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Arguing over a Sun Blade.


Advice

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Blue Star wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Blue Star wrote:
I'm mature enough to admit I need help, asking the largest pool of knowledge, ideas, and personalities I know of is simply tapping the source of the best/most varied responses I can get.
And it was a good idea. Sure, just asking the net and not seeking to solve this by yourself by talking with all parties involved would not really help you, but that doesn't mean you can't use the internet at all.
My question is, how does this help him solve the problem in his group?
You are the one who took this off the rails, which means you are the one not helping me, KaeYoss has given me some good advice, you have not.

Hi Blue!

First time poster. I'm trying to catch both sides of the argument, so bear with me, but here is my personal opinion:

1) Her reasons for wanting the sword are somewhat valid in RP terms - I think a sunblade would be a precious thing to a dedicated cleric of a sun god. However, the fact that she cannot wield the weapon and has no skill in it makes it seem a little silly to me that she wants to hoard it when little use can be gotten from it. That seems stubborn, irrational, and doesn't make sense to me RP-wise either. A necromancer may be fascinated by sword made of bone, but to demand to wield it? kinda silly. A staff of bone is a different matter...

2) It seems like this situation has progressed beyond any reasonable discourse at the game table. So it's up to you to either make a decision and stick to it, or leave the game.

3) In-character, your ninjasssassin would probably recognize the cleric's complete inability to wield the sunblade effectively. What is your ninja's alignment? If I were a good or maybe even neutral character, I might say, 'You dishonor your god by handling a divine gift as a green child would. When you can wield a sword, and do justice to your god by doing so, then I will relinquish it. At the moment you risk cutting yourself with your own blade, the way you handle such a weapon." In other words, until she at least takes a feat so that she can wield the weapon, there is no reason for her to have it. If my character was evil, well...

4) If she invests the feat, I would probably give her the sword, knowing that it's A) down the road a level or two, and B) that it would give me some time to talk to the DM and push for an alternative weapon to come down the pike that my two-weapon assassin will be able to wield without stepping on her toes. The DM may not have any responsibility to end discord at the table (although I think that he does), but if you present a rational method for both of you to (eventually) clear this impasse and the DM can assist in doing so, he'd be a little knuckleheaded not to.

Just my two-cents.

Cheers.


Just throw the dumb thing down a pit. Problem solved.

Sad I failed my Will save and had to make a post on this now ridiculous thread.

At this point I think as a DM I would have a baddie cast dispel magic on it, making it a regular weapon for d4 turns and have a bunch of cronies shatter it.


@Moocrys: 1)You've missed an important part of this: she's not a cleric, she's an oracle, a class that really has no business being in combat.

2)You have a very good point with this.

3)I'm neutral good, which is why I think the "give her the sword, let her get killed" idea is terrible. I don't want to kill her either, but her refusing to heal me puts us at an impasse, and I hate it.

4)Technically it's not, she wasn't paying attention when we made level 11, so she didn't buy a feat, she's willing to buy it now, but that's just her being irrational. I don't want to let her get away with childish, irrational, and potentially suicidal behavior. The GM largely doesn't care how we go about things, he's not going to put in loot unless he thinks it's a good time to drop a reward.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Blue Star wrote:
@Dennis: The problem I asked to be solved wasn't "Should I give it to her" the problem I asked to be solved was "How do I end this argument, while making sure I don't end the campaign simultaneously." Leaving it to chance can very well end the campaign the moment we step into combat again.

No, that is not the problem you presented in the top post. You sort of mutated it into that later after several people pointed out giving the oracle the sword is a possible solution.

Edit: Snipped out the assumed motivation for doing so.


Dennis Baker wrote:
Blue Star wrote:
@Dennis: The problem I asked to be solved wasn't "Should I give it to her" the problem I asked to be solved was "How do I end this argument, while making sure I don't end the campaign simultaneously." Leaving it to chance can very well end the campaign the moment we step into combat again.

No, that is not the problem you presented in the top post. You sort of mutated it into that later to justify why the only reasonable solution is your character must have the sword in the end.

She's constantly bringing up that she wants the sword, how do I convince her that it's in the best available hands? To the point she's threatened to stop healing me. I think giving her the sword will end in a pc death or several pc deaths, which I want no part of. How do I get her to understand this?

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Blue Star wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
Blue Star wrote:
@Dennis: The problem I asked to be solved wasn't "Should I give it to her" the problem I asked to be solved was "How do I end this argument, while making sure I don't end the campaign simultaneously." Leaving it to chance can very well end the campaign the moment we step into combat again.

No, that is not the problem you presented in the top post. You sort of mutated it into that later to justify why the only reasonable solution is your character must have the sword in the end.

She's constantly bringing up that she wants the sword, how do I convince her that it's in the best available hands? To the point she's threatened to stop healing me. I think giving her the sword will end in a pc death or several pc deaths, which I want no part of. How do I get her to understand this?

Ask her for a compromise solution that allows you to keep the sword and agree to that.

No one here is going to be able to convince her for you and nothing anyone here says is going to give you a magic bullet to fix the problem.

Edit: I need to stop editing my posts in active threads. People reply too quickly.


Dennis Baker wrote:
Ask her for a compromise solution that allows you to keep the sword and agree to that.

Telling her she can have it when we are out of undead bad guys wasn't enough, how would that solve this dilemma? She wants it 3 MONTHS AGO and no later than that. Just because she worships a sun god. I am thinking about telling her I worship Iomedae, another sun god, therefore it's a holy relic of my god as well.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Blue Star wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
Ask her for a compromise solution that allows you to keep the sword and agree to that.
Telling her she can have it when we are out of undead bad guys wasn't enough, how would that solve this dilemma?

"You can have this neat toy as son as it's worthless to me."

Is not much of a compromise, nor is it asking her for a compromise. See if she has some other suggestions for an actual compromise.


Dennis Baker wrote:
Blue Star wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
Ask her for a compromise solution that allows you to keep the sword and agree to that.
Telling her she can have it when we are out of undead bad guys wasn't enough, how would that solve this dilemma?

"You can have this neat toy as son as it's worthless to me."

Is not much of a compromise, nor is it asking her for a compromise. See if she has some other suggestions for an actual compromise.

I don't think she will, last time she was pissy over items we were in Smuggler's Shiv, and she was not giving my character it's gear back. Her history with items leads me to believe she will treat it like Gollum did the One Ring. Possibly even talking to it when she thinks no one is looking. Plus, she's going to drop it and lose it eventually, then it's a completely wasted item.

Silver Crusade

So the following options are seemingly off the table: Blue gives up the sword. The oracle shuts up about the sword.

I don't have enough info about the DM to really make a call about him being off the table for a solution but it does seem like he is not helping the situation.

A small set of solutions present themselves:

1) Game ends
2) DM intercession which can offer a wide variety of solutions.

I assume that the reason you guys keep moving forward in the dungeon is due to the geas. The DM seems to be enforcing his vision of realism and without getting into the faults of his game style has your characters in a situation where there is no going back.

I fall back on my suggestion that you get the DM to create a solution to keep his game going. The DM has the most flexibility to create a solution that will make all parties happy. A simple solution could be the angel appearing and saying that you should keep the sword and that it will turn to dross if anyone else wields it. If that does not shut her up then nothing will.

If you have done this and he refused to intercede at all (I think you said something to that effect) then how can the board help you?

You refuse to give up the sword, she won't shut up about it. The DM won't help.


Blue Star wrote:
She's constantly bringing up that she wants the sword, how do I convince her that it's in the best available hands? To the point she's threatened to stop healing me. I think giving her the sword will end in a pc death or several pc deaths, which I want no part of. How do I get her to understand this?

You can't. It's not possible for you to end this argument by any method other than giving her the sword. If she was willing to give in, she already would have. As with every argument you will get into, you have no control over the other person, only control over you.

So to that end, you really have three and only three options:

A) Continue the campaign and keep the sword, and accept that the argument is only going to get worse as time goes on. Since it will get worse, I'd say the risk of a TPK just from party distrust is greater with this option than the alternative.

B) Continue the campaign and give her the sword, ending the argument.

C) Don't continue the campaign.

There is no other option. You can't control her actions and it's pointless to try. The only thing you can do that will end the argument is to give her the sword.

That said, I think it's perfectly acceptable to make sure she reaches some minimum level of proficiency before giving her the sword. That's a compromise position that both ensures the sword gets used reasonably well, and ensures party unity.


Say in character, "I have decided you can have the sword over my dead body, literally." Then have your character commit seppuku using the weapon and as your character dies he says, "There, I hope you are happy."

Then pack up your books and bid everyone a good time gaming, and then go home.

Personally, I don't think either of you need to be gaming, you both seem pretty self-centered.


@Rakinsect: I disagree, there is always a way, I believe that in the deepest depths of my soul, it's a philosophy that I have followed my entire life. There is always a way, even if I have to make it with my own two hands.

@pres man:I'm not doing that, it's immature.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Rankinsect wrote:
You can't. It's not possible for you to end this argument by any method other than giving her the sword. If she was willing to give in, she already would have. As with every argument you will get into, you have no control over the other person, only control over you.

I disagree.

If the two would agree to allow random chance, a third party, or the rest of the group to intercede and make the decision then she would have no choice but to STFU. But Blue isn't willing risk losing the item which IMO makes him at least part of the problem.


You say it is in the best hands already. Ok, let me ask you this, and answer honestly. How often is your character, in the middle of a fight, going to use the ability:

PRD wrote:
The blade also has a special sunlight power. Once per day, the wielder can swing the blade vigorously above his head while speaking a command word. The sun blade then sheds a bright yellow radiance that acts like bright light and affects creatures susceptible to light as if it were natural sunlight. The radiance begins shining in a 10-foot radius around the sword wielder and extends outward at 5 feet per round for 10 rounds thereafter, to create a globe of light with a 60-foot radius. When the wielder stops swinging, the radiance fades to a dim glow that persists for another minute before disappearing entirely.

If your honest answer is "never", maybe it's not.

Silver Crusade

karkon wrote:
With 30+ years of gaming under my belt
KaeYoss wrote:
You still don't know everything. It's entirely possible that you just have 30 years experience of crappy roleplaying.

30 years of crappy role playing experience would be especially relevant here as that is exactly what is going on with Blue and his group,

As it is I would put about 10 of it as crappy. Early stupid kid stuff, finding new groups, crazy people joining a group etc. I have seen plenty of stupid loot fights over the course of that time and they rarely end well if the parties involved won't budge. The ones that did end well were usually the result of DM intervention.

I saw the same stupid threats to kill characters and stop healing. Some people carried out those threats which caused the other guy to make a new character than invariably had it in for the killer. Those reasons were totally in character they would claim as everyone rolled their eyes. That lead to more fights and eventual group disintegration.

Most of the last 20ish years has been great with steady long term groups, interesting games, and good friends.


Dennis Baker wrote:
Rankinsect wrote:
You can't. It's not possible for you to end this argument by any method other than giving her the sword. If she was willing to give in, she already would have. As with every argument you will get into, you have no control over the other person, only control over you.

I disagree.

If the two would agree to allow random chance, a third party, or the rest of the group to intercede and make the decision then she would have no choice but to STFU. But Blue isn't willing risk losing the item which IMO makes him at least part of the problem.

I am part of the problem to be sure, I have a long-lived character, and I'd like them to stay that way.

@Pres Man:When there's a creature vulnerable to it, I would use it, the moment it was tactically sound. We had a vampire we were fighting, had we not been right next to a building, where he could get away from it, I would have gleefully kicked it up, but we were on a 10 foot wide balcony at the time, there was a thick curtain in the doorway, meaning all he would have to do is step through it, and suddenly I've lost my chance to get rid of him. Even if I'd stood in the door way, there was another door in the next room, meaning that even staggered, he could get away.

Had we just been in the courtyard, I'd have immediately started it up, sadly we weren't.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Blue Star wrote:
@Rakinsect: I disagree, there is always a way, I believe that in the deepest depths of my soul, it's a philosophy that I have followed my entire life. There is always a way, even if I have to make it with my own two hands.

There's certainly a way to end the argument, and certainly a way to keep the sword, but there's no way to do both. Not every problem has a perfect solution - you have to choose what is more important to you, party unity or your personal damage, and live with the consequences of that choice. Both paths have pros and cons; your point of view is certainly not wrong. Hers is not necessarily wrong either.

Especially if this has been going on for MONTHS, you're at an impasse. By trying to hold out for a perfect solution that, months later, you haven't found, you're ignoring less perfect solutions that are right in front of your eyes. She's deeply emotionally invested in this argument by now, and you're not going to sway her. She needs to be given a concession to pay off the emotional investment she's made, and nothing short of that will end it.

Your best bet at this point is to make sure the cost of that concession is as small as possible - and that would be why helping her become a better combat character would be the best way to go. Really, an oracle is no worse than a cleric in front-line combat, and can in fact be better (though her character choices preclude that). Try to help build her up and you may be pleasantly surprised.

I know you think her best role is a healbot, but what does SHE think her best role is? Nobody will ever be happy in a role they hate doing, and nobody will play their best in a role they aren't happy with. Even if the healbot is the clearly better choice from a game mechanics point of view, if she's not happy playing that role, it's not going to go well. The trick is to help her find a role she enjoys and also contributes in. What kind of role does she envision herself playing?

If you really want help at dealing with other players, I'd seek it in books, not forums. How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie is a classic and extremely good book on how to deal with people. Though as fair forewarning - his rule #1 about arguments is that you cannot win an argument. He does have great advice about how to extract yourself from an argument, though, and how to win people to your way of thinking without arguing. It's going to require that you work hard to see things from her point of view, though. Until you really understand her, you won't win her to your side.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Rankinsect wrote:
...The Awesome...

Wow, great post.


Blue Star wrote:

The Oracle took the cloak of resistance, I gave her that one because her saves were garbage, and I wanted her to not die. I still need whatever bonuses I can get to my skills and will save.

After reading this something really stuck with me. I don't know if this has been answered or not, but how is loot decided on when the dm gives you multiple treasure at once? Does it go to the first person who calls dibs? The thing that really stood out to me was the "I gave her that one." Are you usually the one who decides what goes where?


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blue Star wrote:
@Moocrys: 1)You've missed an important part of this: she's not a cleric, she's an oracle, a class that really has no business being in combat.

Sorry, but that's BS. Oracle's can be just as much a tank as any 3/4 BAB class. In some cases, better. I'm playing an Oracle of Steel right now, and I'm one of the 3 tanks in the game (the other two being a half-orc Barbarian and a Dwarf Ranger). In the last fight we had, I killed 2 people by myself, and finished off a third, while the ranger killed one and the mage assisted with the one I killed with help.

Individual characters should or shouldn't be in combat, but as a class, an Oracle is as good in combat as a rogue/ninja/bard/monk/cleric. If the oracle shouldn't be in combat then maybe the best solution is to help the player make a more combat oriented change to their character.

I've read the entire thread, and to me, it comes down to this as my perception :

You : I don't want to give up any equipment I have the best use of, even if I only use it 1/3rd or 1/6th of the time, let everyone else suck up my cast offs, and if they can't use them at all, i'll keep my cast offs too. Also, the oracle should be a heal bot and keep to her place as heal bot for my awesomeness so I can keep on using the shinies when I feel like it.

Her : I don't give a crap about mechanics, I have my theme and that's all that's important. The ninja is a stuck up prig and I want the damn sword because it's in theme for me! Now give it to me or I'll pick up my marbles and go home!

In other words, you're both acting like spoiled brats. Personally, if I were the GM, and you two were in my game, I'd kick you both out and tell any other GM I ran into to avoid you both like the plague. You obviously have no concept of how to play as anything other than the star of the team. Anyone who doesn't play the way you think they should obviously is an inferior player and you will do whatever you want, you are the judge of everyone else's characters. She obviously has no care for the mechanics of the game, she's only interested in theme and focuses on minutia. In other words, you two are on the opposite ends of the bell curve as examples of the worst types of players to have in a game. On one end is the min/max pro from dover who must be the best and have the shinest toys (you, in case you missed that point), and on the other end is the roleplay is more important than the rules and to heck with the rules, I'll insist I get my way on RP stuff or else, and anyone who doesn't agree with me is a bad gamer type.

Silver Crusade

omgabear wrote:
Blue Star wrote:

The Oracle took the cloak of resistance, I gave her that one because her saves were garbage, and I wanted her to not die. I still need whatever bonuses I can get to my skills and will save.

After reading this something really stuck with me. I don't know if this has been answered or not, but how is loot decided on when the dm gives you multiple treasure at once? Does it go to the first person who calls dibs? The thing that really stood out to me was the "I gave her that one." Are you usually the one who decides what goes where?

There is a bunch of that going on. Earlier he mentioned giving her +1 armor because he didn't need it anymore. She sounds like the red headed step child.

On a lighter note: Batman!

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

@mdt — I just want to point out that any and all information about the oracle player is second hand and likely at least a little biased. I always hate when people make judgments about others based on incomplete/ biased information.


omgabear wrote:
Blue Star wrote:

The Oracle took the cloak of resistance, I gave her that one because her saves were garbage, and I wanted her to not die. I still need whatever bonuses I can get to my skills and will save.

After reading this something really stuck with me. I don't know if this has been answered or not, but how is loot decided on when the dm gives you multiple treasure at once? Does it go to the first person who calls dibs? The thing that really stood out to me was the "I gave her that one." Are you usually the one who decides what goes where?

When I first heard it was a cloak, I was hoping it would be something cool (the character my character is based on has a really cool cloak, one with a house in it, I was hoping for that), but it was pretty lame, and I asked her if she needed her intelligence stat for anything. She said no, I said my skills run on intelligence, so I'll take the headband, because I get the most use of it, and you can have the cloak, because I don't want you to die or get incapacitated from blowing a save. Not that it's actually helped yet.

Had she been bugging me about that I'd have given it to her by now, but she wants something

@MDT:Yes, but this is an oracle of life, who built completely around healing, so no, she doesn't belong in combat. Had she been an oracle of steel/battle/war/whatever-combat-oriented the entire time, I'd be a bit more willing to hand it over.

I also use the equipment on my list a lot more often than you give me credit. Even when we run into scorpions, the sun blade is still a better off hand weapon than any other we've seen. I don't take items I'm not going to be using constantly.

Let me put this another way: I have a masterwork katana, masterwork wakizashi, a sun blade, and a +3 adamantine katana, which weapons should I use? A lemming would use the mundane weapons, as I am not a lemming, I am using the really powerful magic ones.

One argument over one item does not a terrible player make, unless it's an irrational argument.

Nice name calling by the way, I'm not a min/maxer, a min/maxer wouldn't be a ninja, there are better classes out there, like gunslinger, barbarian, cleric, druid, or wizard.


karkon wrote:


There is a bunch of that going on. Earlier he mentioned giving her +1 armor because he didn't need it anymore. She sounds like the red headed step child.

I am wondering if that is the real issue here. Personally I don't think she should have the sunblade, and I was originally leaning towards the OPs side till he kept talking. If loot isn't being distributed evenly this might not be a problem of RP vs combat effectiveness at all. I am wondering if the Oracle is tired of getting shafted on loot and has just picked the sunblade as their line in the sand because its easy to make a makeshift reason to have it over the "I get everything I want" ninja.

Of course this is all just conjecture without more information or another player's side of the story.

-edit- Is that how you guys always hand out loot Blue Star?


Kill her character and be done with it. Literally, wait until you've camped and pass the GM a piece of paper saying you intend to kill her in her sleep and write down your stealth modifier so he can roll for you.

~The next morning act all surprised and vow to find the culprit.


Iced2k wrote:

Kill her character and be done with it. Literally, wait until you've camped and pass the GM a piece of paper saying you intend to kill her in her sleep and write down your stealth modifier so he can roll for you.

~The next morning act all surprised and vow to find the culprit.

I really want that to be the very last option I take, it's not really in my character to do that, unless really desperate.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dennis Baker wrote:
@mdt — I just want to point out that any and all information about the oracle player is second hand and likely at least a little biased. I always hate when people make judgments about others based on incomplete/ biased information.

Since I based my decision on the information available, I didn't see a reason to put in a caveat, obviously my perception is based on the information from the OP. Based on his statements, that is what I'd do. Honestly, my personal feeling is that we aren't getting nearly the whole story. But, based on the posts he's made, if he's 100% honest in them, then I would kick both of them out of my game.

If we had the Oracle's point of view, I might have a different stance. But given all I have is the OPs views, I can only base my thoughts on those. So for the moment, it's the OP and a theoretical Oracle player who's a whiney shrill spoiled brat. Until I hear her side, my opinion is based on the OP and the theoretical player he described, not him and the real person he described.


mdt wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
@mdt — I just want to point out that any and all information about the oracle player is second hand and likely at least a little biased. I always hate when people make judgments about others based on incomplete/ biased information.

Since I based my decision on the information available, I didn't see a reason to put in a caveat, obviously my perception is based on the information from the OP. Based on his statements, that is what I'd do. Honestly, my personal feeling is that we aren't getting nearly the whole story. But, based on the posts he's made, if he's 100% honest in them, then I would kick both of them out of my game.

If we had the Oracle's point of view, I might have a different stance. But given all I have is the OPs views, I can only base my thoughts on those. So for the moment, it's the OP and a theoretical Oracle player who's a whiney shrill spoiled brat. Until I hear her side, my opinion is based on the OP and the theoretical player he described, not him and the real person he described.

You need to get your eyes checked, I didn't do half the stuff you claim I do.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

@mdt — I kind of figured and I agree. I just have strong feelings about people getting trashed based on flawed or incomplete info... it's a long story.

Silver Crusade

Iced2k wrote:

Kill her character and be done with it. Literally, wait until you've camped and pass the GM a piece of paper saying you intend to kill her in her sleep and write down your stealth modifier so he can roll for you.

~The next morning act all surprised and vow to find the culprit.

Her next character the battle cleric of the sun will also demand the sun sword. That character will also have it in for the ninja for reasons that she assures are totally in character (she hates all ninjas). How does she know he is a ninja? Her character can tell.


karkon wrote:
Iced2k wrote:

Kill her character and be done with it. Literally, wait until you've camped and pass the GM a piece of paper saying you intend to kill her in her sleep and write down your stealth modifier so he can roll for you.

~The next morning act all surprised and vow to find the culprit.

Her next character the battle cleric of the sun will also demand the sun sword. That character will also have it in for the ninja for reasons that she assures are totally in character (she hates all ninjas). How does she know he is a ninja? Her character can tell.

I would put my money on she received a dream from her deity stating that a heretic slew one of his loyal followers with a blessed blade. It is her duty to right this wrong and restore the blade to a worthy owner.

Maybe after a few weeks of them killing each other, the dm will have had enough and step up to the plate like he should have already.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blue Star wrote:


@MDT:Yes, but this is an oracle of life, who built completely around healing, so no, she doesn't belong in combat.

An oracle of life still has 3/4 BAB, d8 hit points, armor proficiency, etc. So it's only that she has mostly healing class abilities. Nothing says she can't do that in the middle of the fight as well, with the proper assistance and equipment. Of course, if she's getting cast offs for equipment, I'm not surprised she can't be effective in combat.

Blue Star wrote:


Had she been an oracle of steel/battle/war/whatever-combat-oriented the entire time, I'd be a bit more willing to hand it over.

I doubt that, based on your comments below.

Blue Star wrote:


I also use the equipment on my list a lot more often than you give me credit. Even when we run into scorpions, the sun blade is still a better off hand weapon than any other we've seen. I don't take items I'm not going to be using constantly.

Let me put this another way: I have a masterwork katana, masterwork wakizashi, a sun blade, and a +3 adamantine katana, which weapons should I use? A lemming would use the mundane weapons, as I am not a lemming, I am using the really powerful magic ones.

Honestly? I'd say you should use the +3 katana and the wakizashi. You're already cranking out major damage, the bonus from the sunblade isn't much when it's used for an offhand weapon. The only time it's outstandingly better than the MW Wakizashi is when you're fighting undead. The thing is, this is a game requiring personal interaction, both in and out of combat. Part of playing with other people is compromise. From your own posts, you don't compromise. You insist on the absolutely best mechanical fit at the expense of interpersonal relationships OOC. That's not a team player. A team player compromises, I've quite often in the past given up an item that is optimal for me, but suboptimal for someone else, because they had less equipment, or they really wanted it for their character's theme, or they just really wanted it for some reason.

Blue Star wrote:


One argument over one item does not a terrible player make, unless it's an irrational argument.

Yep, I agree. I'm basing it off your posts, your way of responding to anyone who doesn't agree with you 100%, and the fact that it has turned into an irrational argument on both sides.

Blue Star wrote:


Nice name calling by the way, I'm not a min/maxer, a min/maxer wouldn't be a ninja, there are better classes out there, like gunslinger, barbarian, cleric, druid, or wizard.

Yes, you are. Based on your posts. You talk about how you must have the most efficient and optimum equipment for your own character. That is, by definition, a min maxer. If you weren't, you wouldn't care about the sunblade vs the MW wakizashi against living opponents, but you do.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dennis Baker wrote:
@mdt — I kind of figured and I agree. I just have strong feelings about people getting trashed based on flawed or incomplete info... it's a long story.

No problem, as I said, I just naturally assume any judgements are based on available information, caveat unneeded. :) Although, I think I did put in 'based on reading the thread' in the original post.


I wonder if the OPer would feel like his character was total crap, if the paladin was still in the party using the sun blade. I mean obviously it is absolutely crucial to his character's ability to be in the least bit effective. Kind of makes you wonder if the paladin's player was "motivated" to leave so that the weapon would get transferred.


pres man wrote:
I wonder if the OPer would feel like his character was total crap, if the paladin was still in the party using the sun blade. I mean obviously it is absolutely crucial to his character's ability to be in the least bit effective. Kind of makes you wonder if the paladin's player was "motivated" to leave so that the weapon would get transferred.

I didn't feel like crap when the paladin was in my party, I doubt I would feel like crap if we were to get another paladin now.

@MDT:Really? +2hit(+4vs evil) 1d10+2(+4 vs evil, x2 vs evil outsiders and undead) vs +1 hit 1d6 isn't an outstanding difference? What are you one of those Japanophiles who think Katanas should do 8d10 damage or something? Also: we are fighting a lot of undead, as in basically every fight involves 2-3 undead. I might as well use a shield if I'm going to use a generic weapon, but I'm not wasting my two-weapon feats like that.

I have disagreed with several of the posters, but I only got mean when they started with an insult, kind of like you did. Also, how is my argument irrational? That I haven't given the weapon up to the whiny little child? How is that irrational?

Do you know what a min/maxer means? Provide your definition and I'll provide my own.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blue Star wrote:


@MDT:Really? +2hit(+4vs evil) 1d10+2(+4 vs evil, x2 vs evil outsiders and undead) vs +1 hit 1d6 isn't an outstanding difference?

Nice goalpost change. Talk about using it vs scorpions, and when someone points out that no, the difference between that and the wakizashi on those types of living opponents is negligable, you spout off about evil and outsiders. Unless your scorpions are actually some wierd form of scorpion demon, then I stand by my original statement. In general, against living opponents (which to me is mortal living beings, not outsiders or undead), then yeah, the sunblade isn't that much of a big boost that it's worth breaking up a gaming group over.

Blue Star wrote:


What are you one of those Japanophiles who think Katanas should do 8d10 damage or something?

Hmmm, no, nice diversionary insult though. Neatly deflects the attention of the moving goalposts.

Blue Star wrote:


Also: we are fighting a lot of undead, as in basically every fight involves 2-3 undead. I might as well use a shield if I'm going to use a generic weapon, but I'm not wasting my two-weapon feats like that.

Hmmm, I see, so you either get the shiny or you are worthless at fighting. That kind of negates your earlier statement about how your character didn't suck before the blade. Either the blade is critical to you being useful, or it's not critical at all, pick one.

Blue Star wrote:


I have disagreed with several of the posters, but I only got mean when they started with an insult, kind of like you did. Also, how is my argument irrational? That I haven't given the weapon up to the whiny little child? How is that irrational?

I didn't throw an insult, I made an observation on your behavior and posts. It becomes irrational when you are looking for the internet at large to tell you how to solve your problems and then agreeing only with those who say you should keep it, and denigrating everyone who comes up with any way in which you might lose the shiny. You have passed beyond rational arguments to 'I must be right, help me prove the precious must be mine to the other person'. Once you reach that point, you are no longer interested in solving the issue, you are only interested in winning your argument. Since you will not accept any rational solution that doesn't end with you winning, you have become irrational in your argument.

Blue Star wrote:


Do you know what a min/maxer means? Provide your definition and I'll provide my own.

A min/max'er is, to me, any person who must maximize their character to the detriment of the other players, both in character and out of character. It is someone who will insist on getting every piece of equipment that maximizes their numerical advantages without regards to any other player's feelings, out of character or in character. They will base their IC actions on their OOC desires to maximize their numerical advantages, and minimize their numerical disadvantages. Based on your posts here, you fit this to a tee.

You even stated you would be willing kill the other player's character as a last resort if you couldn't figure out a way to shut her up. If you don't find that an irrational state of mind, you might want to give up on this hobby for awhile, find something else to do with your spare time. You've obviously passed the point where you are either having fun, or contributing to other people's fun. Considering this is the second group in a row you have said you are going to quit because everyone in the game was inferior to you, I submit that you may want to take a break for awhile and seriously think about why you are playing, and what you want out of it.

I'm not saying you are having badwrongfun, but I am saying I think you are not playing with groups who's idea of goodfun is your idea of goodfun. You should find a group who's idea of goodfun is the same as yours. Continuing to play with groups who don't play the way you think they should is just going to end up with you having a long string of 'god that was an awful group' experiences, and leave you with such a bad reputation in your local community as a problem player that you will eventually be unable to find a group. As I said before, I'd ban you from my games if things got as bad as you describe, and I'd warn other GM's of the type of problems I had. If they didn't find your behaviour a problem, then they'd probably invite you in. But your type of fun is not what I consider fun, based on your posts.

Andoran

"You claim this belongs to you. I claim it belongs to me. Here, you hold it, I'll cleave it in twain, and we'll both take half."


You said the Sun blade was a minor upgrade to the wakizashi, I disagreed, how am I moving the goal post? That doesn't change the goal at all, not mine anyway, yours appears to be to simply insult me. You're deflecting now, I asked a question, it's a yes or no question, not a very good one, but it takes at most 3 little letters.

Not entirely worthless, but let's face it: if she's fighting, the fights going to go longer, simply because she's not built for combat, which means she's going to miss a lot with that weapon, which means I'm going to take more damage, which means the fights going to last even longer if she stops to heal me.

Oh really? You mean calling someone a min/maxer isn't an insult? Clearly there is a difference of opinion here, potentially irreconcilable. I'll clarify for you: I'm insulted you are calling me a min/maxer, when I know I'm not. Even by your definition.

I'm not looking at the internet at large to tell me what to do, I'm looking at the internet at large to give me ideas of how to handle this in a sociable manner, because I'm pretty good at socializing with normal people, socializing with crazy people (which I genuinely think she is) is significantly harder to do. The only arguments against my way of thinking are largely "give her the weapon, she deserves it more than you do, you worthless munchkin" though they don't all go out and say that explicitly, the implication is there, and that's good enough for me. The other arguments are saying "let her get herself killed" which would be against my character's previous behavior, and I would consider it significantly out of character if I did it. The rest of the people are on my side.

I'm wondering how keeping her from doing stupid things (like ignoring her duty as a healer, in order to get a chance to ineptly fight things that are kicking the crap out of dedicated combatants) is detrimental to her? Sounds to me like I'm saving her butt.

I said I'd be willing to kill her character, because she's threatening to kill mine, through criminal negligence, and I'd rather none of that business even begin. That's literally where the line is, she's trying to kill my character (indirectly), so I'm going to kill hers first.

The guy who keeps dying is on my side, I'm not sure about the summoner though, I haven't asked, though it's probably safe to say he's on my side. I suppose it's something I should do. By all odds it wouldn't have gotten to this point in your game, you probably would have provided my character something good for an off-hand by now, and I'd have let the sun blade go, but our GM has been real restrictive with equipment, he hasn't even given us the opportunity to make or buy our own weapons, and we've been in the game for 9 levels now.

EDIT: forgot my definition: a min/maxer is someone who tries to build a character with no weaknesses, and who is simply more powerful than all the other characters around him, taking the most optimal choices, no matter what the party needs. A min/maxer will take the items that he needs to become more powerful, even when there are people who could make better use of them. A min/maxer will also use loopholes in the rules to gain more power.


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As the final piece of advice that I'll give on this (and I apologize in advance for its length), first let me lead off with a little about myself. I'm a manager now, so dealing with interpersonal issues is part and parcel of my job, but many years ago when I started at my company I was in customer service (and still am, to a much lesser degree). Back before I was in management, my responsibilities would be in supporting between three and five clients at a time, and generally we'd support the same clients for years at a time.

Now, my very first client was, on the face, terrible luck for me to have been assigned to. They were argumentative, they ignored virtually every recommendation we made, and they bitterly complained when they ran into the very pitfalls we tried to steer them away from. My predecessor was fired, and I took over at a substantial disadvantage. They didn't even know me, but they disliked my predecessor, they disliked my company, and by extension they disliked me. They were very seriously considering ending our contract and walking away, even though they would have incurred a substantial cost to do so.

Given such a terrible situation, it was clear from the outset that I couldn't win any arguments with them. Persuading their CEO and other executives wouldn't happen by arguing with them, no matter how great my argument was - they simply would not listen. So I took a different approach.

When I gave them recommendations on some area, I'd test the waters to see how strongly they felt on each point. Without arguing, I discussed the pros and cons of each point and listened to see how strongly they felt. After the meeting ended, I would go to my notes and divide our points of difference into points that they were willing to compromise on, and points they were unwilling to compromise on. I'd also note down the points on which we agreed.

I then tried to come up with the best possible overall solution assuming they got their way on every point they were unwilling to compromise on. As long as I could come up with a proposal that was at least adequate, that became my second proposal to them. I made sure to be clear what the drawbacks would be compared to my first proposal, but then I also presented my best plans for how to deal with those drawbacks. I also tried to emphasize our points of agreement whenever I could, so that they they saw we were working towards a common goal.

Above all, my strategy was to build a rapport with the customer. As long as they saw me as an outsider or an adversary, they never really listened to me or trusted me. I needed to build a common ground to start from, and early on I needed to make many concessions to accomplish this. As time went on, however, they came to accept me and later to like me very much. While I've moved on to management and don't normally do customer work anymore, they are the one customer I've retained, because they are very vocal that I need to remain "on their team", and they won't accept another. Nowadays they follow my recommendations almost to the letter, and they are very happy with my company and our product.

Now, there's no easy recipe for success. My own accomplishments with this client were built slowly and painstakingly over several years, they certainly didn't happen overnight nor were they easy, and I think that will be true in your situation as well. But still, I'd approach this problem like this:

A) If this item hadn't existed at all, would you be absolutely guaranteed to lose the campaign? If the answer is 'no', then you have at least some room to be flexible on this point. It may well be better off in your hands, I won't argue that, but it's not a guaranteed loss if you had to give it up. You still can be successful without it.

B) It seems she's absolutely unwilling to compromise on the sword ownership, but she does seem willing to compromise on character build (feats, etc.). What is the best possible scenario you can come up with GIVEN that she gets the sword? If she was to have the sword, what steps does she need to take to ensure she uses it as best she is capable and does the best for the party and for herself? That's the compromise plan I would take, and the plan I would present to her. Again, you need to consider what's best not just from a game mechanics point of view, but from the point of view of your oracle enjoying the game and enjoying her role on your team.

You cannot win someone to your point of view while the argument endures. That seems counter-intuitive at first, but argument is the least effective form of persuasion. First, do what it takes to end the argument, and only then can you make progress on trying to win them over. Argument isn't a path to success, it's in fact a roadblock to success. You won't make progress until you get the roadblock out of the way.

C) Over time, I'd work at simply building rapport with her. Remember - nobody sees themselves as wrong in their own eyes. You have reasons for what you do, and they make complete sense to you. She has reasons for what she does, and they make complete sense to her. Build a common ground to work from, and even if you do lose this sword this time, consider it an investment into a better relationship with your fellow player. When you've built a common ground, not only will you be able to see her point of view, she'll be able to see yours, and over time the sense of teamwork will pay off for both of you. Having shown her that you are willing to compromise this time will make her more likely to compromise in the future. Think of it as a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain.

Plus, most importantly, you and she will have more fun playing a game where you can work together rather than being at each others' throats. After all, isn't the pursuit of fun the very reason that everyone first came to that table? This argument is killing that fun, not just for you and her, but for everyone else as well.


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Blue Star wrote:


I'm wondering how keeping her from doing stupid things (like ignoring her duty as a healer, in order to get a chance to ineptly fight things that are kicking the crap out of dedicated combatants) is detrimental to her? Sounds to me like I'm saving her butt.

Yea! And after combat is over, she better be making sandwiches and cleaning the armor or so help her...

Her only duty is to play her character as she sees fit as long as it is not to the detriment of the party or roleplay.

This whole problem is exasperated by your belief that her job is in your back pocket keeping you topped off while you do the heavy lifting. Did you ever thing -gasp- maybe she is tired of being a walking healing wand and wants a more active role?

If you want your walking healbot, get the dm to give you a weak heal monkey npc and let her play her character how she wants. Or ask her if she is tired of playing a heal focused build and support the option for her to just rework her build into some kind of battle cleric.


A)Yes, we would not have been able to kill that vampire without it, we barely did as is. The barbarian got mind-controlled, the oracle was dropped, I was in single digits 10 feat away from a nearly fresh (he'd cast 2 spells 3 including word of recall) 14th level cleric who is the guy we are gunning after now, and Bob the Snake was sent away for 24 hours. The summoner was okay, but if I hadn't had the Sun Blade to kill the vampire I'd die, then the summoner dies. We were in really bad shape.

B)The best possible scenario is that she magically resets her character into a paladin who was carrying the Sun Blade the entire time anyway. Barring that, she would have to spend the next few levels becoming a better combatant, while still being able to keep the party alive (somehow), which I can't think of a class combination that will allow for that.

Why do you think I've been asking how to end the argument, without giving into her?

C)I'll be honest, my first impression is that she was perhaps a little nutty, and time has proven that to be a vast underestimation. She is batpoop. I've been trying to work around her, but it is by no means easy.

@omgabear:Her character's duty. She heals or everyone dies.

I don't mean to sound like a dick, but the word you are looking for is exacerbated. Exasperated is what I feel.

I feel like her job is keeping us healed, which to be honest she's actually not very good at, adequate, sure, but barely. She knew that being a healer was boring, if she really wanted to mix things up she would have switched classes ages ago or never built a healer in the first place. Also, I'm the one making the sandwiches, and probably the only one that cleans gear, because no one has prestidigitation.

@ShadocatX:Believe it or not, I'm mostly worked up that I can't resolve it on my own, I try to be as self-sufficient as I possibly can be, and it's a seriously bad sign when I have to ask for help. People being aggressive toward me is not helping.


gnomersy wrote:


Just resurrect the Paladin

Or they could just copy the sword so everyone has one.

He did mention that they're in the middle of a dungeon, which makes stuff like getting someone to resurrect a character rather difficult. More difficult than it is usually in Golarion, where clerics of level 13 or up are few and far between.

Apparently, they can't even buy/sell stuff, and finding shops is usually easier than finding high priests.


Blue Star wrote:
@Moocrys: 1)You've missed an important part of this: she's not a cleric, she's an oracle, a class that really has no business being in combat.

Nothing much to do with the class really. The class, by itself, actually has half-decent combat abilities. What matters more is the mystery, and, of course, the character itself.

Now, life is not the right mystery for a fighting oracle. Battle oracles can be down-right frightening (I know what I'm talking about there. The Warspeaker was destruction on two legs).

But it sounds a lot like this character was not at all geared towards martial combat.


KaeYoss wrote:
Blue Star wrote:
@Moocrys: 1)You've missed an important part of this: she's not a cleric, she's an oracle, a class that really has no business being in combat.

Nothing much to do with the class really. The class, by itself, actually has half-decent combat abilities. What matters more is the mystery, and, of course, the character itself.

Now, life is not the right mystery for a fighting oracle. Battle oracles can be down-right frightening (I know what I'm talking about there. The Warspeaker was destruction on two legs).

But it sounds a lot like this character was not at all geared towards martial combat.

Correct, she's built almost exclusively around healing, and we need it to, but now she wants to swing a weapon.


Give her the sunblade if you can have the cloak in return. It helps your survivability and she get the weapon she is fixated on. You then work on your character's healing abilities w/o her. If not possible in the short term, change to ranged combat, while not ideal it increases your survivability more. Have the oracle be your meat shield, her desire to have the sunblade could have been in a vision from on high, surely would explain the fixation on it. She must also then have some divine insight in how to use it and does not need your protection going forward.

If she realizes that she has one less meat shield in front of her and now her own mortality in is the balance more often maybe she'll decide on her own to give it back to you. Your reasoning being destroying the undead faster than they have less of a chance of hurting the collective "you" is better than her spending all her time healing everyone.

If not your character from then on completely ignores hers. If she dies because of her own choices then so be it.

IF and when this comes to pass ask the other party members if they wish or are able to resurrect her. Also if at that point the blade comes up for grabs again ask the other fighter types if they wish to have it first, if not then you have rightful claim and anything after that is moot.

While your character may treat hers as a persona non grata you do not want to alienate the rest of the group by threatening to off her. Also stop play1ing the mule if anyone has issues with what you have in your possession.

I have played heal bots and unless it was specifically an artifact of my character's diety etc I am more than happy to have the frontliners have weapons they can use if it was purely a paperweight for me otherwise


@KaeYoss Hehehe Yup, Battle Oracles and Alchemist's down the Feral Mutagen can be rather scary and still having some versatility


Darkthorne68 wrote:

Give her the sunblade if you can have the cloak in return. It helps your survivability and she get the weapon she is fixated on. You then work on your character's healing abilities w/o her. If not possible in the short term, change to ranged combat, while not ideal it increases your survivability more. Have the oracle be your meat shield, her desire to have the sunblade could have been in a vision from on high, surely would explain the fixation on it. She must also then have some divine insight in how to use it and does not need your protection going forward.

If she realizes that she has one less meat shield in front of her and now her own mortality in is the balance more often maybe she'll decide on her own to give it back to you. Your reasoning being destroying the undead faster than they have less of a chance of hurting the collective "you" is better than her spending all her time healing everyone.

If not your character from then on completely ignores hers. If she dies because of her own choices then so be it.

IF and when this comes to pass ask the other party members if they wish or are able to resurrect her. Also if at that point the blade comes up for grabs again ask the other fighter types if they wish to have it first, if not then you have rightful claim and anything after that is moot.

While your character may treat hers as a persona non grata you do not want to alienate the rest of the group by threatening to off her. Also stop play1ing the mule if anyone has issues with what you have in your possession.

I have played heal bots and unless it was specifically an artifact of my character's diety etc I am more than happy to have the frontliners have weapons they can use if it was purely a paperweight for me otherwise

She probably won't give up the cloak. We don't have any other front liners aside from the snake, because the barbarian left for school, and obviously the snake can't use it, he has no arms. I suspect she will continue standing in the back, healing, leaving poor Bob up there by himself, and I like Bob.

I'm not entirely convinced this woman is in tune with reality, she may not realize it at all, plus, I'm not wasting all those feats I've spent on being good in melee, just to attempt to show here why she's wrong.

If she dies we don't have the ability to resurrect her, at all, right now.

She seems to be the only one that has a problem with my character.

She considers it an item of her god, I even told her that it isn't a scimitar, which means it's probably closer to Iomedae than hers.... even if it isn't Iomedae's weapon either.

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