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See Quandary's post here. (Everyone should FAQ the OP's post there too!)
This doesn't seem right. It essentially gives a level 17 ability at level 2.
At 2nd level, a scarred rager who fails a save against an effect that causes her to become nauseated, sickened, fatigued, or exhausted can make a second save to negate the effect on the start of her next turn. Only one additional save is allowed. If the effect does not allow a saving throw, its duration is halved instead (minimum of 1 round).
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
What are the arguments for this being intentional? What are the arguments for it not being intentional?
It looks like it could work, but you'd be playing without any of your rage powers between turns. That's no superstition, no CAGM, no ghost rager or eater of magic...
And that seems very ill-advised.
Well, FAQ it? :)
The use of it would be to get the main benefits of rage cycle, being able to use once per rage powers every round over and over. You'd obviously keep it up if you needed the passive bits.
I wonder if people who rage cycle keep track of what their new HP, and if dropping rage killed them...
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Wait, but isn't the fatigue duration 2 rounds per round of rage? So they can halve this to 1 round per round of rage (as it has no save), but still take fatigue penalties for the interim.
The biggest implication is that the rage powers will not be active nor usable when not his turn if using this.
Also, is it really a 1-round duration if the one suffering it never took their turn while it was active? I'd say it wasn't and rule that the fatigue ends at the *end* of their turn instead, since that matches up with when they started it.
I would track hp for that, but my BARBARIAN has a vision range of 850 ft, and a 900 foot charge radius.
It's been a while since AM was scratched.
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It seems a pretty obvious repurcussion of the ability to me.
To be clear, what is the NORMAL functioning of Rage without this Archetype?
1 Rage Round = 2 rounds of Fatigue.
That means Round 1: you Rage, act, drop your Rage before your turn ends... and are not fatigued on your Turn of Round 3.
(this is how X round duration effects work)
In other words, the BASE LINE of Rage is that you can use 1/Rage Rage Powers EVERY OTHER ROUND although you are Fatigued in-between
and can`t access any benefits of Rage (a very good reason for not doing this regularly: you`re wasting most of your class abilities).
The Archetype is just halving the time-cycle for this, which is it`s explicit goal, so I don`t see the controversy there.
Actual `Rage Cycle` strategies are just accelerating this, and via Immunities/negation, removing the Fatigue completely.
MY only question, which may or may not be FAQ worthy (sometimes I`m just dumb) is as follows:
Fatigue isn`t really affecting most of your combat stats besides movement/charging (the DIRECT down-side of dropping Rage after your Turn is just non-access to defensive Rage Powers / Save bonuses, etc which apply `off your turn`), so the main danger I see from it is that any Fatigue effect that hits you during this time would now make you Exhausted, which is a more severe condition.
My question is: if you are Fatigued, and then that Fatigue is escalated to Exhaustion, what happens when the duration of the orginal Fatigue wears off? Does the Exhaustion drop to Fatigued? Or does it not care, and just follows it`s own duration? (and would drop to zero when it wears off... unless the original Fatigue duration was still in effect) This applies to alot more stuff than Rage honestly, as well as to other escalating effects, like Fear/Intimidation, besides Fatigue.
Also, is it really a 1-round duration if the one suffering it never took their turn while it was active?
X round duration effects are defined globally in this game.
If they wanted to diverge from that definition, they would/should have explicitly done so.In lieu of that, why would anybody NOT use the normal definition of how X round duration effects work?
You are kind of just making things up if you don`t use that definition... (which is OK, but realize that`s what you are doing)
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I have a question.
You can actually "remove" fatigue while doing a strenuous physical activity?
While walking you can do that, but while fighting?
The rules say "Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted.", but they don't say anything about what level of activity is required to remove fatigue.
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Also, is it really a 1-round duration if the one suffering it never took their turn while it was active?X round duration effects are defined globally in this game.
If they wanted to diverge from that definition, they would/should have explicitly done so.
In lieu of that, why would anybody NOT use the normal definition of how X round duration effects work?
You are kind of just making things up if you don`t use that definition... (which is OK, but realize that`s what you are doing)
Could you cite a definition of rounds duration, please? I don't have my book right now (at work >.>).
I'm currently operating under "lasts X rounds", with a round lasting from the beginning of a turn to the beginning of the same entity's turn, or from end-to-end.
@Diego: Most fatigue is healed by 8 hours of rest. However, if the fatigue lists a specific duration or other ending factor (like "heal all this nonlethal damage"), then that overrides and any other activity taken is irrelevant (unless it causes a new source of fatigue, of course).
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@Diego: Most fatigue is healed by 8 hours of rest. However, if the fatigue lists a specific duration or other ending factor (like "heal all this nonlethal damage"), then that overrides and any other activity taken is irrelevant (unless it causes a new source of fatigue, of course).
That is my doubt. While fighting RAW don't cause fatigue, it is hardly a restful activity.
It seem one of those "common sense" things that never make into the rules.You can't swing your sword for an hour straight without suffering some level of fatigue [yes, our character are superhuman after a point, so they can go way longer than a normal man].
There is no doubt that after 2 round of not-strenuous activity for each round of rage you should recover. I have some doubt about if rounds of strenuous activity count for that.
In the 3.x edition the fatigued effect after leaving rage lasted for the whole battle and then ended immediately. Now it as a timed duration, apparently independent from your activity.
As it is relevant about the discussion if some rage powers are meant to be used "once for encounter" or can be used playing with the rage on/off switch I am curious to see if there is something that specifically say that what activity you take is irrelevant or if it an assumption while the rules are silent.
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@Diego: Most fatigue is healed by 8 hours of rest. However, if the fatigue lists a specific duration or other ending factor (like "heal all this nonlethal damage"), then that overrides and any other activity taken is irrelevant (unless it causes a new source of fatigue, of course).That is my doubt. While fighting RAW don't cause fatigue, it is hardly a restful activity.
It seem one of those "common sense" things that never make into the rules.
You can't swing your sword for an hour straight without suffering some level of fatigue [yes, our character are superhuman after a point, so they can go way longer than a normal man].There is no doubt that after 2 round of not-strenuous activity for each round of rage you should recover. I have some doubt about if rounds of strenuous activity count for that.
In the 3.x edition the fatigued effect after leaving rage lasted for the whole battle and then ended immediately. Now it as a timed duration, apparently independent from your activity.As it is relevant about the discussion if some rage powers are meant to be used "once for encounter" or can be used playing with the rage on/off switch I am curious to see if there is something that specifically say that what activity you take is irrelevant or if it an assumption while the rules are silent.
You misunderstand me: for sources of fatigue that list a specific duration the amount of activity has no bearing on when THAT INSTANCE of the fatigue condition goes away. So you won't delay the rage fatigue going away by fighting, because that instance has a specified duration. Other sources that do not have a duration, such as fighting for an hour straight or not sleeping, require 8 hours of rest to get rid of.
The reason for this is because sources of fatigue with a duration are not normal fatigue. They're an imposed fatigue effect by some kind of magical, supernatural or extraordinary force. Ex abilities (such as rage) are known to be capable of having magic-like effects without being magic.
Basically what I was saying in my previous post is that if you had something that said "Fatigue, duration 8 hours" then decided to sprint for an hour, the former fatigue's duration is not affected, but you are hit with a new (and stacking) fatigue condition that only heals with rest. This means that you are exhausted until the removal condition of one of the two is met.
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@Stabbitty
I did got what you were saying. It is that I am not totally convinced for the reasons explained above.
Note that your fatigue/exhausted example don't work.
Exhausted: .... After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue.
There is not "if one of the effect causing fatigue is removed, the exhausted condition end" clause.
In your example if you were under a magical effect that would make you fatigued for eight hours and then sprint for one hour you became exhausted. The only way to remove that (barring the use of magic) is to rest one hour.
Then you are fatigued until you rest 8 hours and the magical effect end.
You must satisfy both condition to end the fatigued condition as you are fatigued for ending a exhausted condition.
The only exception is if the exhausted condition was imposed only by magical effects, stacked or not, so it end when the magical effect end.
But if it was caused by your actions (like sprinting) the condition follow all the normal rules.
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I disagree. I believe that the normal path to remove exhaustion is based on the non-duration'd sources. The spell Ray of Exhaustion, for example, does not take 1 hour of rest to heal (it "heals" when the spell ends). The spell also makes a fatigued person exhausted even if they make their save, but again this only lasts for the duration of the spell.
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I disagree. I believe that the normal path to remove exhaustion is based on the non-duration'd sources. The spell Ray of Exhaustion, for example, does not take 1 hour of rest to heal (it "heals" when the spell ends). The spell also makes a fatigued person exhausted even if they make their save, but again this only lasts for the duration of the spell.
Interesting point.
So:
natural fatigue then add "unnatural" fatigue -> "unnatural" exhaustion that will be cured when the unnatural fatigue end.
Unnatural + unnatural -> unnatural exhaustion, it end when one of the unnatural effects end
So far no problem, we agree.
"unnatural" fatigue then add natural fatigue -> at this point the fatigue is natural or unnatural?
From my point of view the order of the factors is relevant and the resulting exhaustion is natural.
I think it is more a matter of taste than rules.
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I disagree. I believe that the normal path to remove exhaustion is based on the non-duration'd sources. The spell Ray of Exhaustion, for example, does not take 1 hour of rest to heal (it "heals" when the spell ends). The spell also makes a fatigued person exhausted even if they make their save, but again this only lasts for the duration of the spell.Interesting point.
So:
natural fatigue then add "unnatural" fatigue -> "unnatural" exhaustion that will be cured when the unnatural fatigue end.Unnatural + unnatural -> unnatural exhaustion, it end when one of the unnatural effects end
So far no problem, we agree.
"unnatural" fatigue then add natural fatigue -> at this point the fatigue is natural or unnatural?
From my point of view the order of the factors is relevant and the resulting exhaustion is natural.
I think it is more a matter of taste than rules.
This does indeed seem to be where we differ. I do not believe the unnatural + natural == natural, but I also do not believe that unnatural + natural == unnatural. I believe that it is an even split. You lose the unnatural part when the unnatural part goes away, and you lose the natural part when you meet its conditions.
I wish people weren`t so hung up on this issue, because the Scarred Rager is so cool regardless...
Shrug. Call me skeptical, but it is a bit odd that such a powerful ability is tucked away in the last sentence of an ability, almost as an aside.
Any other opinions on this one?
My opinion is like what others said. It halves the duration you're fatigued from raging to 1 round per round of rage. Seems pretty simple and clear-cut.
Shrug. Call me skeptical, but it is a bit odd that such a powerful ability is tucked away in the last sentence of an ability, almost as an aside.
A one level Lame Oracle dip at level 9+ just gives you outright fatigue immunity. A "real" Oracle has that since level 5... It's a nice class feature but it's not THAT powerful... *Shrug*
My opinion is like what others said. It halves the duration you're fatigued from raging to 1 round per round of rage. Seems pretty simple and clear-cut.
Shrug. Call me skeptical, but it is a bit odd that such a powerful ability is tucked away in the last sentence of an ability, almost as an aside.A one level Lame Oracle dip at level 9+ just gives you outright fatigue immunity. A "real" Oracle has that since level 5... It's a nice class feature but it's not THAT powerful... *Shrug*Someone doesn't know what rage cycling is.
But anyways, it does seem to be that it cuts your time fatigued in half which is nice but doesn't allow for rage cycling so isn't OMG broken.
The issue is this line, IIRC:
Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
You turn off rage on your turn. It lasts one round. You are fatigued until the beginning of your next turn, in which case the fatigue condition goes away, and you can rage right away. It's like Mini-Rage Cycling, at level 2.