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So when you grapple and deal the extra piercing dmg with the armor spikes what is added to it? Spike enhancement only? Spike enhancement plus 1/2 str mod? Enhancement plus str mod? Enhancment plus 1 1/2 str mod? Where is the rule that states what it is?
I assume in the case of greater and rapid grapple that you could do armor spike dmg when making a grapple check up to 3 times a round correct? (SW, MA, and SA)
Would the +5 bonus to maintain the grapple count for each of the above three attempts? (SW, MA, and SA)
Armor spikes deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
So when you grapple and deal the extra piercing dmg with the armor spikes what is added to it? Spike enhancement only? Spike enhancement plus 1/2 str mod? Enhancement plus str mod? Enhancment plus 1 1/2 str mod? Where is the rule that states what it is?
I assume in the case of greater and rapid grapple that you could do armor spike dmg when making a grapple check up to 3 times a round correct? (SW, MA, and SA)
Would the +5 bonus to maintain the grapple count for each of the above three attempts? (SW, MA, and SA)
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Well, Spiked Armor is listed as a light weapon on the chart, so I think it is safe to assume that it would follow the rules for light weapons. Thus the damage would be (weapon damage)+(enhancement)+(1xStrength bonus).
As to how many times you would get to use the "damage" as part of an attempt to maintain the grapple, your interpretation seems to be RAW... Furthermore, by RAW, I don't see why the +5 bonus to maintain the grapple wouldn't apply to all the attempts you make. If this is RAI however... I won't hazard a guess.
If you can use the same action multiple times in a round then it would also open the rather cheesy option of using the Grapple action on an ally as a standard action, then maintaining it as a move action and using the "move" option to drag your ally half your movement rate, then using the swift action to drag them another half your movement rate, then releasing them from the grapple as a free action. Heck, if you grappled them the previous round you could haul them them 1.5x your movement before releasing them.
Guess Monks may have a future as booster rockets for the rest of the party? What a disturbing concept.
Guess Monks may have a future as booster rockets for the rest of the party? What a disturbing concept.
Ya, got a laugh from me.
So your take on "You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case." would include the spikes as a light weapon even if it only states it works as such during regular melee attacks. I might be wrong but I for some reason think of a grapple attempt different than a regular melee attack.
Currently in my game, I have only been dealing the 1d6 spike dmg with no bonus based on other players interpretation. I guess they didnt think it counted as a light weapon when the spikes do dmg during a successful grapple attempt.
"Guess Monks may have a future as booster rockets for the rest of the party? What a disturbing concept."
Ya, got a laugh from me.
So your take on "You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case." would include the spikes as a light weapon even if it only states it works as such during regular melee attacks. I might be wrong but I for some reason think of a grapple attempt different than a regular melee attack.
Currently in my game, I have only been dealing the 1d6 spike dmg with no bonus based on other players interpretation. I guess they didnt think it counted as a light weapon when the spikes do dmg during a successful grapple attempt.
From the Grapple rules:
Damage
You can inflict ability damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon.
That's the only hard rule I've found for armor spikes in a grapple. The flavor text "which can deal damage in a grapple or as a separate attack" doesn't give much guidance, so I think we have to fall back on the table.
That said... I really hope I've missed something about the "Monk Booster Rocket" concept, because the whole idea just pains me too much.
I cant think of a rule that says you can not move more than your speed a round that would stop the Monk Booster.
Another grapple question. Anyone think that armor spike enhancement would add to CMB for grapple? Why or why not? If you automatically get the dmg with a successful grapple why couldnt they assist in grappling?
Anyone disagree that armor spikes used in grapple do 1d6+str mod? Shouldnt it be half str mod for a light weapon?
My 6th lvl barb is gettin a little scary dmg wise. Has animal fury and lesser elemental rage powers with greater grapple and 25 str raged.
Fury+E+Spike+E+Strike+E+Fury+E+Spike+E+Strike+E
4d6+2d4+34+6d6 Element @ spikes=+str mod dmg
Fury lets me bite to maintain 1d4+3 (x2 for MA and SA action)
Spikes and strikes are 1d6+7 each (A armor spike and grapple dmg action per action, MA+SA)
then lesser elemental is 1d6 per melee atk for the round (I counted the strikex2 and the bitesx2 and the armor spike dmg from a successful grapple checkx2 for 6d6 elemental dmg that round) as swift action (SW)
This assumes all hits of course. All this is a combined swift+standard+move for the round.
Would I be also correct to assume that armor spike enhancement would apply to CMB when attempting to grapple or maintaining a grapple?
reason is, if you take a -4 penalty to grapple attempts when not proficient with the spikes you should also receive the bonuses, including weapon focus and enhancement bonus like things to grapple CMB.
I previously thought none of these bonuses applied because your not using the weapon to do the maneuver...after the discussion above I am thinking differently. Do the rest of you see it the same way?
Would I be also correct to assume that armor spike enhancement would apply to CMB when attempting to grapple or maintaining a grapple?
[...] Do the rest of you see it the same way?
No, you do not utilize a weapon to make a grapple generally (some weapons are written to allow this see: Mancatcher). So it would not add to your CMB. However, they can hinder your attempt (not having two hands free, not being proficient with spikes).
So we are defaulting to if the weapon doesnt specifically say in its description that is it used in a maneuver that its bonuses and feats etc applied to that weapon dont count towards that CMB. Not sold 100% but its better than nothing.
So whats your stance on the armor spikes when doing extra piercing dmg from a grapple being 1d6+str mod or 1d6+ 1/2 str mod?
Remeber the Grappler (The one controlling it) can only cause dame once per round. Grapple Rules (Don't forget the +5 to maintain the grapple)
Remeber the Grappler (The one controlling it) can only cause dame once per round. Grapple Rules (Don't forget the +5 to maintain the grapple)
Damage as in the strike option when making the grapple check, yes. But dont forget the armor spike dmg is in addition to that upon a successful grapple. And dont forget to repeat the above with greater grapple...and again with rapid grapple...oh and animal fury with a free bite per maintain. I asked above how many of these would lesser elemental rage power apply to without any reply yet either. Anyone want to take a stab?
I sure hope this gets clarified officially as I have been wondering about it on and off for YEARS.
So we are defaulting to if the weapon doesnt specifically say in its description that is it used in a maneuver that its bonuses and feats etc applied to that weapon dont count towards that CMB. Not sold 100% but its better than nothing.
It's the best we have.
So whats your stance on the armor spikes when doing extra piercing dmg from a grapple being 1d6+str mod or 1d6+ 1/2 str mod?
1d6 + STR, as if using a light weapon to deal damage.
Remeber the Grappler (The one controlling it) can only cause dame once per round. Grapple Rules (Don't forget the +5 to maintain the grapple)
What if i can make more than one check a round is there anyting that prohibits multiple damages then?
Would I be also correct to assume that armor spike enhancement would apply to CMB when attempting to grapple or maintaining a grapple?
No, no more than an enhancement bonus to unarmed strike would apply to CMB (notwithstanding the fact that grappling might use the user's unarmed strike or armor spikes to determine damage).
Talonhawle,
As pointed out by Vienemen, if you have the Feats that grant multiple grapple actions (Or reduce the action from Standard to Move) then you, as the controller of the grapple take additional grapples to cause damage. (You do not use your normal attack iteration)
The person grappled in this situation has the advantage, as they can attack with their normal attack iteration (As long as it only takes one hand)
True they can do a full attack on you when you grapple, but I would be spending all actions I can to cause that person to be pinned before they can do that full attack on me.
Let me recap all the above so far
-The enhancement bonus for enchanted spikes do not count towards the CMB to make the grapple even though you will take a penalty to that roll if your not proficient
-Armor spikes do 1d6+str mod in dmg when they do the additional dmg with a successful grapple
-Barb rage power animal fury will give the bite attack while raging to each maintain attempt (pretty much every grapple roll past the first)
-Any ability that gives dmg per attack (like the rage power lesser elemental) will apply the extra dmg to the Fury bites, the grapple strikes, and the grapple armor spike extra dmg
-the +5 to maintain the grapple is applied to all the CMB grapple attempts during the round after the initial hold is kept(MA, SA, SW for imp, greater and rapid grapple)
-If you chose to do so in the imp, greater, rapid grapple feat scenario, grapple a buddy and move up to x1.5 your speed for the round selecting the move grapple option for each of the 3 attempts that round (creative find CyderGnome)
Thats what I got so far...what other grapple qwirks we got left to cover? Damn, with the 3 big grapple feats thats like 3 attacks at highest BaB+5 after the first hold. And your opponent is likely pinned and prone with a single "full attack". By full atk I of course mean SA, MA, SW use. Has good RP flavor and is effective yet not min/maxxed broken.
So how does this work with a large tiger wearing spiked mithril armor? How many times can the tiger claw 1d6+str then rake 1d6+str and add spike damage 1d8+str? That's potentially 2 claws, two rakes, one bite, and potentially 3 spike additions, right?
I hope I'm wrong here, cause that would hurt.
I'm on board for the interpretation in Vienemen's last post, but I'd like to know if power attack counts. Applying power attack damage twice on a single check seems silly (i.e. maintain a grapple, then add power attack on both the armor spike bonus damage and the normal maintain-a-grapple damage). That seems to be the RAW though based on the power attack clause, "gain a + 2 bonus on all melee damage rolls."
Also as an FYI, this build is tailor made for a realistically usable body bludgeon barbarian. Just grapple as standard, maintain as a move via greater grapple to pin, then 5' step towards another enemy and swing away with rapid grappler. It gets even better on the second round since you can maintain and choose the re-position option to get in range of the baddies.