spell that attacks based upon supernatural abilities are "excluded".
If a sleep spell will break the invisibility a supernatural ability that does the same thing will as well.
And I think that most people would agree that a fireball is an 'attack' whether it is created by spell, supernatural ability, or tossing a giant keg of alchemist fire at your opponent (although should that keg be dangling above the battlefield by a rope, which you cut, you would be in the clear).
Buri is right, All the hexes are SU, thus not spells and therefore you will stay invisible.
but this part limits it a bit
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature
so it would be limited to no damage spells against foes or no targeting of foes at all.
It's fine to say "this spell ends if the subject attacks any creature," but, hexes are not spell-like even if they mimic the function of a spell.
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I did not claim that they were, my point is that an attack is an attack whether it comes from spell, supernatural ability, or any other source. claiming that 'because invisibility specifically calls out spells, but makes no mention of supernatural abilities that attacks based on supernatural abilities does not break invisibility' is simply rules lawyering to try to gain an advantage.
Buri, your generalisation is wrong. Some hexes are spell-like abilities, like Swamp Hag (Sp), or Poison Steep (Sp). Slumber however is supernatural.
Nonetheless, invisibility only gives an example, it says nothing specific about supernatural abilities, however in my opinion it should be comparable, if an effect is mirrored as extraordinary or supernatural, and it would break if invisibility if it was a spell, then it does break invisibility.
As sleep spell is supposed to break invisibility, so is every sleep ability that includes in its area or targets a foe.
There are corner cases, but this doesn't look like one to me. If this were american court, it would probably have written "includes but is not limited to", but then again starbucks has to write on his coffee that it's hot.
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.
Using Slumber would break the invisibility since you target a foe.
Otherwise it gets silly. A number of Witch Hex's cause status effects and one even kills a person.
I did not claim that they were, my point is that an attack is an attack whether it comes from spell, supernatural ability, or any other source. claiming that 'because invisibility specifically calls out spells, but makes no mention of supernatural abilities that attacks based on supernatural abilities does not break invisibility' is simply rules lawyering to try to gain an advantage.
Is it an attack??
Is it an attack when I heal your character via a hex? Is it an attack when I charm a person with a hex? Is it an attack when I use slumber? Is it an attack when I use brew potion?
The mere act of using a hex on another character is not an attack. You can say anything causes HP damage is an attack. That would be fair. However, it's a stretch to say something that simply puts a creature to sleep is an attack.
Any action that is intentionally and directly detrimental to the target creature is an attack, to claim otherwise is nonsensical.
Buri, your generalisation is wrong. Some hexes are spell-like abilities, like Swamp Hag (Sp), or Poison Steep (Sp). Slumber however is supernatural.
You're right.
Any action that is intentionally and directly detrimental to the target creature is an attack, to claim otherwise is idiocy.
What is detrimental? I've used slumber to end combat peacefully. Was it detrimental then? Would it be detrimental to use it on someone so they can rest if they refuse to rest and are fatigued or exhausted? The mere act of putting someone to sleep is not detrimental and that's all that slumber does. Nightmare, however, is clearly hostile.
Buri by that same logic then is it okay to use;
Agony (Su): With a quick incantation, a witch can place this hex on one creature within 60 feet, causing them to suffer intense pain. The target is nauseated for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level. A Fortitude save negates this effect. If the saving throw is failed, the target can attempt a new save each round to end the effect. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
or Power Word Kill
You utter a single word of power that instantly kills one creature of your choice, whether the creature can hear the word or not. Any creature that currently has 101 or more hit points is unaffected by power word kill.
or Color Spray
A vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand, causing creatures to become stunned, perhaps also blinded, and possibly knocking them unconscious. Each creature within the cone is affected according to its HD.
2 HD or less: The creature is unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, and then stunned for 1 round. (Only living creatures are knocked unconscious.)
3 or 4 HD: The creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round.
5 or more HD: The creature is stunned for 1 round.
Sightless creatures are not affected by color spray.
All without breaking Invisibility. There are plenty of things that don't cause damage to HP that are an attack.
If you are putting people to sleep against their will then it is clearly an attack.
April 1st is that way --->
Buri by that same logic then is it okay to use;
Agony (Su): With a quick incantation, a witch can place this hex on one creature within 60 feet, causing them to suffer intense pain. The target is nauseated for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level. A Fortitude save negates this effect. If the saving throw is failed, the target can attempt a new save each round to end the effect. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
or Power Word Kill
You utter a single word of power that instantly kills one creature of your choice, whether the creature can hear the word or not. Any creature that currently has 101 or more hit points is unaffected by power word kill.or Color Spray
A vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand, causing creatures to become stunned, perhaps also blinded, and possibly knocking them unconscious. Each creature within the cone is affected according to its HD.2 HD or less: The creature is unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, and then stunned for 1 round. (Only living creatures are knocked unconscious.)
3 or 4 HD: The creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round.
5 or more HD: The creature is stunned for 1 round.
Sightless creatures are not affected by color spray.
All without breaking Invisibility. There are plenty of things that don't cause damage to HP that are an attack.
Just saying, man. If Slumber had an alignment, it would be true neutral. All those would bend somewhere evil.
yes, as written healing a foe breaks invisibility, doesn't make much sense. The GM is within his right to change it a bit, and have his own definition of attacks.
Some corner cases: creating or summoning a big rock over an ennemy that falls down, or make the floor under him lava.
Or putting poison in the sleeping guards ear.
Anyhow it's hard for a witch to get invisibility anyhow, only deceptions offers it, I think.
Buri, your generalisation is wrong. Some hexes are spell-like abilities, like Swamp Hag (Sp), or Poison Steep (Sp). Slumber however is supernatural.You're right.
Any action that is intentionally and directly detrimental to the target creature is an attack, to claim otherwise is idiocy.What is detrimental? I've used slumber to end combat peacefully. Was it detrimental then? Would it be detrimental to use it on someone so they can rest if they refuse to rest and are fatigued or exhausted? The mere act of putting someone to sleep is not detrimental and that's all that slumber does. Nightmare, however, is clearly hostile.
I've used Power Word Stun to end combat "peacefully", I've also used Color Sprat and a sap.
If a doctor uses a scalpel to perform surgery (cut flesh), it's not an attack, if he uses it to incapacitate a foe (by cutting flesh) it's an attack. How about administering anesthetic to a patient in a hospital versus a woman in a dark alley?
The difference is context, and quite apparent, I think.
troll much
troll much
Only a little bit. :(
