So currently in my group I am playing the tanking role with the limited abilities of a fighter at 5th level. Though the concept of tanking seems fun in theory, it doesn't translate in pathfinder very well. Most of my abilities and feats aren't as detrimental on the table versus team bad guy. Is this a player error or just pathfinder in general? What locks down monsters outside of the feat extensive trip maneuvers? To better understand the fighter class the guide posted by Rogue Eidolon has been immensely helpful, is there another guide about this subject? Rogue's build for the sword and board fighter is pretty well what I am using for the time being if you all are curious. I will be grateful for some tactics or advice to keep my party from getting curb stomped.
As an after thought would it be worth it to multiclass into rogue to have the ability to stack some damage on AoO's?
Thanks for your help.
there is no aggro system like in MMO's so it is tougher. Though you might be able to talk your GM into a taunting feature-intimidate maybe. If you succeed they will attack you if you are in range, or something like that.
What bugs the crap out of me is that most "tanks" are more accurately described as "meat shields" the primary purpose of the tank, is to be the guy with the biggest gun on the scene, able to reach out and obliterate enemies from extreme range while still having eyes on the field of battle.
Real tanks are fast, agile, heavily armored, and they carry some of the largest land-based weapons. Most "tanks" in games are slow, they don't hit hard, and they typically aren't all that agile.
The M1 Abrams, Leopard 2, and the Challenger 2 are the best examples of this. They each can turn on a dime, hit upwards of highway speeds (with the governors off), and are functionally immune to their 120mm cannons on the front hull/turret. Oh, and they carry a 120mm cannon, and 2-3 secondary weapons, the lightest of which is a 7.62mm machine gun, the heaviest of which is this horrifying little number called the MK19 Grenade Launcher, which is a fully-automatic grenade launcher....it's almost like they hate everyone or something.
So if I used the term "meat shield" would I have received some advice on the above questions and not a content summary from FM 17-15?
No, probably not.
Like has been said, there is nothing that forces the monsters to attack you. The closest thing you'll get to the tank role in Pathfinder is crowd control, which casters do better then melee. The method is not the same (your not forcing the monsters to attack a target), but the results are (the monsters aren't attacking the soft targets. If done right, the monsters aren't really doing anything at all, as they are blind/stunned/attacking their friends/paralyzed/whatever.)
So if I used the term "meat shield" would I have received some advice on the above questions and not a content summary from FM 17-15?
Probably. The point I was making is that "tanking is a misnomer and it also happens to be my pet-peeve since I used to be an actual tanker" so I apologize, also: your question has already been summarily answered.
There are a couple ways you can mimic it to a degree, but most of those are considered more than a little faux-pas, particularly the antagonize feat, but again, most GMs aren't going to allow it, and it affects things that should normally be immune to such shenanigans, like Undead. Antagonize also doesn't last very long.
A good way of getting on the bad side of a lot of bad guys is to play a paladin, that is probably your best bet to be a tank proper, you will even hit like one.
As others have said, the lack of aggro makes the MMO "Tank" or "Meat Shield" a useless concept in Pathfinder. There are a few classes and options here and there (Stand Still, Order of the Shield Cavalier, that one Stalwart Defender power), but they aren't much compared to magic-based battlefield control. While stupid opponents might concentrate on the big armored guy with the sword, even vaguely intelligent or organized groups are going to take out the squishy artillery first.
There are tactics to deal with this, but unfortunately they aren't stuff you personally can do. One thing I've liked is confusing the enemy. Draw a holy symbol on your shield and hope people mistake you for a cleric. Have the wizard ditch the robes and grab a knife, and hope people think he is a rogue. This gets even better with hats of disguise. Lets see them pick on the wizard when EVERYONE looks not only like a wizard, but like the exact same wizard!
Beyond that, have your resident spellcasters (preferably Wizards or Druids) check out Treantmonk's guides, and get good at the battlefield control. It is amazing the difference a well placed Entangle or wall can make. Ideally, your job is to kill things they have disabled, or for them to route things so you only have to face one enemy at a time. If something comes after them, it is more important that you finish off whatever creature you are working on than run off to help. Good rear-echelon people will have some way to escape, whether an invisibility spell, good acrobatics, or plain running.
Also, on the topic of rogue, I would strongly recommend against it. Your AoO are almost never going to be against opponents you flank, and most tricks for denying an enemy their dexterity bonus are also going to keep them from moving around enough to provoke. Better to stay straight Fighter, maybe get weapon specialization or power attack if you don't already have them.
If you're a fighter and you're using a shield, look into the Shield Slam feat line and other feats like that.
Shield Slam gives you a free Bull Rush each time you hit them with your shield. So enemy attacks your caster, you charge them, smash them with the shield and toss them 20ft away.
Take the Bull Rush feats obviously too.
It's feat intensive, but that's why fighters get a bazillion of bonus feats.
Specialise in using the shield as your "primary" weapon with Weapon Focus, get it masterwork/enchanted. Add shield spikes.
Even when you're not using TWF you can mix shield and sword attacks if you want. For example with BAB 6, you can make the +6 attack with your sword for more damage, and then the +1 attack with the shield to throw him into the wall behind him. (but then the Bull Rush also takes the +1 as base instead of your full BAB, so if saving the Mage is the goal here, maybe just hit him with the shield as fast as possible to make sure it hits)
The feat Antagonize out of Ultimate Combat (I believe) is your friend
EDIT: I apologize, Ultimate Magic. Didn't have it open. Quite literally, make an intimidate check and they fly into a rage and have to try and make a melee attack against you.
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The feat Antagonize out of Ultimate Combat (I believe) is your friend.
EDIT: I apologize, Ultimate Magic. Didn't have it open. Quite literally, make an intimidate check and they fly into a rage and have to try and make a melee attack against you.
And it is nowhere near useful. Takes a standard action to use, so you can only attempt it 1/round, against 1 monster. It lasts a single round (unless the monster can't get to you, then you can use an immediate action to extend the effect a maximum of 1 additional round), and is only good for a single strike. And you can only target a monster 1 time per day, even if you fail the check.
Lets also not forget it only works on monsters with an intelligence of 3 or higher, and the monster needs to be able to understand you, so you need to share a language. Its next to useless for tanking.
... tactics or advice to keep my party from getting curb stomped.
the key phrase is tactics. Successfully preventing badguys from rushing your squishies isnt just up to you. Its up to them to take advantage of your actions, and its up to the DM to give you situations where tanking is possible.
The main problem i have seen with tanking in DnD is that fights become a race to kill the baddies first and deal the most damage. Spending two rounds positioning doesnt make sense if someone else charges blindly ahead.
as for actual tactics:
Use reach weapons and improved trip (with enlarge person). Use delayed partial charge (or bullrush) to intercept. Get combat reflexes. Get a tanking buddy - two frontliners with reach weapons can cover a lot of ground. Most of all, teach the casters where to move.
Your goals could be 1) that noone can reach casters without taking extra damage (ie aoo), 2) that noone can reach the casters with a single move/charge, 3) that anyone reaching the casters will be hit by full flanking attacks while the casters can withdraw to a safer spot.
Tanking in a narrow corridor is easy, just be in front and stand still. On a battlefield with lots of cover or difficult terrain there are always defensible positions, but few take advantage of it.
Tanking in an open field is tough, but there should be some rounds until casters are in melee range. Mounted 'tanking' is possible, or at the very least you can stand with your readied reach weapon directly in front of the caster.
ps. check also 'kirthfinder' houserules, there are some neat fighter talents and feats for tanking there.
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It's all about positioning. Most enemies will not run past a tank (yes I know that calling it that annoys some people but it is the generally accepted term.) if he's positioned correctly.
If you put yourself front and centre when setting up a combat most enemies will attempt to attack you because you are the nearest target.
There is some rage power for the barbarian that makes enemies attack you. It's once per rage so rage cycling would be required.
I kinda agree with Blue Star's interpretation of a Tank. What's more His version is easy to build in PF.
MMO's are things that draw fire.
Real tanks are Mobile and pack heavy hits. Fighters can do that in spades.
Make a fighter that moves well and can hit hard on closing. With good AC to boot. Then once the enemy is close you kill him.
Relatively easy.
By level 20 for example, you need to do around 100damage on a Standard action attack.
300 or more damage on a full attack.
AC needs to be 40 or more.
need a good speed (usually 60ft)
Ways to do it with fighter?
Two Weapon Warrior (can twf/rend as a standard action. With high str just meets the 100dpr on a standard and does 350-450 on a full attack)
Mobile Fighter/Dawnflower dervish- can do 150ish on a standard (rapid strike) and 350-450ish on a full attack), plus movement bonuses.
I have written a guide on TWF for fighters. You can find it in the guide to the guides thread.
You protect your allies by killing things dead REAL fast. A well built fighter should take 2 more than 2 rds to drop a foe. Or Move up and Standard Attack+Full Attack= dead.
Also when you can get them Pin down and Dazing Assault are pretty good for pinning the foe after the initial charge to close. Dazing Assault is a Rider effect on your attack. Pin down means a withdraw or 5ft step provokes to pin. Their only other choice is a move action to get away, that provokes anyway and you can dazing assault on an AOO.
Seriously people, are you getting hung up on the word "tank" now?
That's been used for the guy in heavy armor that takes all the hits (and usually does crappy damage) for about 15ish years in MMOs now. So ask yourself, if someone asks for a tank concept for PF, do they mean that or do they mean "I want to be a Leopard 2"?
I think they want exactly what they say, a heavily armored dude who absorbs hits and has an aggro ability.
I'm acknowledgeling besides ANTAGONISE, there is bugger all in pathfinder that lets you play an MMO style tank.
PINNING a foe in PF is doable though and it has the same effect of stopping a foe from hurting your buddies.
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The primary tanking (aggro holding) ability in Pathfinder is the Attack of Opportunity.
Either charge into melee at the first opportunity, or position yourself between the enemy and your allies (possibly with a held action to attack). If the enemy tries to leave you behind, make a ranged attack, or cast a spell to hurt your back-line characters, that enemy gets hit in the face by a full-time professional hit-in-the-face specialist.
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If you want to enhance this ability beyond what every Fighter can do with class abilities, there are feats, spells, and weapons available:
- Reach weapon
- Enlarge spell
- Combat Reflexes
- Trip weapon/Improved Trip
- Grapple
Lots of good advice in here already, i'd just like to add that just like in mmo gaming in pathfinder you still have to worry about "threat". Except its not on a meter like mmo's, when i gm i'm always thinking how would this npc react, is doing that worth the risk, who's the biggest threat, what looked the most impressive last round...
If you have a wizard tossing flashy spells around or an archer dropping an npc a turn they are going to draw attention, if theres a healer/buffer who's making the fight harder and he's easy to get to he's going to get hit. Your job is to be more threatening against the things that matter, a lot will come down to your groups gaming style but my group normally send the tank at the biggest threat, let the casters neutralise any minions, let the cannons open up on a few targets at once and try to funnell things to the tank with battlefield control.
My favourite tank is a barbarian with a ring of friend shield, sick saves and come and get me with antagonise. Any martial can pull it off though you just need to make yourself an easier target while still having the survivability to take the hits.
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To pull off a tanking role, I would go fighter with a polearm. Give yourself a healthy (14?) dexterity and combat reflexes, and start each battle by advancing and drinking a potion of enlarge person. Let the attacks of opportunity (sometimes to smash, sometimes to trip) come, and just make sure you're in between the baddies and the squishies.
I object to the term "meat shield". As we all know, the ultimate meat is bacon and bacon should never ever be used as a shield from weaponry. Instead, it should be used to wrap every other food in and consumed as the delightfully smoky tasty delicacy it is.What bugs the crap out of me is that most "tanks" are more accurately described as "meat shields" the primary purpose of the tank, is to be the guy with the biggest gun on the scene, able to reach out and obliterate enemies from extreme range while still having eyes on the field of battle.
Oh, I know, the meat is the lure, the shield is what's doing all the work protecting the considerably squishier elements, you shouldn't use bacon in such a way, but sometimes it's better than the alternative.
The key is to get large size and trip.
Forget about the shield. You have hit points, your friends have wands of CLW.
Being in the way isn't enough unless you have a very narrow corridor. Otherwise people can just walk around you. You almost need to trip (with or without the trip feats) to do so.
A reach weapon,large size, and spiked armor will give you almost unfettered access to the entire battlemat. If anything comes at your party not only do they need to get around your 10 foot wide wall of meat but your 50 foot wide threat area. They cannot simply choose to run by you and go after the casters, as they will if you're doing sword and board aoo damage.
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I think the best way for a tank to draw and hold agro in Pathfinder is to
a) hit hard (makes you a high-value target)
b) don't be TOO hard to hit (if AC is too high, they will give up and go after a softer target)
c) have enough hit points to survive
Using a big 2 handed weapon and taking a a couple of offensive feats can usually takes care of (a), and not using a shield also helps with (b). High CON fighters and barbarians do well with (c), but a paladin (with lots of Lay On Hands) may be the best at replenishing their health.
Seriously?
There are a lot of feats that give you the ability to stop enemies movement, take damage from an attack that targeted an ally, disarm, trip, push, drag, or something like combat patrol.
Judicious use of the reposition combat maneuver can really help out the glassier members of the party and help make it hard for enemies to ignore you. You don't even need a feat investment to have it in your arsenal of tricks... your AC and hit points are probably high enough to suck an AoO for repositioning an enemy.
Plus, there are plenty of enemies that only have one AoO per round. When you eat up AoOs, it gives your other party members more options to do cool things.
Since PF is a little more 'cinematic' and less video-gamey than 4th Edition, your warrior can always just try to push the enemy's buttons: make him so mad that he'll try to attack you for emotional, rather than rational, reasons. This is another good reason to use Diplomacy to gather info before a fight - if you learn that your enemy's driven by honor, you can spit on his weapon: if he's greedy, call dibs on his gear in mid-fight: if she's reknowned for her jealousy, compliment her husband in a very... earthy manner. It's not a matter of game mechanics, but if you push the right buttons you'll sometimes be able to pull it off. (This is a good reason for a fighter to take Linguist - to successfully enrage foes in six different languages.)
This and more. Pathfinder tabletop is a different mindset than an MMO. The two can learn from eachother, but I think we all benefit by having them be separate. It's diversity, and diversity in play, diversity in types of games and things out there to enjoy.
We're very fortunate, in other words. :)
Where the confusion comes in, I think, is we have a growing number of people who came from MMOs into Pathfinder, rather than the reverse. We tend to think in terms of what's familiar--in this case, it's just putting on a slightly different pair of shoes.
Get Combat Patrol. Full-round action to set up, but any provoking action within a certain range around you lets you move up to them and AoO. Use that AoO to trip or disarm, or shield bash and bull rush them.
Rogue Eidolon wrote a Guide to Fighers that covers a fighter designed for protecting the party. He calls the concept the Defender of the Weak. (His messageboard posting is at this link in case the direct link to Googledocs fails.)