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I was prepping my clerics spell list and came across two spells that confuse me. Cleanse and Surmount affliction.
Surmount Affliction
School abjuration; Level cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range you
Target personal
Duration 1 round/level
You temporarily overcome one harmful condition. This does not end the effect causing the condition; it just suspends that condition’s effect for the duration of the spell. You can surmount any one of the following conditions: blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, fatigued, frightened, paralyzed, shaken, or sickened.
Says it can remove paralyze and daze, but you cannot cast spells(with Verbal and somatic components) in either case.
Cleanse
School evocation; Level cleric/oracle 5, inquisitor 6; Domain divine 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S, DF
EFFECT
Range personal
Targets you
Duration instantaneous
Positive energy infuses and cleanses your body. This spell cures 4d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +25) and ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting you: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, poisoned, and sickened.
In addition, cleanse functions as break enchantment upon a single additional effect of your choice that is affecting you and that can be legally affected by this effect.
If used by undead or other creatures healed by negative energy, the spell cleanses with negative energy rather than positive.
This spell says it can remove nauseated condition, but once again you cannot cast spells while nauseated. Why does pathfinder have personal spells that remove conditions that you cannot use while you have the condition?
I was prepping my clerics spell list and came across two spells that confuse me. Cleanse and Surmount affliction.
Surmount Affliction
School abjuration; Level cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range you
Target personal
Duration 1 round/levelYou temporarily overcome one harmful condition. This does not end the effect causing the condition; it just suspends that condition’s effect for the duration of the spell. You can surmount any one of the following conditions: blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, fatigued, frightened, paralyzed, shaken, or sickened.
Says it can remove paralyze and daze, but you cannot cast spells(with Verbal and somatic components) in either case.
Cleanse
School evocation; Level cleric/oracle 5, inquisitor 6; Domain divine 5
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S, DF
EFFECT
Range personal
Targets you
Duration instantaneousPositive energy infuses and cleanses your body. This spell cures 4d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +25) and ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting you: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, poisoned, and sickened.
In addition, cleanse functions as break enchantment upon a single additional effect of your choice that is affecting you and that can be legally affected by this effect.
If used by undead or other creatures healed by negative energy, the spell cleanses with negative energy rather than positive.
This spell says it can remove nauseated condition, but once again you cannot cast spells while nauseated. Why does pathfinder have personal spells that remove conditions that you cannot use while you have the condition?
Silent Spell and Still Spell maybe? *shrugs* I recall that 3.5 had some like that too though.
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As already stated you can prepare (or have the ability to cast) a silent and still version of the spell.
You can have the Liberation domain and use one round of your Liberation domain power to be capable to cast the spell.
From what I recall there are classes and archetypes that allow you to "downgrade" the effect of the nauseated condition to sickened.
So it isn't that those spells can't ever be used if you are suffering for the X condition. You can still use them if you have the right guy with the right abilities. The other characters get less benefits for the same spell.
As the game has a growing quantity of combinations between class and archetype powers, feats and abilities sometime a spell that seem problematic get its full effect only when combined with the capabilities of a specific build.
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I actually really like it when a published Spell has a description which not only focuses on the obvious uses, but also keeps in mind the Spell might be outside the intended situation. Some excellent examples have already been given by the posters above me. These 2 spells would also be really nice when chained to a Contingency!
Bottom line; To answer your question as to why these spells confuse you, think outside the box. What always defines a set of rules is not it's intentions, but rather it's exceptions. Always keep this in mind when designing your own game-logic :)
Good Emergency Potion for another member of the party to give you.
Good Emergency Potion for another member of the party to give you.
Core Rules, pg. 551: "Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions."
Still and/or Silent versions are still good, as are contingency and use activated items (i.e., a ring of cleansing similar to a ring of counterspells).
I actually really like it when a published Spell has a description which not only focuses on the obvious uses, but also keeps in mind the Spell might be outside the intended situation. Some excellent examples have already been given by the posters above me.
Those specific examples don't work, although Rossi may be correct regarding unlisted archetypes; see below.
Unless I am mistaken, I am pretty sure there are feats you can take that allow you to cast spells without verbal or somatic components, like Silent spell. I guess in that case it should work. If I am wrong then it must be a mistake that made it through, it's the only other explanation I can think of.
Silent Spell and Still Spell maybe?
The Nauseated condition and the Dazed condition both prevent any spell casting, regardless of if/which metamagic feats are added.
Do rings of spell storing require an activation word/gesture? I'm thinking this would be a great option there.
All 3 versions (Minor Ring of Spell Storing, Ring of Spell Storing, and Major Ring of Spell Storing) require a standard action, neither of which is possible with the Dazed nor the Nauseated conditions. These spells might still be worth putting in the ring for other conditions BUT the spell still can't do things they read as being able to do.
You can have the Liberation domain and use one round of your Liberation domain power to be capable to cast the spell. From what I recall there are classes and archetypes that allow you to "downgrade" the effect of the nauseated condition to sickened.
The Liberation Domain creates an effect identical in function to Freedom of Movement. F.o.M. removes impediments to movement, not actions such as the Dazed nor the Nauseated conditions. No other powers of the Liberation domain directly effect the cleric.
These 2 spells would also be really nice when chained to a Contingency!
True, but only Cleric 3 or Oracle 4 who casts also cast as a wizard 11 or sorcerer 12 can use Contingency with Surmount Affliction to remove all the conditions its listed as being able to remove. Also only wizard 5 or sorcerer 6, Cleric 3 or Oracle 4, and Mystic Thurge 10 can use Cleanse with Contingency. Might be handy for a Mystic Thurge but that VERY specific.
Still and/or Silent versions are still good, as are contingency and use activated items (i.e., a ring of cleansing similar to a ring of counterspells).
Is Ring of Cleansing a core item or home brew?
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The developers had a brain fart, and they didn't realize the problems inherent in the spell description, and nobody caught it prior to publication.
Or, they totally intended that people would need to cast a Silent & Still Surmount Affliction spell in order to remove several of the listed conditions. Honest.
Contingency can be cast from scroll or other item, and/the surmount affliction could be cast the same way. Don't need to have caster levels in either depending on the route taken.
Irovettis contingency dim door from rivers of blood as example though he had the ability to cast the dim door. He scrolled the contingency.
A Cleric with the Animal Domain could use the Cleanse and Surmount Affliction to remove said affliction from their companion as they can share spells with the "you" target.
They could also be used for magic item creation (not sure if there's an existing item that uses either, but a custom item of "the first time per day you are subjected to the nauseated/dazed condition, <item name> casts <appropriate spell> on you automatically" type thing.
Contingency can be cast from scroll or other item, and/the surmount affliction could be cast the same way. Don't need to have caster levels in either depending on the route taken.
Irovettis contingency dim door from rivers of blood as example though he had the ability to cast the dim door. He scrolled the contingency.
I could be wrong about this but I was under the impression that all choices for a spell besides the target/area of effect had to be made at the time it was put into a scroll. Is there something that contradicts that I'm missing something?
dunelord3001 maybe before criticizing you should look all the impediment cited:
"Surmount Affliction: Says it can remove paralyze and daze, but you cannot cast spells(with Verbal and somatic components) in either case."
Still and silent or Liberation Domain work perfectly when paralyzed.
The point is the spells don't do what they say they do and none of the examples given to that point would allow them do so. Namely be possible to be cast in away that removes all the conditions they say they do. Surmount Affliction has to be hooked up to a Contingency to remove dazed, and Cleanse has to be hooked up to a Contingency to remove nauseated. To even remove paralyze it has be hooked up to a cleric domain or a two feats. If that much being added on doesn't show the spells don't do what they say they do, I'm at a loss to your logic.
@ Fozbek - The point I'm trying to convey is that a 2nd level spell should do what it says it does without requiring a multiclass build that goes up to at least 14th level. And Miracle costs vary.
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The still/silent spell works for paralyze, but dazed lets you take no actions. The example of primal scream makes perfect sense for spells like this. That is how it should work. What I was hoping to have clarified or errata'ed is that these spells are supposed to do X, but cannot do so as written without Y and/or Z. Thanks
@ Fozbek - The point I'm trying to convey is that a 2nd level spell should do what it says it does without requiring a multiclass build that goes up to at least 14th level.I don't see a problem with these specific instances. They work as described. It's difficult to actually use them in a few circumstances where they could be useful, but that doesn't make them badly designed or require them to be made significantly more powerful.
And make no mistake, allowing them to be cast, as is with no interaction with any other effect, while paralyzed, dazed, or nauseated to remove those afflictions would increase their power level past that of a 2nd level spell.
EDIT: And they don't require multiclass builds to use even for those purposes.
They don't remove the condition, they just suppress it for a number of rounds equal to your caster level. 2nd Level is justified imo.