I do see your point, but yes, I do feel you are being a bit hyperbolic in thinking having one commoner rare in a set is going to bring down the whole Pathfinder Battles mini line. DDM had at least a couple unwanted rares (and yes, I do mean plural) for each set and the line survived a long time. And the termination of DDM had nothing to do with not being able to sell unwanted rares.
The reasoning for the commoner being a rare is so those who do not want the commoners, do not get a lot of them.
Besides, I feel we aren’t going to be getting any commoners for at least the first two sets. Commoners wouldn’t be considered as a ‘Hero’ or ‘Monster’ and I don’t anticipate them being done for the RotR set, either.
I for one would love a commoner or two per set. I think that they should be uncommons. We don't need a flood of them, but I think that I would often want more than one copy for each miniature. I get a lot of use out of the few commoners that Wotc produced, and use some of the Reaper metal ones as well, but more would be nice. I like to be able to show where the innocent bystanders are from time to time.
I do think that the idea of creating them in such a way that they can work somewhat interchangably with things like monks, wizards, and rogues is an excellent one. It would be nice to have some more figures who don't have a weapon in hand.
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Because people are willing to pay $15 for a large red dragon (for example) and not $15 for Joe Average human commoner.
Amazing as this may sound, in the secondary market, it is the market that determines pricing. And who said it had to be Joe Average? My example previously was a nice lovely miniature of a female playing a lute. This figure could be simply the show at the Rusty Dragon or it could be used for a player's Bard character. The idea of a monk with arms crossed can be just about anything. Not all the figurines have to be loaded with weapons. I also mentioned an old woman with a staff. This could be an old woman, or it could be a witch or a hag. There are many examples where the figurines could have multiple purposes and thus greater utility for all.
That means that people who purchase cases in order to open them and sell the miniatures on the secondary market (something Paizo.com will be doing as well), will be less motivated if they know that at least one of the rares, the ones that they make the most profit on and allow them to sell the commons at much lower prices, selling them better as well, is basically worthless. You can't sell it for $3 because it is rare, you'll never make your money back on it, but you can't sell it for $15 because nobody is insane enough to pay that much for it.
The fallacy of your argument is a preconceived assumption that such a figurine would be worthless. I would bet a nice Ameiko rare would have quite a nice price tag in the aftermarkets. They may not bring Huge Red Dragon pricing, but they may be very respectable compare to other miniatures in the line.
So they pass on that case of miniatures and wait for the next wave. Next thing you know, PF Battles is canceled. Thanks Joe Average rare commoner, you ruined it for everyone.
Wow! One figurine and there goes the line. Did you not read the post from Cpt_Kirstov where he said the second best selling miniature in the Desert of Desolation set was the Farmer? Paizo is out of stock for this one. I know the Tavern Brawler was popular too. Paizo still has some of this miniature at $6.50 each for a common. The Farmer was a common too. All Paizo has to do is look at there sells of figurines that have the utility of being also a townsfolk and they will see that having one or two will not hurt the set, but will actually help it.
What actually surprises me more in the argument, is that there would be DMs that would not see the benefit of having figurines like these on their gaming table.
Later,
Mazra
Chief Technical Officer
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Am I correct that somewhere or other (somehow I'm not willing to look back through this thread) there was a statement made that preorders would automatically 'rollover' into a subscription? Or that they wouldnt but signing up for a subscription would 'cancel out' a preorder or something?
The following text appears on all of our current subscription pages:
"When you start an ongoing subscription, any existing preorders for products covered by your subscription are automatically cancelled (or have their quantity reduced by one if you've preordered more than one of an item). "Because the Pathfinder Battles subscription allows you to subscribe to multiple cases, it's subscription offering will probably say something more like this:
"When you start an ongoing subscription, any existing case preorders for products covered by your subscription are automatically cancelled (or, if you've preordered more cases than you choose to subscribe to, the preorder will be reduced by the number of cases you chose to subscribe to). "
Does that make sense?
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Chief Technical Officer
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I just noticed under the terms and conditions it still saying not for subscriptions. I am assuming it's just something that missed an update?
We've updated the gift certificate/store credit text throughout the site to remove the bit about it not being usable for subscriptions. (Note, though, that you still must provide a valid credit card to create a subscription.)
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I know this idea may get shot down, but..... what about commoner minis like farmers, blacksmiths, shopkeepers, tavern/innkeeper, waitress, laborers, scholars, sages, aristocrats, town guards, etc. I think those would be insanely useful.
Personally, I would love to have some more commoner-type minis. It gets a bit boring having the whole tavern full of farmers & drunken brawlers. Sometimes its nice to set up a battle in a bar (or village square, or wherever) without having the players know right off the start who the enemy is.
It would also be cool to see a few noble figures. Something that says "I'm the king" but isn't dressed in full plate carrying a sword.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Rise of the Runelords will be getting a re-release as a collector's edition all in one volume, updated to PFRPG rules. This is to celebrate Pathfinder's 5th anniversary and the minis are supporting that release.
Also, Shatterstar, the AP releasing next GenCon will be a sequal to RotRL and I imagine the minis will also be very useful to support that AP as well.
Sort of a 2 birds with one stone release.
(It's The Shattered Star, not Shatterstar.)
At this time, our intent is that *all* of the minis in the Rise of the Runelords set appear in that Adventure Path. Of course, they'll be plenty useful to people who aren't playing RotR as well, as they include a lot of commonly used monsters and character archetypes. (The few that might see more limited use outside of the AP will be rare.)
Am I correct that somewhere or other (somehow I'm not willing to look back through this thread) there was a statement made that preorders would automatically 'rollover' into a subscription? Or that they wouldnt but signing up for a subscription would 'cancel out' a preorder or something?The following text appears on all of our current subscription pages:
"When you start an ongoing subscription, any existing preorders for products covered by your subscription are automatically cancelled (or have their quantity reduced by one if you've preordered more than one of an item). "Because the Pathfinder Battles subscription allows you to subscribe to multiple cases, it's subscription offering will probably say something more like this:
"When you start an ongoing subscription, any existing case preorders for products covered by your subscription are automatically cancelled (or, if you've preordered more cases than you choose to subscribe to, the preorder will be reduced by the number of cases you chose to subscribe to). "Does that make sense?
It does, thanks. Really looking forward to hearing the details. :)
To add yet another unsolicited opinion to the braying pack of incoherent yowl...
I'd like to see some "normal" people minis. That said, I totally get it that it'd be a bummer to someone with a smallish collection finding three Douglass The Chimneysweep boosters in his shipment.
To that end, I have a vague idea. I could live with flexible molds... meaning... is that a rogue with concealed weapons or just a guy in a greatcoat? Is that a monk with empty hand or a civilian hostage?
What I'm saying is that if we had two or maybe three molds (over time) that were deliberately designed to be somewhat ambiguous, I trust Paizo's artists enough to imagine they could work. As it stands, none of the monsters or horribly beweaponed heroes I've got can stand in as commoners. But perhaps a dude with a staff that isn't in a middle-of-combat pose could be just a dude with a staff, instead of Ithigor the Assassin Druid Half-Balor Alchemist.
Am I correct that somewhere or other (somehow I'm not willing to look back through this thread) there was a statement made that preorders would automatically 'rollover' into a subscription? Or that they wouldnt but signing up for a subscription would 'cancel out' a preorder or something?The following text appears on all of our current subscription pages:
"When you start an ongoing subscription, any existing preorders for products covered by your subscription are automatically cancelled (or have their quantity reduced by one if you've preordered more than one of an item). "Because the Pathfinder Battles subscription allows you to subscribe to multiple cases, it's subscription offering will probably say something more like this:
"When you start an ongoing subscription, any existing case preorders for products covered by your subscription are automatically cancelled (or, if you've preordered more cases than you choose to subscribe to, the preorder will be reduced by the number of cases you chose to subscribe to). "Does that make sense?
Vic, has the subscription been started up for this now? The way you are talking, it is up and going. Where do I sign up for it?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Vic, has the subscription been started up for this now? The way you are talking, it is up and going. Where do I sign up for it?
It's not available yet. (I did say the "subscription offering will probably say..." future tense and all!)
When it is available, I'll post in this thread (or you can just keep checking our Subscriptions page).
It's not available yet. (I did say the "subscription offering will probably say..." future tense and all!)
Heh, true. :)
I think what I was looking at was the "Because the Pathfinder Battles subscription allows you to subscribe to multiple cases..."
When it is available, I'll post in this thread (or you can just keep checking our Subscriptions page).
Ok, thanks! Will look out for it.
If Desert of Desolation #11 - Farmer is the "guy with the pig" I can tell you it is by far the most sought after aftermarket mini in my area. Other favorites are "dead guy" - which I think is supposed to be some kind of ghost - and "guy on horse". Local stores that stock minis charge charge 5 dollars for those, and 20 for the guy on the horse, and have wait lists for them. Meanwhile there are buckets of half illithid lizardmen for $1 to be had. Sometimes fantastic isn't what sells, the most commonly encountered things in pathfinder are probably townsfolk and goblins, not dungeons and dragons.
Sometimes fantastic isn't what sells, the most commonly encountered things in pathfinder are probably townsfolk and goblins, not dungeons and dragons.
I see what you did there.
:D
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Rise of the Runelords will be getting a re-release as a collector's edition all in one volume, updated to PFRPG rules. This is to celebrate Pathfinder's 5th anniversary and the minis are supporting that release.
Also, Shatterstar, the AP releasing next GenCon will be a sequal to RotRL and I imagine the minis will also be very useful to support that AP as well.
Sort of a 2 birds with one stone release.
(It's The Shattered Star, not Shatterstar.)
At this time, our intent is that *all* of the minis in the Rise of the Runelords set appear in that Adventure Path. Of course, they'll be plenty useful to people who aren't playing RotR as well, as they include a lot of commonly used monsters and character archetypes. (The few that might see more limited use outside of the AP will be rare.)
As River Song would say, "Spoilers." But very cool. Will the miniatures planned for the RotR set be specifically for The Shattered Star or will they include miniatures from the earlier RotR AP Burnt Offerings, The Skinshaw Murders, etc.? And would that Star have seven points? I know....spoilers.
Later,
Mazra
Is there any Pathfinder Battles game in the works?Yes! It's called the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!
We do not currently have any concrete plans regarding a separate miniatures game. Is that something you'd like to see?
I would like to see a Pathfinder Minis game. Not only that, but I actually think it is in Paizo's best interest to create a mini's game.
I understand the reasoning behind the randomization of your Pathfinder Battles line. However, from my point of view, I would not be willing to buy random minis unless I knew I could actually use any mini I ended up with. For example: my players are past the point of fighting goblins and kobolds. Consequentially, any of those minis I purchase would be a waste of money on my part.
However, if there was a Pathfinder mini's game that supported the Pathfinder Battles line, then I could still find a use for the minis my roleplaying group will no longer be using, and I would therefore be more willing to buy random minis. I think Wizard's of the Coast understood this when they developed their D&D mini's game, and I doubt that sales would have been as high without the mini's game to support the sale of minis.
For another example of a game driving miniatures sales, take a look at Games Workshop. I've been convinced for years that GW is a miniatures company first, and a game company second (yes, I've played several GW games). Minis are GW's bread-and-butter, but in my opinion, the minis couldn't exist without the game to drive sales. Due to 3rd party minis, I do not think the reverse is true. If GW minis didn't exist, any orc, goblin, or elf from another company could serve the same purpose. Despite GW's primary income from minis and not rulebooks (For example: the Bloodbowl rules are FREE), the minis NEED the rules, the rules do not need the minis. This is also true for the Pathfinder RPG.
I sincerely hope that you look into the possibility of a minis game, because without it, I don't think the sales of these minis will be as high as the alternatives available from Reaper and other companies. I can't think of any other example of game pieces being sold randomly WITHOUT being supported by some type of collectable card/minis/dice/whatever rules.
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As River Song would say, "Spoilers." But very cool. Will the miniatures planned for the RotR set be specifically for The Shattered Star or will they include miniatures from the earlier RotR AP Burnt Offerings, The Skinshaw Murders, etc.? And would that Star have seven points? I know....spoilers.
Later,
Mazra
all of the RotRL set is creatures from the original RotRL set (updated to PF and released at about the same time in a big book)
James said in the futures of golarion seminar of gencon that, yes, the star has seven points, but they had just figured out a few ways to make it work in a 6 part AP.
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Just as a side note for all those folks clammering for commoner minis reaper has some great ones is their town folk sets. I know they aren't pre painted plastics. There are some great sculpts though and reasonably priced.Here
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Please, please, please do not water down Pathfinder RPG with a minis game.
Why would it comprise a "watering-down"?
I mean, I'm far from sure I'd want to play one, but I'm not sure why it'd mean "watering down" the RPG. To be honest, if it slowed the output of RPG crunch, I'd be pretty happy with it just for that reason.
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Please, please, please do not water down Pathfinder RPG with a minis game.
What if it was tied to the mass combat system, so you could do wars and such, in an AP?
Please, please, please do not water down Pathfinder RPG with a minis game.What if it was tied to the mass combat system, so you could do wars and such, in an AP?
That's crazy talk! War in an AP? I bet that any AP that contains mass combats and war and stuff like that will tank. TANK I TELL YOU!!!!
I know this idea may get shot down, but..... what about commoner minis like farmers, blacksmiths, shopkeepers, tavern/innkeeper, waitress, laborers, scholars, sages, aristocrats, town guards, etc. I think those would be insanely useful.
What about serving the core audience, i.e. the guys who don't play characters that run around killing commoners all the time? ;-P
Seriously, I'm not flat out against them, but they should be a rare thing - and I don't mean the rarity. Maybe one per 60-figure set. And only if it's not a set with boosters containing only single figures.
The thing is for many, commoner figures will be the super-zonks. Think getting another human skeleton is bad? Try getting a barmaid when you never need a barmaid on a battlegrid, ever. So when you getting the "Thanks for playing" figure, it won't be the only one you get.
And I'd much prefer to pay by the mini. Yes, some cost more to produce than others. Well, then have the pay scale reflect that. I'd much prefer to pay for the ones I need than buy a brick or booster pack that contains a bunch of minis that have nothing to do with the adventure I'm running.
I'll ignore the fact that Paizo will be buying lots of boosters for the sole purpose of opening them and selling the minis on the store.
Having WizKids make them nonrandom would probably mean there would be no minis line, or that there would only be a very small selection of minis. If you do non-random, you can only make sculpts you know will sell well, since low throughput will mean higher per-item costs, and if the throughput goes too low, it will eat up your profit margin and even go above the price you could expect to get for such a miniature.
That's why Reaper's/Asylum's Legendary Encounters has less than 40 miniatures after years - Pathfinder Battles will zoom past them with the very first set, and after a year in business, will eclipse them.
I'm guessing that if Paizo ends up producing minis I want that I'll be buying them second hand--i.e. the money will not go to Paizo. Paizo's loss.
Actually, their win. They get royalties for all miniatures except the ones they buy themselves (to sell as boosters, bricks, cases or singles on the store). And, of course, they will earn a lot more with you not buying them than they would with no line at all, or only 10 miniatures a year.
For example: my players are past the point of fighting goblins and kobolds. Consequentially, any of those minis I purchase would be a waste of money on my part.
Well, since you apparently only intent to play one campaign, ever (or the point of fighting goblins and kobolds would come back eventually), you're not really a repeat customer, which makes you a secondary concern ;-P
I think Wizard's of the Coast understood this when they developed their D&D mini's game, and I doubt that sales would have been as high without the mini's game to support the sale of minis.
I doubt that the game made that much of an impact.
I'm still all for a set of miniature rules to go with the miniatures, maybe even one of those with variable minis stats where you buy abilities with points.
I just don't think that those rules will make the sales skyrocket like a goblin with fireworks.
I sincerely hope that you look into the possibility of a minis game, because without it, I don't think the sales of these minis will be as high as the alternatives available from Reaper and other companies. I can't think of any other example of game pieces being sold randomly WITHOUT being supported by some type of collectable card/minis/dice/whatever rules.
As I said, I seriously doubt that such rules will make a real difference and decide whether those outsell the competition.
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I doubt that the game made that much of an impact.
WotC said that one third of their DDM sales was from skirmish. When WotC decided to first, significantly change the skirmish game, and second eventually do away with it, this was enough to begin the decline that eventually lead to Hasbro's decision to discontinue DDMs. I do not know too many businesses that could lose 30% of their business and still remain successful. Let's say that a well thought out miniatures game could generate half, let's go as far to say less than half, of the sales that WotC produced with their miniature game; then that could be 10% of sales. Now that may not seem like much, but I doubt Wizkids would be upset if Paizo found a way to sell 10% more cases. Also, those that played the DDM skirmish game tended to buy full sets and in multiples too to enhance their warband building.
Personally, I don't believe Paizo needs a miniatures game to make this a successful venture. If the miniature are high quality, they will sell. BTW- I sincerely believe a nice sculpt of a Barmaid would sell well. If the sculpt has enough pizzazz people will want it just to have it. ;) (I do agree only one, maybe two of such figurines would be all that would be wanted in a set.)
Later,
Mazra
I doubt that the game made that much of an impact.WotC said that one third of their DDM sales was from skirmish. When WotC decided to first, significantly change the skirmish game, and second eventually do away with it, this was enough to begin the decline that eventually lead to Hasbro's decision to discontinue DDMs. I do not know too many businesses that could lose 30% of their business and still remain successful. Let's say that a well thought out miniatures game could generate half, let's go as far to say less than half, of the sales that WotC produced with their miniature game; then that could be 10% of sales. Now that may not seem like much, but I doubt Wizkids would be upset if Paizo found a way to sell 10% more cases. Also, those that played the DDM skirmish game tended to buy full sets and in multiples too to enhance their warband building.
Personally, I don't believe Paizo needs a miniatures game to make this a successful venture. If the miniature are high quality, they will sell. BTW- I sincerely believe a nice sculpt of a Barmaid would sell well. If the sculpt has enough pizzazz people will want it just to have it. ;) (I do agree only one, maybe two of such figurines would be all that would be wanted in a set.)
Later,
Mazra
I totally agree.
A skirmish game doesn't have to be the primary sales factor. If it is half-way decent, and doesn't take too long, it would be nice to have just to fill in the time waiting for players to get there. If its simple enough, its a good way to get younger people involved in the hobby. I saw a comment upthread that they should sell the rules for every mini together, in a single deck. I think this would be a great idea. Have all the rules in a small book the size of abridged magic rules that come in starter decks, and package 1 card for each mini with the various stats. Release a new pack for each set. This encourages sales of the mini line and creates a new product that I think would sell decently well. I just hope that they don't use rarity as a significant ballance factor.And I would love to see some commoner minis. The problem with commoners is that they tend to not be useful enough, or you need so many of them, that painting them becomes a chore. I want mooks that look good without spending the effort I will go to for an important NPC. This is one of the biggest selling points of pre-painted minis for me, and commoners are something I could use regularly. They become hostages and bystanders at high levels, and can be a significant threat at low levels in something like a brawl.
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Please, please, please do not water down Pathfinder RPG with a minis game.
Just because a minis game is not something you want doesn't mean that it is a bad thing. As others have pointed out, there are a lot of positives for such a product (extra sales revenue, gateway for new RPG players, etc).
I would love to see a minis game for Pathfinder Battles, and I don't think it would water down the RPG in the least.
Why do you feel it would?
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Vic, any plans for sneak peeks of painted masters when they are available?
Thanks,
Mazra
This is most likely something that they have to decide with Whizkids. As has been said in this thread, wizkids likes to keep the contents of the set pretty close to the chest, so that the hype is biggest right before the release, when they do reveal the contents.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I would love to see a minis game for Pathfinder Battles, and I don't think it would water down the RPG in the least.
Why do you feel it would?
The main reason why one would not want a minis game is that it would take time to develop and produce. Every developer-hour spent creating a minis game is a developer-hour that could be spent creating new content for the core RPG line. Essentially, would you rather see a minis game, or another RPG rulebook?
There is also the possibility that people who would be playing the full Pathfinder game would instead play the minis game, reducing the audience for the Pathfinder RPG in general. Though, personally, I don't think that the people interested in a minis game would stop playing the RPG, so I think that argument is not as strong.
Which is not to say that Paizo *shouldn't* create a minis game. But there are some trade-offs.
I doubt Wizkids would be upset if Paizo found a way to sell 10% more cases. Also, those that played the DDM skirmish game tended to buy full sets and in multiples too to enhance their warband building.
Nobody minds higher sales rates.
And I want to repeat that I'm totally for a minis game. I'm just saying that this will not have too much of an impact.
The 10% you mention could be in the cards I guess. Maybe even a bit more. The question is whether it is enough to make them sit down and spend the time to actually write those rules. They have to be decent or they'll be more of a deterrent.
As for skirmish players buying full sets: I'd say that someone into the figures just for the game would not necessarily get whole sets. He'd just get the decent stuff. Though there were always ways to make sub-optimal pieces more useful with the introduction of commanders with useful command effects or warband building perks, there are figures that are basically useless, since others are strictly better than them.
A skirmish player might only get the best stuff, and multiples of those you can actually use more than once (no need for duplicates of a, say, 120 point figure when the point limit is 200. And others might only be useful even with lower numbers)
I'd say it's collectors who want to get whole sets. Of course, people aren't usually just collectors.
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Essentially, would you rather see a minis game, or another RPG rulebook?
Bad choice of comparison, because at this point I'd like most everything rather than another RPG rulebook. With the exception of the occasional bestiary, I think the RPG is saturated.
And the question is: Would Paizo develop that game, or would it be WizKids? Or maybe a joint venture?
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The reality is, Pathfinder RPG is already a minis game if you introduce minis to the game. Pathfinder RPG can be played in the rp/narrative style fully, or with simulationist miniatures, terrain, and area effect templates, etc. Folks--the game already has it all. The awesomeness of having miniatures for Pathfinder RPG is that we'll actually get to see the community playing Pathfinder RPG in homes, gamestores, conventions, and have a chance to participate in the one game that unites it all. We'll keep our common language about the game, and stay united as gamers once again. This is already happening. And, frankly, this reminds of the way the world's oldest roleplaying game had been through the decades. Its a great system with brilliant setting and story-writing. Let's consider, just for a moment, the game we play first, and marketing second. The greatest irony would be to see a gamer audience driving goofy changes as they did in the 2000s, by constantly asking for square pegs to fit into round holes. Pathfinder RPG is the system, and with it, I can already run any mini game I can imagine.
I doubt Wizkids would be upset if Paizo found a way to sell 10% more cases. Also, those that played the DDM skirmish game tended to buy full sets and in multiples too to enhance their warband building.
Nobody minds higher sales rates.
And I want to repeat that I'm totally for a minis game. I'm just saying that this will not have too much of an impact.
The 10% you mention could be in the cards I guess. Maybe even a bit more. The question is whether it is enough to make them sit down and spend the time to actually write those rules. They have to be decent or they'll be more of a deterrent.
As for skirmish players buying full sets: I'd say that someone into the figures just for the game would not necessarily get whole sets. He'd just get the decent stuff. Though there were always ways to make sub-optimal pieces more useful with the introduction of commanders with useful command effects or warband building perks, there are figures that are basically useless, since others are strictly better than them.
A skirmish player might only get the best stuff, and multiples of those you can actually use more than once (no need for duplicates of a, say, 120 point figure when the point limit is 200. And others might only be useful even with lower numbers)
I'd say it's collectors who want to get whole sets. Of course, people aren't usually just collectors.
I question how many wwar gamers you have met, or CCG players.
Every war gammer I have met has bought minis they will never field. Ones that do not work in their army, but are available to them. They get them because they look cool, or becuase it is part of the set, or to just say they have them all.
One friend of mine has a full jetbike squad for Chaos Space Marines in 40k, even though they are one of the worste point costs to effectiveness models he can field, because he can. He has not fielded them since his initial tests with them, which were before he even bought the models. This is $150 in minis he fully painted but will never use.
Annother friend bought every Cygnar Warmachine mini, with like 2 exceptions because they are expensive and he just started. He knows there are a bunch of them he will never field, or will only field for a lark.
Personally, I probably have ~$200 in Space Wolves that I will likely never use, just because they are options I have the potential to.
Many CCG players are the same way. About 1/2 the hardcore players I have met collect full sets, since it just becomes a side effect of chasing the rares you want.
Wargamers are a wierd bunch.
With a skirmish game, I can definetely see a significant portion of people becoming collectors of it, just as a side effect of getting what they want.
Even then if they don't, a skirmish player who collects certain models because they are better increases the value of the line. There is a price point that collectables maintain. When new product is being released, the average aftermarket cost of all models will ~= the price of a new pack. When this isn't the case, people will open packs to increase the number of each model in circulation thus decreasing its price while turning a proffit, or they wont buy packs because the cards in them aren't worth it. Calculations for this assume losses, but with Magic cards people run the to see when it is worth it for retailers to buy sets to open rather than sell as packs. When sets become less common as their print run ends, you start to see prices on unopened packs rise instead of packs being opened to normalize the discrepancy.
If 1 mini increases in price because of people chasing it, if the price gets high enough opening random packs can become profitable. Now, I would not like to see this happen much, because it would mean inflated priced, but it would also help sustain a minis line, which I think is desireable. The trick here would be finding the right ballance in the game and rarities to create roughly even demand. This is of course if you care about minis collectors more than the game line.
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Bad choice of comparison, because at this point I'd like most everything rather than another RPG rulebook. With the exception of the occasional bestiary, I think the RPG is saturated.
Honestly, I think I agree with you. I'm still trying to wrap my head around everything in Ultimate Magic. Still, the point is that doing a minis game would take time away from whatever other projects Paizo has in the works.
But now we're just getting off-topic ;-)
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I'm sure it's going to be years before such a set exists, but I'd love to see the major NPCs and villains of the Kingmaker AP. In the first book alone, there are six or so memorable bandits that would look great as minis.
In general, the timing on set releases will probably never line up well with the APs, though the Rise of the Runelords set might coincide nicely with the Hardcover offering(and feature a number of NPC miniatures that will get some use in Jade Regent, fingers crossed).
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The main reason why one would not want a minis game is that it would take time to develop and produce. Every developer-hour spent creating a minis game is a developer-hour that could be spent creating new content for the core RPG line. Essentially, would you rather see a minis game, or another RPG rulebook?
Not necessarily. Paizo doesn't really have the experience in a straight-up miniatures game, so they'd likely have to bring in a developer to exclusively oversee that line and therefore no development time is taken away from the RPG. That's one possible scenario.
And, as someone else pointed out, if the RPG release schedule had to ease up some to accomodate the development of tabletop miniatures game that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
As for your last question above, it's not a matter of a minis game OR an RPG book. It would most likely be a minis game AND an RPG...just not as soon...
There is also the possibility that people who would be playing the full Pathfinder game would instead play the minis game, reducing the audience for the Pathfinder RPG in general. Though, personally, I don't think that the people interested in a minis game would stop playing the RPG, so I think that argument is not as strong.
Yeah, not really a strong argument. I don't really see that happening, at least not in any capacity to adversely affect Paizo's revenue stream from the RPG.
I'm coming TO the RPG from being almost exclusively a minis games player. I haven't played D&D since around '95. It's been minis and boardgames since then. I just recently have started getting into Pathfinder. While I'm loving the RPG...I'd sure dig a minis game set in the Pathfinder world as well.
A miniatures ruleset, separate from the RPG, would provide a new revenue stream from Paizo. While, either earlier in this thread or another thread entirely, someone from Paizo said IF there was to be a minis game they'd be the one to produce it...it's also a viable option to outsource the game entirely to Wizkids. The licensing fee and whatever percentage of sales Paizo would receive would still be a new revenue stream AND it wouldn't take any development time from the RPG.
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This is most likely something that they have to decide with Whizkids. As has been said in this thread, wizkids likes to keep the contents of the set pretty close to the chest, so that the hype is biggest right before the release, when they do reveal the contents.Vic, any plans for sneak peeks of painted masters when they are available?
Thanks,
Mazra
The problem with this logic is that they are trying to pre-sale cases. In order to do this, they will need to keep revealing miniatures up until the actual release. That strategy worked very well for WotC prior to their purge. But you are likely right it will all depend on what Wizkids can and will do.
I would love to hear from someone with those golem icons. ;)
Later,
Mazra
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I doubt Wizkids would be upset if Paizo found a way to sell 10% more cases. Also, those that played the DDM skirmish game tended to buy full sets and in multiples too to enhance their warband building.
The 10% you mention could be in the cards I guess. Maybe even a bit more. The question is whether it is enough to make them sit down and spend the time to actually write those rules. They have to be decent or they'll be more of a deterrent.
As for skirmish players buying full sets: I'd say that someone into the figures just for the game would not necessarily get whole sets.
They would only have to make the rule-sets once. It would need to be a good game. And I know we are way off topic, but that happens. I had the idea of a skirmish game as simple as one player plays the Heroes and another plays the Monsters. Heroes would be high cost miniatures and there would be few in a typical warband. Where Monsters could be low to very high cost, from a horde of Goblins to a single Huge Black Dragon. ;) (They could even assign factions to some of the miniatures and have Heroes vs Heroes faction wars.)
Concerning skirmish players and full sets, I imagine there were all types, it just seemed that the ones I knew had hordes of miniatures.
Later,
Mazra
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Chief Technical Officer
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This is most likely something that they have to decide with Whizkids. As has been said in this thread, wizkids likes to keep the contents of the set pretty close to the chest, so that the hype is biggest right before the release, when they do reveal the contents.Vic, any plans for sneak peeks of painted masters when they are available?
Thanks,
Mazra
Paizo and WizKids are currently planning how we want to do further reveals for these minis. It's complicated a bit by the fact that good imagery is hard to come by at this point, because we're not yet at the paint master phase, and our experience with the Beginner Box Heroes set has taught us that anything prior to that phase is really underselling the product. But yes, we will be doing more reveals as we get in suitable materials.
The reality is, Pathfinder RPG is already a minis game if you introduce minis to the game.
It's not the kind of game that people ask for here, and it cannot be. It doesn't want to be. It was never meant to be.
Pathfinder is a roleplaying game. The usual play style involves a band of adventurers working together to overcome challenges they encounter on their adventures. The player's goal is to fulfil their quests, while the GM's goal is to engage and challenge them - but not to actively try to defeat them.
It's not meant to be balanced for fights of two (or more) groups against each other where all sides are actively trying to win without a real rules arbitrator.
And that's why PFRPG cannot work for a skirmish game. Too many judgement calls for the rules, too much difference in character power for any given level, too many abilities to have a streamlined skirmish (and many of them are useless in such a contfontation, anyway), no decent, balanced rules for assembling the warbands/armies/sides/whatever.
PFB (let's call our hypothetical game that) would clarify things to the point where there is no need for a GM/referee or anything else, a lot of stuff would have to be streamlined, including creature stats, and there would either have to be fixed abilities for all minis or a robust system for generating creature stats from a codified list of abilities with associated costs.
our experience with the Beginner Box Heroes set has taught us that anything prior to that phase is really underselling the product.
That is interesting - and several kinds of awesome! (For the record, I can identify three for sure, and suspect at least two more.)
For those pictures we saw when you first announced the Beginner Box Heroes (which I gather were digital ones) looked awesome to the point that I was a bit suspicious about whether we can actually expect that kind of quality in the finished product (I might be paranoid, but DDM will do that to you).
And now you say you expect the actual product to look better? Nice!
our experience with the Beginner Box Heroes set has taught us that anything prior to that phase is really underselling the product.That is interesting - and several kinds of awesome! (For the record, I can identify three for sure, and suspect at least two more.)
For those pictures we saw when you first announced the Beginner Box Heroes (which I gather were digital ones) looked awesome to the point that I was a bit suspicious about whether we can actually expect that kind of quality in the finished product (I might be paranoid, but DDM will do that to you).
And now you say you expect the actual product to look better? Nice!
Well I know the digitals that were shown with the announcement of the heroes box were ok, but the images of the paint masters from Gen Con blew my mind and makes me actually want the minis way more. So there's that going for them...
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Chief Technical Officer
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our experience with the Beginner Box Heroes set has taught us that anything prior to that phase is really underselling the product.That is interesting - and several kinds of awesome! (For the record, I can identify three for sure, and suspect at least two more.)
For those pictures we saw when you first announced the Beginner Box Heroes (which I gather were digital ones) looked awesome to the point that I was a bit suspicious about whether we can actually expect that kind of quality in the finished product (I might be paranoid, but DDM will do that to you).
And now you say you expect the actual product to look better? Nice!
The first images we showed for the Beginner Box Heroes set were indeed the digital models. And I'm confident that *anybody* who saw the paint masters at Gen Con will attest that they look significantly better than the digital models. (If you haven't looked at the Beginner Box product page since Gen Con, you should—the ones with the white background are the digital models, and the front-and-back photos are the paint masters. But the photos don't really do them justice.)
I'd mentioned before in this thread that WizKids had told us that the production minis had the potential to be even better than the paint masters. The reason for that is that the paint masters have three types of paint applications: masks, tampos, and freehand details. The process of masking (which account for most of the paint on each figure) doesn't vary significantly between paint masters and production, so the masked bits should be essentially the exact same quality. The same is true of the tampos (which are essentially printed-on details, like the fine gold designs on Kyra's cloak). But WizKids actually made improvements to the masks and tampos after seeing the paint masters, and that's one reason that the production minis can present an improvement over the masters. Also, the few freehand details on the paint masters (like the eyes and eyebrows) won't be freehanded on the production figures, so those details should be more precise and regular on production minis than they are on the paint masters.
Well, just today, we got a set of samples using the preliminary production paint applications, and, as promised, the masks and tampos translated over extremely well, and the formerly freehanded details do show improvement over the paint masters. Across the four minis, there *are* two spots that don't look quite as good as the paint masters; those seem to be an issue with paint thickness, which they intend to adjust. So right now I'd say that two of the minis are a bit better than the masters, while the other two are better in places and not quite as good in others. By the time we see finished production figures, I expect that all four will indeed look better than the masters do.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I just wanted to follow up on what Vic said to add that I am absolutely blown away by the quality of the latest outputs from WizKids, which look more or less identical to how the final production minis will look. I showed them around to the staff, and most of them thought I was pulling their leg or something. At least half of them told me that they thought these were the best pre-painted minis they had ever seen, and I must say I find myself agreeing.
I am confident people will be very, very pleased with the paint quality of these miniatures.
