Paizo printed an item, the Abrogalian Corset on page 20 of Cheliax Empire of Devils. Although described as '...Once ranking among the most spectacular pieces of clothing in Cheliax...' it's treated as a form of armor and occupies the armor slot. I'd like to think that establishes an official precedent...which opens up the armor slot for possible corset item designs, too?...
Nope. Not for a wondrous item. The abrogalian corset is defined as a "(Specific Armor)" in its very title. The entry goes on to describe it as +3 studded leather armor with some additional abilities related to the wasp swarm adorning it. In addition, in the item's construction requirements, it cites "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" rather than "Craft Wondrous Item"...so you're comparing apples to oranges here. It occupies the "armor" slot, because that's exactly what it is...yet, what we're attempting to workshop here is a wondrous item. So, for the purposes of this thread, the corset needs to occupy something other than the "armor" slot.
*I* think this is a chest item and that you should include text that says "This corset, worn under normal clothing or armor, ..." just so things are clear. (YMMV). I think a corset is more akin to a shirt, and thus a chest item, than to a robe, which is an entire body item. One thing is for sure, it is not "shoulders" like a cloak so I am glad no one used that.
Ahh... fail on my part. Chest was not a slot in 3.5, body and torso were.
Lastly, I think fear is misplaced here. Maybe create a snake-themed cloak that duplicates that ability. I just don't see a place for it in this corset without going over the top into SAK territory.
Neil, can you or Clark expand on this a bit more? The difference between SAK and not-SAK is a fine line I am sure. Probably more gut than not, but any advice would be useful and this seems like the thread for it.
Re: Swiss-Army-Knife Items ...Neil, can you or Clark expand on this a bit more? The difference between SAK and not-SAK is a fine line I am sure. Probably more gut than not, but any advice would be useful and this seems like the thread for it.
Sure. Here's my take on it...and it's just one judge's opinion. The others may feel differently, depending on whether they want to sign on as "...what Neil said..." again or not... ;-)
Swiss-Army-Knife (SAK) design is one of the easiest pitfalls to find yourself in. First, I'll refer everyone here for an in-depth examination by Sean and I, as well as some ensuing discussion that took place during last year's auto-reject advice threads. It's important to note that Sean specifically mentions there is a place for SAK wondrous item design. Sometimes, they're warranted. And, generally, when they "work" it's because they're built around a specific theme. But it has to be a tight, limited theme for the judges to view it Superstar-innovative enough to override the negative aspects of SAK design.
What are those negative aspects? It really boils down to glomming on too much stuff to your item. Or, trying to make it the be-all, end-all item for whatever theme you're building it around.
For instance, lets say I'm trying to do a fire-based wondrous item. I might start out by giving it some neat ability to influence normal flames, either by brightening them or extinguishing them. Then I could layer on a fire-based attack form. Maybe the ability to make flames dance and move, sending them into people or places almost like telekinetically moving them around. Then, I might decide I also want the item to protect me from fire. And, later, I might come back and think it'd be neat if the item included a cool teleportation-like effect that carried me out of sticky situations by leaving behind a geyser of flame...or maybe it let me leave behind a trail of flame as I rapidly move with the speed of shooting spark.
The bottom line is that type of item tries to do too much. It's gathering in all kinds of utility-based, attack-based, defense-based, and movement-based powers...i.e., trying to be anything and everything with a fire-based theme wrapped around it. And that's not Superstar design.
Another common mis-step when it comes to SAK items is when you veer off from the theme by including a bunch of completely unrelated abilities. You're not just glomming on extra stuff that makes sense anymore (thematically-speaking). You're throwing in disjointed stuff just because you want an item that can do lots of stuff and act as your Swiss-Army-Knife. It becomes an all-in-one item. No need to make hard choices anymore about which items you carry with you or spend your money on.
An example of this kind of design might be a cloak that lets you fly, shields you from cold, lets you fire magic missiles a few times a day. And, it gives you tremorsense 60 ft. Does it make sense for all those abilities to be packaged together? No. Would it be super-useful to have an item that does all those things in one package? Maybe from a player's point of view, but it's not good item design.
Now, setting aside those two kinds of cases, lets acknowledge that it's definitely worthwhile to give a wondrous item more than a single ability. I happen to think Superstar items that do multiple things which harmonize well (both in flavor and mechanics) often attracts the eyes of the judges. Thus, for the purposes of this design thread on the magic corset from the RPG Superstar panel, we collectively discussed an item that would:
1) Play around with the resizing/reshaping mechanics (a la the compression ability from the universal monster rules), and...
2) Provide some kind of mesmerizing, hypnotizing, charming effect.
Sean specifically alluded to the hypnotic snake from the Jungle Book when he discussed this item, saying it reminded him of how it could slither and squeeze through tight spaces, while also fascinating or mesmerizing its victims. Those abilities harmonize when properly built around that kind of theme. Without that theme (and some decent flavor text to drive it home), the two abilities might come across as an odd mix. And, stacking even more stuff on top of it...such as the fear effect and a bonus to Escape Artist checks...starts to pull it into SAK territory, because it's trying to do too much.
My advice to anyone pursuing wondrous item design for RPG Superstar would be to sit down with a theme in mind. Settle on what your item is going to be (physically-speaking) and then assess what kind of theme you might build around it. Then, write down a list of possible magic powers that could support that theme. Rank them according to what you believe makes for the most interesting and innovative abilities...i.e., cut to the heart of what your item is all about. Then, only pick 2-3 of them and set aside the rest. When you write up your item, make sure you present those abilities by leading with your best stuff. In the case of this corset everyone proposed from the panel discussion, I think the judges were most excited about the compression ability. That's not a mechanic we see lots of wondrous items playing around with...so that makes this item stand out. It might even make it stand out enough that you don't need to add anything else to it. But, in this case, we thought there might be value in adding that hypnotizing/mesmerizing ability...but only if someone could successfully build that into the item with a tight enough theme to make it "pop" from a flavor standpoint.
So, in essence, that's the kind of design you want to strive for when you're skirting the SAK pitfall.
Hope that helps,
--Neil
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Neil, can you or Clark expand on this a bit more? The difference between SAK and not-SAK is a fine line I am sure. Probably more gut than not, but any advice would be useful and this seems like the thread for it.
Think of it as a spectrum. On one end, you have "spell in a can" where the item is literally no more than "use of item x gives you spell effect y." On the other end of the spectrum is "swiss army knife item" which gives you lots of cool effects that does everything an adventurer might want but with little rhyme or reason. So while you talked just about SAK in your question, its hard to talk about one without the other.
Good design lies between those two extremes.
The question you asked, though, is how to keep your item on the "superstar" side of the "swiss army knife" line. The problem is that many people, in an attempt to avoid being spell in a can, create a swiss army knife item.
Of course, some of the published wondrous items don't help, as many of them are simply spell in a can items. And this is a good lesson--we dont want a submission that is the equal of a published wondrous item, we want a superstar item. Many people get sidetracked by saying "well an item in the PFRPG core rulebook is just like mine!" That may be. Not all wondrous items in the core book are superstar items. Similarly, many published items are specifically swiss army knife items--robe of many things for instance is exactly that. Or even a helm of brilliance (which I love, but have to admit its kinda over the top swiss army knife).
Do yourself a favor and check the top 32 from each of the prior years' competitions. That will probably be more helpful than reviewing stuff from the core rulebook.
But back to how to be "not just SAK"...(though I cant resist starting from spell in a can)
I often use boots of speed as an example of how NOT to be spell in a can but still pretty close. Boots give you haste, BUT the boots let you use the haste for 10 non-consecutive rounds at your discretion by clicking your heels. That ability to use haste round by round (up to a total of 10 per day) makes the item different that just a spell in a can. Now, is that difference enough to make a spell in a can item into a superstar item? I don't know. Probably not. But it is instructive design. Use your item to do more than just grant a spell effect.
One obvious way to not be "spell in a can" is to have two effects to your item. Which is why I mention the spectrum from spell in a can to swiss army knife.
But often the problem really isnt the spell in a can-ness or swiss-army-knife-ness, its more the "this item just isnt superstar-ness".
What you want is a tightly designed item that fits a specific theme. That is the core. Find your theme, find the heart of your item. Do just enough, don't over power it. Dont try to put in everything that relates to the theme. Just find a pair of good effects (not always spells) that serve the theme. THAT is how you avoid being spell in a can and avoid being a swiss army knife item at the same time.
For instance, if I make "wind chimes of damnation" that cause insanity as per the spell, those are spell in a can. (for the record I am not influenced at all by the annoying wind chimes my neighbor has in his back yard at all, this is a wholly original creation). Sure, I remove the spell in a can nature of the item if I say "and once per day the owner of the chime may give it a little extra push, which causes all animals in the area to bark like mad, which causes an additional effect of symbol of pain on all listeners within a 50 ft. radius." But all I did was add another effect. Did I avoid spell in a can, yes, by putting two spells in a can. The real failure is that the item just isnt that cool. Did I pick a theme? Yes. Insanity caused by sound. Did I avoid SIAC? Yes, cause I have two effects. Is it a swiss army knife? No, it doesnt do everything related to sound. The problem is all I did was pick two sound related spells and gave those effects to the item. Is that good design? Yes, in that it is better than sucky design. But its not superstar. But if you have two tightly themed powers on an item, one better and one lesser, and both are more than just spell effects--say, spells with tweaks like the boots of speed's tweak to duration--now you are getting to the area of superstar.
But I dont want to suggest this is the only way to make a superstar item. Its not. This is just advice in response to the question of how to make a multi-effect item that is not a swiss army knife.
Yes, that is a pretty subjective answer, I know. I hope it helps anyway.
Clark
See, he beat me in here again. Seriously, that is how it is in the Judges' Chambers too. Dang he is fast.
So, in keeping with fine tradition....
[wait for it]
..."What Neil said."
Clark
See, he beat me in here again. Seriously, that is how it is in the Judges' Chambers too. Dang he is fast.
So, in keeping with fine tradition....
[wait for it]
..."What Neil said."
Clark
lol
...and thanks those were both valuable answers :)
Randomly came across this thread, and figured I'd toss something together.
Obesity Bustier
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3th
Slot body; Price 10,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This lace and leather piece of women’s lingerie fits tightly against the body of its wearer, shaping and supporting the chest and stomach. The visual effect offered by the garment provides a +4 equipment bonus to Diplomacy check during the first twenty-four hours as long as the wearer’s figure is not obfuscated by bulky clothing or armor.
Twenty-four hours after donning the garment, the wearer’s body begins to expand, rapidly doubling in mass and weight. This weight gain has several negative effects: all forms of movement are reduced by 10 feet (minimum 5 feet), armor requiring custom tailoring will no longer fit the wearer’s frame, and the wearer takes 2 points of Dexterity damage which cannot be healed by any means until the garment is removed.
Due to the wearer’s new mass, he receives a +2 enhancement bonus to strength and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus, and a +4 enhancement bonus to Intimidate checks. The change is also so drastic that the wearer is treated as though under the effects of disguise self (DC 11).
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, enlarge person Cost 5,000 gp
Spiritbone Corset
Aura strong enchantment and transmutation; CL 11th
Slot chest; Price 118,000 gp; Weight 1 lbs.
Description
Black scales shimmer like silk on this corset while a dozen bones protrude from its top. Carvings of a human-faced snake with ruby eyes adorn each bone.
Once per day the wearer may activate the corset to squeeze, reshape, and alter his body into dozens of tiny human-headed snakes. The user gains a climb and swim speed 20’ and may fit into any cracks or holes that his constituent parts can. Moving into occupied squares is possible (provoking attacks of opportunity). The user’s gear is inaccessible at this time, but any effects already in place remain. Activating the corset is a standard action and lasts for eleven rounds. The user may cancel the effect as a standard action.
Additionally, the user may activate the corset to create a ruby glow from his eyes and gain a mesmerizing gaze attack. Creatures within 30’ looking at the wearer must make a will save (DC 16) or fail to notice the wearer. These creatures ignore the wearer acting as if he is not there for the next eleven rounds. The wearer may target a single creature with this gaze as a standard action. Attacking a mesmerized target grants it another save. Activating the gaze attack is a move action, and lasts for eleven rounds.
A witch wearing the spiritbone corset within thirty feet of a spirit naga or a hag gains a +1 bonus to caster level as if aided by the creature. If he has the Coven hex, he also counts as a spirit naga for the purposes of joining a spirit nagas’ coven.
Construction
Requirements Craft wondrous item, mass suggestion, swarmskin; Cost 59,000 gp
Obesity Bustier
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3th
CL "3th"...? Someone forgot to proofread.
Slot body; Price 10,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
I'd quibble with the choice of your item slot. Body is usually reserved for robes and vestments, which are full-length garments. The chest is reserved for vests, shirts, etc. I think a corset (or bustier) would fall more into this category...though, I could see an argument for the belt slot as well, since that covers girdles. It all depends on how you're trying to describe the corset/bustier. In this case, I'd say it should be the "chest" slot.
Price and weight seem okay for now.
Description
This lace and leather piece of women’s lingerie fits tightly against the body of its wearer, shaping and supporting the chest and stomach.
I get antsy when an item uses language like "women's lingerie" as it conjures up images more akin to Victoria's Secret than a wondrous magic item for Pathfinder. But maybe that's just me? The good news is that you're starting off your description right by getting straight into what your item is and what it looks like, while also giving us a general idea of its purpose.
However, at the RPG Superstar panel, we talked about the importance of widening the appeal of your wondrous item as much as possible. You've seemingly made this item very gender-specific by calling it "women's lingerie"...and that may put off some player's right from the get-go.
The visual effect offered by the garment provides a +4 equipment bonus to Diplomacy check during the first twenty-four hours as long as the wearer’s figure is not obfuscated by bulky clothing or armor.
First, there's no such thing as an "equipment bonus" in Pathfinder. So, you've fallen into a pretty deep design hole there. Secondly, at the RPG Superstar panel, we talked about the importance of being innovative and making sure your item explored something more interesting than a simple bonus to Charisma...or, in this case, Diplomacy checks. You're leading off with a very boring effect. To be sure, it's an important one in the game...i.e., there are plenty of magic items that do this exact kind of thing among those currently in the Core Rulebook. But that doesn't make it Superstar. You've got to bring something with stronger mojo than a +4 bonus on Diplomacy checks to get the judges interested. Particularly as your lead-off power.
Lastly, how do you adjudicate when a wearer's figure is "obfuscated by bulky clothing or armor"...? Sounds like that's way too open to interpretation unless you invoke some kind of encumbrance rule or cite a specific weight limit to the wearer's armor, etc.
Twenty-four hours after donning the garment, the wearer’s body begins to expand, rapidly doubling in mass and weight. This weight gain has several negative effects: all forms of movement are reduced by 10 feet (minimum 5 feet), armor requiring custom tailoring will no longer fit the wearer’s frame, and the wearer takes 2 points of Dexterity damage which cannot be healed by any means until the garment is removed.
Sounds like a cursed item up to this point. Hence, the obesity effect, I suppose. Stripping someone of their ability to wear their armor isn't really all that cool. And, how exactly does one define "armor requiring custom tailoring"...? There's no game definition for that. You're leaving it open to GM (and player) interpretation. And that's never good from a design perspective, because it can wind up causing arguments at the table. Or, at the very least, the GM has to decide which armors require custom tailoring and add that as a column to the equipment list. Does full plate require it? Probably. Does chainmail require it? Maybe. Which armor doesn't require it? I'm unaware of the super-stretchy kind. So, I'm guessing they all do. Other GMs (and players) might disagree. Hence, the conundrum this item presents...
Secondly, I'm not certain why you want to classify the obesity effect as taking "2 points of Dexterity damage." Suffering ability damage is one thing. Just saying it lowers his Dextery by 2 is another. When you read the text for the enlarge person spell (which you've designed this item around), it doesn't indicate the target suffers Dexterity damage. Instead, they take a -2 size penalty to Dexterity. You'd have been better off referencing that kind of language.
Due to the wearer’s new mass, he receives a +2 enhancement bonus to strength and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus, and a +4 enhancement bonus to Intimidate checks.
Aside from the fact that all these mechanical benefits fall into the trap of being boring, simple, non-innovative effects...you've forgotten to uppercase your Strength bonus. Normally, enlarge person grants a size bonus to Strength (but not Constitution), so that seems odd. Granted, maybe you were going for a wider and heavier enlargement without an increase in height. Still, it's something you've got to consider when you examine the effects of what an enlarge person effect is supposed to do, mechanically-speaking. Secondly, it seems odd to see an enhancement bonus to Intimidate checks just because someone gets fatter. It probably should be a competence bonus since you're boosting a skill check.
Your bigger problem here is that you're not being innovative enough to warrant a shot at the Top 32. It's essentially a Swiss-Army-Knife of varied power-ups (with some offsets). You're also trading out the loss of the wearer's custom-fit armor for a +4 natural armor bonus...so it's the drawback that isn't really a drawback (depending on what kind of armor you're having to forego to use this item). Then, you've got some ability bonuses (and one penalty) along with a couple of skill bonuses. And that's pretty much it. Nothing innovative or interesting here (despite the implied flavor) to view this item as Superstar material.
The change is also so drastic that the wearer is treated as though under the effects of disguise self (DC 11).
You forgot to italicize your spell name here. It should be disguise self. And this is yet one more ability on top of the Swiss-Army-Knife utility of this item...and, in addition, it's just a Spell-in-a-Can. So, this doesn't actually improve things in terms of evaluating it for the Keep pile.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, enlarge person Cost 5,000 gp
You need to italicize enlarge person here. Your price/cost ratio looks good. In terms of pricing this item compared to what it can do, I think it's hard to measure. And, if I add everything up, it probably should come to more than a 10,000 gp item considering it gives you a net +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, +4 natural armor bonus, continuous disguise self, and a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks...while only giving up -2 Dexterity, your custom-fit armor, and your dignity while wearing it.
So, all in all, you need to go back to the drawing board. Read back through the auto-reject advice so you can get a sense of what a Swiss-Army-Knife and Spell-in-a-Can item looks like...and avoid it. Give it another go once you're trained up.
My two cents,
--Neil
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Spiritbone Corset
Aura strong enchantment and transmutation; CL 11th
You're good here.
Slot chest; Price 118,000 gp; Weight 1 lbs.
The 118,000 gp price tag raises an eyebrow here, but I'll evaluate that further as I look into what your item can do. Everything else in this section makes good internal sense.
Description
Black scales shimmer like silk on this corset while a dozen bones protrude from its top. Carvings of a human-faced snake with ruby eyes adorn each bone.
Again, good descriptive text. You're certainly invoking the snake-like quality of the corset we discussed at the RPG Superstar panel. And, by making them human-faced snakes, you're diving right into your naga association. So, I'm liking where it's going so far.
Once per day the wearer may activate the corset to squeeze, reshape, and alter his body into dozens of tiny human-headed snakes. The user gains a climb and swim speed 20’ and may fit into any cracks or holes that his constituent parts can. Moving into occupied squares is possible (provoking attacks of opportunity). The user’s gear is inaccessible at this time, but any effects already in place remain. Activating the corset is a standard action and lasts for eleven rounds. The user may cancel the effect as a standard action.
Okay. The good: you're leading off with your item's strongest ability. This is what this item does. This is what it's about. This is why a wizard crafted it and why a player would want it. You've also gone the extra mile in defining every mechanical aspect of becoming dozens of tiny snakes. The bad: Unfortunately, I think it's a mistake to go with a straight up swarm effect to define this item's ability to "squeeze down" and slip through tight spaces. Granted, a swarm can do exactly that. But this smacks more of a Monster-in-a-Can, because taking on swarm traits is much bigger than a singular access to a universal monster ability like "compression" from the Bestiary 2.
Frankly, the compression idea is what interested the judges the most from the RPG Superstar panel discussion. Why? Because it's a relatively new rule and ability provided to a handful of monsters in the Bestiary 2. And, there are no other wondrous magic items that give that kind of ability. Thus, as judges, if we were faced with two different corset ideas...one granting swarm traits vs. one using the compression ability...we'd choose the compression corset, because it's more innovative in playing around with the new rules introduced specifically for the Pathfinder RPG.
It's also more limited. Compression carries with it a very specific set of in-game mechanical effects that are easier to tweak so your item doesn't just duplicate a monster ability (thereby avoiding the more outright Monster-in-a-Can tag). Whereas, introducing swarm traits carries a much larger host of mechanical considerations beyond just squeezing through tight spaces.
Additionally, the user may activate the corset to create a ruby glow from his eyes and gain a mesmerizing gaze attack. Creatures within 30’ looking at the wearer must make a will save (DC 16) or fail to notice the wearer.
Some stylistic problems here. Never...ever...use 30' to designate a range. You should always say "30 feet" or "30 ft." So, break that habit right away. Secondly, you forgot to capitalize your Will save. So, make doubly sure you check these things as you're putting them in your text. You want to reference game language exactly the way it appears in a real, published item. If you can do that, it shows you've got the professional chops right away to the judges. So, we feel a lot safer giving you the nod over an equally innovative item when we're comparing submissions from the Keep folder.
One thing I didn't see in this section was how often the mesmerizing gaze can be invoked. Seemingly, at-will? Or did you mean to make it once per day like the swarm effect? If it's at-will, I think your mesmerizing gaze outstrips your swarm effect and should be elevated as your item's primary power. And, personally, from the RPG Superstar panel discussion I felt like the "squeezing down" effect of a wondrous corset item would be its main draw. So, don't steal its thunder with a greater effect that's supposed to be the secondary ability of the item.
These creatures ignore the wearer acting as if he is not there for the next eleven rounds. The wearer may target a single creature with this gaze as a standard action. Attacking a mesmerized target grants it another save. Activating the gaze attack is a move action, and lasts for eleven rounds.
Another stylistic thing here. You keep having to say "eleven rounds" because you're tying this effect directly to your implied caster level (CL 11th) and the mass suggestion spell. It's okay to deviate from that. Calling out eleven rounds over and over again is kind of off-putting (to me, at least). First, when you get to numbers in double digits, you're better off just saying "11"...and, by spinning this item with a different duration than the exact duration of the spell, it'll help you avoid the Spell-in-a-Can comparisons. I might even suggest a random determination on it. Say, 2d6 rounds? That way, it's definitely not functioning just like the spell. It would also allow you to call out the duration of the effect in your first sentence and then cut it from the latter one.
A witch wearing the spiritbone corset within thirty feet of a spirit naga or a hag gains a +1 bonus to caster level as if aided by the creature. If he has the Coven hex, he also counts as a spirit naga for the purposes of joining a spirit nagas’ coven.
I notice that you've switched from 30' to "thirty feet" now. So, you've got some internal inconsistency with how you're presenting this information. When talking about ranges, go with "30 feet" or "30 ft." Next, I can appreciate that you're giving a greater boon to witches with this item. A +1 CL is a nice add-on effect to have that isn't just a skill bonus. However, the iconic witch is female. So, you should refer to her as a "she" in your text. Lastly, I'm not sure where you're getting the spirit naga coven idea from. The text from a spirit naga's description mentions:
Spirit nagas occasionally band together in small groups-—some seeming to mimic the covens of hags. While a particular plot or foe might bring these deadly serpents together for a short time, spirit nagas are loyal only to themselves, and such alliances always end in deadly betrayal.
Emphasis mine. Nowhere in this description do you find that spirit nagas actually form witch covens. They have no access to the hag spell-like abilities granted by a coven. They aren't cited in the witch's descriptive text where the coven hex ability gets explained. So, in my opinion, it has to be a hag, and a spirit naga wouldn't suffice. Thus, the notion that this corset enables a witch to join a spirit naga coven doesn't work for me.
Additionally, it seems exceptionally odd to me that a witch wearing this spiritbone corset would gain a +1 CL just by standing near a hag or spirit naga. What if the creature is an enemy? Why would the item somehow gain a boost from their presence when you've hinted that it's more of a cooperative magic effect? The way you've worded it here, it just doesn't come across as very realistic. I think you'd have been better off just indicating the item granted a witch a free coven hex (which should be lowercase, by the way, when you reference it as a class ability in your text) and layer on a +1 CL to any of the hag spell-like abilities cast by the coven. That would allow you to cut out the confusing proximity element and take a bit of the focus off of spirit nagas.
Unfortunately, your item is pretty heavily weighted toward a spirit naga association. So, tacking on the coven element and associating it just with hags might clash with the theme of your item. I'd recommend looking for ways to shore that up by widening things out a bit (even if it requires renaming the item and avoiding the overwhelming spirit naga flavor). Or, drop this ability in its entirety so you can stick directly to your spirit naga theme.
Construction
Requirements Craft wondrous item, mass suggestion, swarmskin; Cost 59,000 gp
Another presentation problem with your feat name. It should be "Craft Wondrous Item" in all caps. Everything else is properly displayed here. Your price/cost ratio is correct. Your spell selections make internal sense, though I'd favor ditching the swarmskin explanation and going with reduce person and a compression ability over actual swarm-like traits.
I'm also a little concerned about the price. Becoming a snake swarm once per day...plus having access to a relatively weak DC 16 mesmerizing gaze...and gaining a +1 CL with the very specific requirement of having to stand within 30 feet of a spirit naga or hag...seems like very little to coax a player into parting with enough money to buy this thing at 118,000 gp. Which items did you compare this to on the wondrous item list to feel good about that price? For less than 118,000 gp, you can buy a lot of potent stuff. Anything from an ability boosting manual or tome (+4) to a headband or belt boosting two abilities (+6)...or any magic staff except the two most expensive in the book.
In addition, to even afford a 118,000 gp item, a PC would have to be at least 14th level. Are 14th level characters going to be concerned with buying or crafting this item when they can already do many of those same effects with their daily spell allotment, scrolls, wands, and staves? Would the adversaries they face at CR 14 and above be significantly affected by a DC 16 gaze attack or have trouble following after them if they adopted a snake-like swarm form? Unlikely. So, in terms of the art of pricing this item, I think it may be overpriced compared to what it can do.
My two cents,
--Neil
With a better name, and a simplified set of mechanics, I present the revised sinuous corset. I'm a little worried I overshot it in the other direction, but what do people think of this?
Sinuous Corset
Aura faint enchantment, transmutation; CL 5th
Slot chest; Price 7,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This black snakeskin corset features an elaborate eye-like pattern on the back, accentuated by the leather thongs used to tie it closed. It does more than cinch one's waist however. As a standard action, the wearer is able to draw tight the strings of the corset, transforming into a snakelike version of themselves.
In this form, the wearer's arms, legs and held items disappear into the body. This prevents the wearer from being able to use items, natural attacks (except bite), or cast spells with somatic components. Instead, they are treated as a Medium creature with the compression ability, and gain a +8 competence bonus to Escape Artist checks. The wearer may return to normal as a swift action, provided they are in a space large enough to do so.
In addition, at any time while in this form the wearer gains the ability to sway back and forth in a rhythmic, hypnotic pattern. As a full-round action, the wearer may begin or maintain this motion, fascinating up to 10 HD of creatures able to see her, unless they make a DC 12 Will save to resist. Creatures that pass their saves must make new saves each round to resist becoming fascinated, so long as the wearer continues to sway. Creatures actively in combat gain a +2 bonus on their saving throw to resist.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape I, hypnotism; Cost 3,500 gp
A bunch of stuff.
Thank you for your critique. Allow me to explain.
That being said, it was put together with the idea of the character who wants a mechanical element to his or her obesity - as achieved through a magic item. I settled on a bonus to Str and Con, a Dex penalty, a speed penalty, an Intimidate bonus, and a natural armor bonus.
The name was designed around subtle consonance and a form of morphic assonance. That's why I strayed from the 'corset' and into the 'bustier' - which is purely poetic conceit on my part.
I concede on the slot. The decision was based on that which the item effects more so than that upon which the item is worn - which is a mechanical conclusion without inarguable precedent.
It seems to me that most people would consider corsets to be feminine items. I was willing to dive head first into that and call it a women's garment. I intentionally used 'he' as my gender qualifier in the item description, however, in hopes to tackle the confusion.
I included the mention of armor because, as per the description of full-plate armor in the Core Rulebook: "Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith [...]". That was to indicate that the changes to the body would render such customization moot - of course, one could simply have their armor refitted as though it was 'captured' armor.
I strongly considered making disguise self a requirement for the item, but I couldn't justify it from the perspective that the 'disguise' is a byproduct and not the purpose. Since the spell description states that the caster can make themselves 'look fat', I figured that actually being obese would have the same effect. In other words, the subject is as unrecognizable as they would be had they used the spell.
Finally, my last point is that of Dex damage as opposed to a simple penalty - because I considered this before including it as part of the item. I was shooting for the effect of entropy. After removing the bustier, it takes to body a while (as per guidelines about healing ability damage) to get back into shape. Clearly, the process is much faster for an adventurer than it would be for someone in the real world, but it was the simplest way to include that particular piece of flavor.
Thank you again.
As a comment on the health thing, I can say one major reason GMs don't allow players to play seriously sick character is because, well, they're not as fun. If you were fat enough to be beyond the limits of handwaving it, you wouldn't actually get any sort of bonus to str or con. You'd probably get a penalty because that's unhealthily fat. Would you want to play an adventurer who cannot adventure normally?
Some systems - like 3.5e flaws, or GURPS, do have obesity rules. In both systems, they result in you getting more options as a trade off. Nowhere in Pathfinder is there this no system of this sort. Yet at least.
That said, if you want to play a particularly large character, just do so.
Sinuous Corset
Take two...
Aura faint enchantment, transmutation; CL 5th
Mostly works. When you've got two different auras, list them with an "and" between them. So, make it "faint enchantment and transmutation"...
Slot chest; Price 7,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
You're good.
Description
This black snakeskin corset features an elaborate eye-like pattern on the back, accentuated by the leather thongs used to tie it closed. It does more than cinch one's waist however. As a standard action, the wearer is able to draw tight the strings of the corset, transforming into a snakelike version of themselves.
Good initial descriptive text with a short lead-in to the transformative element of it. Smart move to sell us that before diving into your mechanical explanations for what the snakelike element imparts to the wearer.
In this form, the wearer's arms, legs and held items disappear into the body. This prevents the wearer from being able to use items, natural attacks (except bite), or cast spells with somatic components.
This is a potent nerf, both for martial PCs and spellcasters (unless they've acquired the Still Spell feat). This is an elegant way of helping scale back an item to balance its power in relation to its cost. Well done here.
Instead, they are treated as a Medium creature with the compression ability, and gain a +8 competence bonus to Escape Artist checks. The wearer may return to normal as a swift action, provided they are in a space large enough to do so.
You've led off with the power I believe most of the judges saw as this item's primary schtick. That's good. I don't see you calling out any limitations on how often the wearer can assume snake-form. You might want to specify that somewhere around the same time you tell us it takes a standard action to invoke. I'm assuming it's at-will, but I could see a case for limiting it to 3 times/day, if you wanted to scale it down a bit.
You could also charge the item and make the compression ability the least costly effect (in terms of using charges), while making its other effects use up more of them. But, since your other effect is dependent upon being in this snake-form, that would be harder to pull off. Your call on how (or if) you'd want to tweak it.
At this point, I also don't mind the +8 competence bonus on Escape Artist checks. It's thematically-appropriate and you slipped that in right alongside the unveiling of the compression ability. Rather than taking on elements of Swiss-Army-Knife design, this works for me. It hangs together without seeming to glom on too many abilities.
In addition, at any time while in this form the wearer gains the ability to sway back and forth in a rhythmic, hypnotic pattern.
Here, I think you're overreaching a bit. I don't like the "at any time" element of this ability. I think you'd be better served to drop that down to a certain number of times per day. Otherwise, this effect threatens to overtake the compression ability as the item's primary power. My recommendation would be to find the core seed of your item and make sure you set that up as it's most useful, primary ability. The easiest way of doing that is to say it can be done at-will. Then, if you layer on additional abilities (i.e., secondary effects), make sure they're available slightly less often.
As a full-round action, the wearer may begin or maintain this motion, fascinating up to 10 HD of creatures able to see her, unless they make a DC 12 Will save to resist. Creatures that pass their saves must make new saves each round to resist becoming fascinated, so long as the wearer continues to sway. Creatures actively in combat gain a +2 bonus on their saving throw to resist.
You've done some really good things here to distinguish this ability from the hypnotism spell. Normally, it only affects 2d4 HD of creatures. You've gone with 10 HD (which is the cap for hypnotic pattern as opposed to hypnotism). You've also made it so that even those who make their save have to keep making a new save each round (which is much more potent than hypnotism). Granted, it's a relatively easy save DC (i.e., according to the Wealth By Level tables, you'd be at least 5th level when you acquired/bought/made this item, which means you'd be facing CR 5 to CR 7 encounters most of the time, and monsters in that range would make a DC 12 Will save probably more than half the time...especially if this item is used in combat and they receive the +2 bonus to resist). So, it's mostly balanced, I think.
I'm still a little worried that this ability is usable at-will. I'd probably nerf that back down to 3 times/day or even once/day. And, I'm a little worried that the save DC might be too low to accomplish much on the battlefield...and, let's face it, if you have to transform into this half-snake, naga-like thing to use this power, most people are going to assume it's a combat situation anyway. So, I might recommend kicking up your DC a little by associating it with a higher level spell...maybe hypnotic pattern or even rainbow pattern (by giving the snake scales an iridescent quality)...but then, consider dropping the need to force everyone around you to keep making saves against the effect if they initially resist it. Somewhere in this ability, there's a game-breaking line you don't want to cross. Playtesting the item in various CR-appropriate encounters might be a worthwhile exercise just to be sure.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape I, hypnotism; Cost 3,500 gp
Perfect presentation here. Price/cost ratio is correct. Your spell choices are mostly appropriate. The beast shape I is necessary to help explain gaining the mostly snakelike form, as alter self and reduce person (i.e., the spells we discussed at the RPG Superstar panel) wouldn't go far enough to explain that kind of effect. So, smart decision to go with that. Snakes don't actually get the compression ability though...so you might still want to layer on reduce person. That would help explain the arms and legs shrinking into the snake-form while providing a stronger basis for the compression effect. But that's a small nit to pick.
Overall, this is a pretty strong submission. Aside from what I've mentioned above, the only other thing I'd like to see you examine is that part about them being able to return to normal as a swift action (shouldn't it be a standard action just like the initial transformation?) and the part about "as long as they're in a space large enough to do so." What happens if they're not? Does the item just fail to work? Do they expand as far as they can and suffer some nonlethal damage? Or do they have a chance to make a Strength check and burst any enclosures similar to the way enlarge person works? It looks like you've got over 40 words left, so you could probably use a few of those to give a short explanation of that situation.
Other than that, you're definitely on the right track. This item would get some discussion from the judges. Possible inclusion in the Keep pile. From there, elevation into the Top 32 would depend on what else we saw in terms of creative ideas and innovative mechanics alongside it. The sinuous corset just might "squeeze" it's way in there. And from that point, it's anybody's game...
My two cents,
--Neil
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Great audio track of the talk! With all that advice, I thought I better give this bad boy a try...
Corset of Ophidian Undulation
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot chest; Price 5,000 gp; Weight –
DESCRIPTION
These tight-fitting snakeskin garments, which can be worn under normal clothes and armour and come in a variety of patterns and designs representing different breeds of snakes, bestow the wearer with the ability to contort and undulate in a serpentine manner. The wearer of the corset gains the compression Special Quality, as well as a +2 competence bonus on Escape Artist and Stealth checks, but only as long as they are holding their breath (see Suffocation on page 445 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook). Wearers with no need to breathe cannot use this aspect of the Corset. In addition, by performing a mesmeric, undulating, dance the wearer can attempt to change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with Perform (dance) in place of Diplomacy.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, alter self, cat’s grace; Cost 2,500gp
As a comment on the health thing, I can say one major reason GMs don't allow players to play seriously sick character is because, well, they're not as fun. If you were fat enough to be beyond the limits of handwaving it, you wouldn't actually get any sort of bonus to str or con. You'd probably get a penalty because that's unhealthily fat. Would you want to play an adventurer who cannot adventure normally?
(Spoiler so as not to step on the toes of those submitting corset designs)
There are precedents in fiction - even D&D fiction - of characters who are at least partially defined by their flaws. Raistlin Majere comes to mind immediately. Even the Pathfinder Bestiary includes the occasional monster who could use a diet. The Con boost was added for the same reason that it takes more poison to kill an elephant than it does a man - the reflect the significance of mass on those kinds of substances. Within reason, fat can act almost like muscle, hence the Str boost. Let's not forget about sumo wrestlers, after all - an entire martial arts style predicated on the mass of the combatants.
I'm ultimately not trying to argue that obese characters should make up a large portion of the adventuring community. I simply lament any instance in which an option is unavailable that may be appropriate to a particular concept. Indicating that most players wouldn't want to do something suggests that some players will.
(Spoiler so as not to step on the toes of those submitting corset designs)
Spoiler:I agree that in most cases a player won't choose to play a character with obesity, degenerative disease, or any number of serious health concerns. But that's only most cases. I had a particular player who intentionally shot himself in the foot with every character he ever created for my games. He tended towards low Con scores because he smoked cigarettes at the gaming table, and wanted to play smokers. He emphasized flaws in judgement and role playing (the character developing kind, not the disruptive kind) unique to his characters. Honestly, I learned a lot about creating engaging NPCs from the way he put his characters together, and in particular the way he capitalized on flaws.
There are precedents in fiction - even D&D fiction - of characters who are at least partially defined by their flaws. Raistlin Majere comes to mind immediately. Even the Pathfinder Bestiary includes the occasional monster who could use a diet. The Con boost was added for the same reason that it takes more poison to kill an elephant than it does a man - the reflect the significance of mass on those kinds of substances. Within reason, fat can act almost like muscle, hence the Str boost. Let's not forget about sumo wrestlers, after all - an entire martial arts style predicated on the mass of the combatants.
I want to start off by saying that I wish more players had the attitude towards role-playing that your smoker friend does. It gets really tiring dealing with every player being a super B.A.M.F. But I do disagree with some of your reasoning behind your obesity bustier .
Dirlaise, I agree that flawed characters are more interesting, both in literature and RPGs. In fact, I don't think that anyone will disagreed. But there is a difference between encouraging players to make interesting characters and rewarding your player with a bra that makes them fat.
Are there obese adventurers? Yes (Mirt the Moneylender, a.k.a. Mirt the Merciless jumps to mind). Do you need to represent this mechanically? I don't really think so. Sure, it can take more poison to kill a larger human but does it take more or less poison to kill someone of equal weight but a higher body fat percentage? Which ability score determines body fat? Someone that is overweight generally can't run as far or perform physically demanding tasks for as long, implying a penalty to Con. Someone with extra weight can't lift as much, move as fast, or have as complete a range of motion, implying a penalty to Str and Dex. Or does it? The rules don't say.
I think that what you are representing here is role-playing and storytelling, both very important in PF and any other RPG, but something that should stay in the abstract and not try to become mechanics. Some players will want to wear an obesity bustier, you're right, but no one in any of the games that I run. My feeling, and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, is that RPG Superstar is about designing aspects of the game that will have mass appeal while being original and interesting.
And a total aside on smoking...
Thanks judges. I finally got around to a rewrite and felt the item was no longer mine. I was thinking to create something new from scratch to see if I can incorporate those lesssons before the critique, but will save it for the other thread. The 'spectrum' of SIAC to SAK was very useful. Up until this post I saw these as two different areas to avoid, but seeing them together and aiming between them will really help. Thanks again :)
RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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Aura moderate enchantment and transmutation CL 9th
Slot chest; Price 35,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
These glossy, black leather garments wrap around the wearer's lower torso, commonly cinched by a chord of braided hair from the head of a giant or witch.
While wearing a bewitching corset, an arcane spellcaster adds 1 to the save DC of any one spell, spell-like or supernatural ability that allows a Will save, as selected by the wearer. Once the spell or ability is chosen for an individual wearer, the choice is permanent, even if the corset is removed and re-donned. A given corset 'remembers' the ability designated for any wearer it is later re-united with.
The corset also allows the wearer to gain the benefits of any size-altering effect without actually changing size. Thus, a wearer might enjoy the increased Dexterity of a reduce person spell without becoming smaller. In such a case, there is no change to attack bonus or AC, nor any size penalty to Strength. Conversely, a beneficiary of frightful aspect gains a size bonus to Strength, Constitution or natural armor but does not grow larger, and does not suffer a penalty to attack rolls or AC, nor gain any bonuses for combat maneuvers. The wearer uses the appropriate weapon damage dice for his or her current, actual size. The corset only affects one size-altering spell or ability at any time.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, charm monster, polymorph Cost 17,500 gp
Comes in at 246 words. I think if I gave it another day I'd come up with a better name.
Didn't read any entries before I started on it, so my apologies if it's too similar to another effort.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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Just found this thread, so here is an attempt...
APPREHENSIVE CORSET
Aura faint abjuration and illusion CL 5th
Slot chest; Price 15,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This corset is made from a plain material. The wearer is under the effect of constant alarm and misdirection effects. The alarm is only triggered when a creature moves within 20 foot of the wearer and not if the wearer approaches a creature. Once per day, the wearer can select a new object as the target for the misdirection.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, alarm, misdirection Cost 7,500 gp