The Corset Design Thread from the Superstar Panel


RPG Superstar™ 2011 General Discussion

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Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

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Hey, come on in and use this thread to take a stab at designing the corset we discussed at the So You Want to be a Superstar? Panel from PaizoCon.

(here's the forum, with a link to the audio from the panel)

linky linky


Dear Dread Lord Orcus,
It is my view that in the process of tempting hapless thralls into your web of machinations, it might prove helpful if you provide a brief summary of what, ostensibly, is going on for those peons without the time and access to software that will enable them to listen to the whole of an hour long recording. If you're relying for comment on the subset of those cultists who attended a seminar at this year's PaizoCon [Seattle], who remembered what was said (or checked up for a refresher on threads/recordings elsewhere) and who have both the time and inclination to respond, it seems to me that this thread/project may languish in some neglect, unthought of. (Which is always fine, of course, if this is your intention... ;) )

Yours,

Ask A RPGSupersuccubus.


Okay, I'll gladly get the ball rolling...

Boa Skin Corset
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot chest; Price 2400 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This corset is made from the tanned skin of a large snake, and the binding strings are made out of sinew. When the corset is donned, it tightens itself around the torso, uncomfortably at first but quickly transitioning to feeling like a second skin. It can easily be worn under mundane garments without being noticeable.

The wearer gains the ability to squeeze through tight spaces as though they were one size category smaller than they actually are. They also gain a +1 size bonus to armor class that stacks with other size modifiers.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, reduce person; Cost 1200 gp

My Word software is showing it at 120 words. As soon as I can, I'll follow with some discussion on why I made some of the choices.


So I threw this together quickly based on the discussions in the seminar. It does not include many of the elements that were tossed out during the brainstorming (hypnotic effects, charisma or charisma-based skill modifiers, etc.). I went with reduce person rather than alter self as a prerequisite since this quick version didn’t include some of the elements discussed like a climb rate. Faint transmutation and 3rd level based on the prereq spell of course. Chest is the only slot that makes sense, though I toyed with making it unslotted; that would effectively allow it to be worn under other chest slot items like we discussed, but that seemed too powerful for the cost I was working with.

I put it at 2400 gp based on looking at the tables. A +1 AC bonus that effectively stacks with all others is sweet, making it at least as valuable as an amulet of natural armor +1, and definitely better than bracers of armor +1. The squeeze ability is cool, but pretty situational, so I added 400 gp to the amulet price to adjust for the other factors. That puts it in a range heavily populated with other sweet items(handy haversack, boots and cloak of elvenkind, etc.), but I think its competitive.

When it came to the description, I was concerned that having three sentences there would result in burying the lead, which is the cool squeeze ability followed by the nice AC bonus. I went with boa skin in the description because I thought if I went with a more fantastic constricting creature, it might set an artificially high expectation of the power level of the item.

Edit: I justified the bonus to armor class because the smaller silhouette of the compressed character would be harder to target.

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

Clocking in at a mere 109 words, here's my first corset. I tried to go a little bit of a different route with this one, so we'll see how everyone likes it.

Salamander’s Ebony Corset
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot body; Price 90,000 gp; Weight 3 lbs.
Description
Tightly interlocking ebony and crimson scales make this wasp-thin corset appear seamless, though it opens and closes easily at its wearer’s command. The tight corset restricts breathing, granting a -4 penalty to all rolls involving holding one’s breath, but grants the wearer resist 10 against fire and negative energy. Three times per day when the wearer resisted damage from a fire or negative energy source, the wearer may as an immediate action, gain regeneration 5 (cold) for three rounds.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item,blessing of the salamander, resist energy; Cost 45,000 gp

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

And here's a second one, though I don't like it terribly much. It feels a little too bland for a size-changing corset.

Corset of the Titans
Aura faint transmutation; CL ZZth
Slot none; Price 3,000 gp; Weight ZZ lbs.
Description
If not for its size, this whalebone and lace corset would appear at home in any noblewoman’s closet. However, it is more than wide enough to wrap around the girth of even the stoutest warriors. The purpose of this corset, as any, is to squeeze the inhabitant down to a more manageable size – allowing the large warriors to fit into armor never intended to fit them.
If the corset is wrapped around the wearer, the wearer is able to fit into armor intended for any character up to one size-category smaller than themselves. If the corset is wrapped around the armor, the armor will comfortably fit any character one size-category smaller than the armor.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, enlarge person, reduce person; Cost 3,000 gp

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Ask A RPGSupersuccubus wrote:

Dear Dread Lord Orcus,

It is my view that in the process of tempting hapless thralls into your web of machinations, it might prove helpful if you provide a brief summary of what, ostensibly, is going on for those peons without the time and access to software that will enable them to listen to the whole of an hour long recording. If you're relying for comment on the subset of those cultists who attended a seminar at this year's PaizoCon [Seattle], who remembered what was said (or checked up for a refresher on threads/recordings elsewhere) and who have both the time and inclination to respond, it seems to me that this thread/project may languish in some neglect, unthought of. (Which is always fine, of course, if this is your intention... ;) )

Yours,

Ask A RPGSupersuccubus.

Also, people can simply listen to the audio of the seminar we did. I think that really is pretty clear.

That said, we boiled it down to a corset, with change size and/or compression powers as well as compulsion effects. We thought just pure CHA bonus was weak. We didnt like limiting it to females. We liked the idea of playing with the rules for change of size (perhaps only reduce, not enlarge), as well as referencing existing rules for size change such as the Bestiary's compression universal monster rule.

Clark

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Interesting, none of the above actually capture the item we were discussing. This is an interesting process. Keep trying!

I'll be back in with some comments later.

Clark

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

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It's good to see some folks getting started on this one. Like Clark, I'll probably pop in periodically (alliteration anyone?) to comment here and there. For now, it's interesting to see you guys going in some different directions. The corset we discussed at the RPG Superstar panel at PaizoCon focused primarily on a wondrous item that would provide the ability to "squeeze down" so the wearer could bypass narrow passageways for a bit of tactical/utilitarian movement and maybe even an infiltration element to it (for maximum appeal to rogues/bards/witches/spies). It also included the expectation of an enchantment charm/compulsion element for additional manipulation of those viewing and/or interacting with the wearer.

I believe the way Sean described it was to imagine the snake from the Jungle Book which had this slippery, sneaky quality to squeeze through tight places, but also an almost hypnotic effect upon his victims. When we talk about flavor and mojo in Superstar items, this is the kind of thing we often mean. Not the reference to the Jungle Book snake, of course. Rather, I mean these kind of synergistic abilities that seem like they belong together. Wrap an awesome name around it, workable mechanics, good presentation, and some good, flavorful writing and you should wind up with an item that at least makes the Keep folder for us to assess as a possible Top 32. This is your chance here to workshop this item and kind of challenge each other to see who can put together all that in a perfect package.

So, have at it. And we'll advise and answer questions as we can along the way. Maybe by the time we roll around to December, folks can then use this thread as an example of how to build a Superstar-worthy item. That's the end-goal behind our little workshop, at least. Hopefully, it helps everyone in the long run.

My two cents,
--Neil

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Neil, as I recall, someone proposed that it relate to witch hex powers too which I believe got general approval from the panel. I forgot to mention that above.

Liberty's Edge

OK, here's my go at it. MS Word says 137 words. What do you think, gents?
.
..
...
....

Captivating Corset
Aura moderate enchantment and abjuration; CL 8th
Slot chest; Price 15,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This finely crafted leather corset covers the waist area, and is designed to slim the wearer considerably. The highly flattering figure gained by donning the corset famously accentuates the garment’s more utilitarian functions. Once per day, the wearer may alter the memory of a single target, as per the modify memory spell. In addition, for 5 rounds per day the wearer may ignore the effects of squeezing through a space up to half their width, and the DC to squeeze through tight spaces less than half the wearer’s width by using an escape artist skill check is always reduced to 20 while the corset is worn.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, modify memory, freedom of movement; Cost 7,500 gp

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

Ah, I was more working off the idea we were intended to design items inspired by that - not that you were looking for that specific item. I'll go whip another one together then.

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

294 words makes this bigger than both my previous submissions together. However, it is actually the same sort of thing you had been describing.

Cobras Waist
Aura moderate transmutation, faint necromancy; CL 7th
Slot body; Price 30,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This black snakeskin corset features an elaborate eye-like pattern on the back, accentuated by the leather thongs used to tie it closed. It does more than cinch ones waist however, as a standard action the wearer is able to draw tight the strings of the corset, transforming into a snakelike version of themselves, long and thin, legs and arms disappeared into their body but the face remaining intact, though condensed. This form can be dismissed as a swift action.
While in this form, the wearer remains the same size they had previously been, though they cannot use any held items, natural attacks (except bite), or cast spells with somatic components. In this form, the wearer gains a +8 bonus to hide and escape artist checks, and can squeeze without penalty through spaces two size-categories smaller than their normal size.
In this form, the user also gains the ability to sway back and forth in a hypnotic, rhythmic pattern. For each round the user spends a full-round action to maintain this motion, all creatures able to see the wearer must make a DC 16 Will save each round or become fascinated. Fascinated creatures may make an additional save each round to free them. As part of the swaying motion, the user may move up to half their normal base move speed.
In addition, once per day, while the wearer has at least one creature fascinated, the wearer of the girdle may extend an intimidating hood, panicking all creatures the wearer is currently fascinating for 1d4+1 rounds. This is a vision-dependant mind-affecting fear effect.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape II, charm person, fear; Cost 15,000 gp


Half baked idea for a joke item. Have to post it to get it out of my head, otherwise I'm going to spend the next six months deluding myself it's a decent item...
Iron Corset of the Gaoler
Stat stuff: Meh. (I wasn't joking when I said this is only half baked.)
Description: (loosely)
A corset of banded metal on a chain. When fitted onto a size small to large person and the command word is invoked by someone else holding the chain, the corset (and the victim) shrink down so that the victim ends up being between one and two inches high. The victim stays that way for as long as the corset is attached, until the person who spoke the command word again holds the end of the chain and again speaks it. Besides doing this, a more advanced (and expensive) version ensures the victim does not need to eat or drink whilst miniaturised.
Construction:
Meh again.

Phew. That's better. If I were attempting to make a serious item, I might have had a process whereby corsets can be attuned to a bunch of masterwork keys, and it's a person who holds those keys who can activate the command word. Maybe put in a special penalty for persons trying to 'use magic item' to activate it without the keys, or simply block the skill. Anything remotely usable in the concept was probably inspired by Richard Pett's excellent adventure featuring a kobold tribe and a much diminished chain devil...


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

markofbane's Boa Skin Corset is a nice example of the inexpensive, low-level item, while Ronar's Cobra's Waist is more suited to the mid-high level types. Interesting views based on the pricing discussion in the panel.

Not a big fan of "Cobra's Waist" name though... too close to "Cobra's Waste", which is gross. ;p

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

nomadicc wrote:
Not a big fan of "Cobra's Waist" name though... too close to "Cobra's Waste", which is gross.

I'll also point out that we discussed naming wondrous items during the panel and making sure the actual item...or physical object...is somewhere in the name. Is this a cobra's waist? No. It's a corset. Call it that, but put something cool into the descriptiveness of the name to make it stand out.

In other words, if I'm flipping through a book of wondrous items and I come across cobra's waist vs. alluring corset or snakeskin corset, which do you think I'm most likely (as a judge or customer) to stop and read as compared to all the other items? Personally, I'd go for the alluring corset or snakeskin corset over the cobra's waist. That's because it lets me know (right in the name) what the item is...and the mere fact that a corset isn't your typical wondrous item (in terms of a physical object), that's what intrigues me to know more about what it does.

So, keep that in mind as you develop your names. Ryan pointed out at the Superstar panel that he views the name as 60% of what makes an item Superstar-caliber. I might subscribe to a somewhat lower percentage, but it's still very important. I've mentioned in the past that the name is the first thing anyone sees of your item. And I mean that quite literally for the judges. Much like any messageboard forum, we see the titles of each submission as individual messageboard threads. And, in the judging forum, they all come across as titles first, which we have to click to read further. Thus, the first thing I'm going to see about your item is its name. Make it a good one that calls out for me to click it and read more.

Now, that said, a good name only gets you so far. Don't over-promise and under-deliver. In the first year of RPG Superstar someone proposed an item called the spoon of the witch queen. Awesome name. Conjures up lots of images for what a witch queen might be using a magic spoon for...i.e., brewing potions, dispensing poison, afflicting someone with a horrible eating disorder, who knows?! But it makes you wonder and start asking questions which you can only find answers to by reading further. Turns out that item went on to grant some kind of simple skill bonus. Basically, nothing all that wondrous about it. Thus, over-promising and under-delivering. Needless to say, it didn't make the Top 32.

So, be awesome with the name. But be awesome with the rest of your item idea, too. Follow that with solid (if not innovative) mechanics and presentation and you should be well on your way. The corset that we discussed at the RPG Superstar panel has the elements of a Superstar-caliber idea. It's now up to you guys to properly present it, both in terms of flavor text and mechanics. You also need to price and design its construction requirements correctly. And give it an awesome name. Who's up next?

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

Well, I was originally thinking wasp-waisted, and I was going in that direction - but you don't really get smaller by being that shape - so the name is a little bit left over from a previous item.

EDIT: and for the record, I'm not saying that's not a mistake, I'm just explaining where the name came from.

The cobras corset would probably have been a much better name.


Sweet thread! Where is this audio file so's I can listen to what was said at the panel? I may have missed it somewhere in the thread...

As my SO is a corset-maker in San Fran, I would like to point out a couple of things I noticed when reading the thread: Corsets cover the waist, so stating that really isn't necessary; they are laced up in the back, and while it's certainly possible to lace oneself up, getting help is far easier; bustiers are not corsets, no matter what "Secrets" says in their catalog. :) (I admit I've become a bit of a corset snob, so please forgive--comes with the territory.)

Oh, and lastly--corsets are not a "women-only" item! I own one (black leather w/ silver buckles) and have another being made (with tux-like tails!). Just sayin'...

Will this be a full-on contest-type thingy? I'm tempted to talk to the SO about designing a corset around a cool/winning entry... She loves making new and weird corsets. :)

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Jeremiziah wrote:
OK, here's my go at it. MS Word says 137 words. What do you think, gents?

I'll give you some instream commentary on it so far.

Jeremiziah wrote:
Captivating Corset

Cool name. Definitely hints at the mesmerizing aspects of it. Doesn't yet hint at anything that would allow the wearer to squeeze down and fit through small spaces, though.

Jeremiziah wrote:
Aura moderate enchantment and abjuration; CL 8th

Remember to alphabetize your lists. So, for your aura, make it "moderate abjuration and enchantment"...

Jeremiziah wrote:
Slot chest; Price 15,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

Mostly good here. Would a corset weight 2 lbs.? It's not a biggie. I'm just being a stickler for detail (as usual). As I read along and encounter that, a small question pops off in my head about how much corsets would likely weigh. So, I'd do a quick check against something like a vest of escape, which I see has a negligible weight of "--"...so maybe I'd suggest knocking that back down a little.

Jeremiziah wrote:

Description

This finely crafted leather corset covers the waist area, and is designed to slim the wearer considerably.

Slight point of confusion here. You denote "waist area" here and yet the item's slot says "chest"...so, stay consistent with your descriptive text and help explain for those less knowledgeable about corsets where they're actually located on the body. You're not just cinching the waist. It usually tightens along the entire torso.

Jeremiziah wrote:
The highly flattering figure gained by donning the corset famously accentuates the garment’s more utilitarian functions.

This is the point where a lot of folks would make the case for a magic corset increasing someone's Cha score, especially based on this kind of wording. But, typically, magic headbands (such as the headband of alluring charisma) are used for that type of enhancement in the Pathfinder RPG. In 3.5, we had the cloak of alluring charisma instead. The reason it transitioned to headbands (and all the physical enhancing items moved to belts) was to standardize them. Items that boost mental attributes take up the head slot. Items that boost physical attributes take up the belt slot.

It's part of the economy of item slot management. And its important to understand that so you don't go creating multiple items that might stack with one another. Thankfully, the typical enhancement bonuses provided by these kinds of items are already nerfed so they can't stack. Thus, I'll disagree with Clark a little bit here and say that I think a captivating corset could add in a small +2 enhancement bonus to Charisma. As long as that's not the only thing it does, it makes for a nice add-on power to the item. Even so, you shouldn't mention it first. Lead with your best stuff. And a Cha boost isn't this corset's finest power.

Jeremiziah wrote:
Once per day, the wearer may alter the memory of a single target, as per the modify memory spell.

So, this is kind of an interesting direction to take it. When the item came up for discussion, I wasn't imagining it would modify a victim's memory. You've left out the DC for shrugging off the effect, though. That would be a pretty serious mis-step in the mechanical design of your item. So, we'd be inclined to ding you for it in the judges' chamber.

Setting that aside, when we discussed this item at the RPG Superstar panel, it sounded more to me like folks were exploring a hypnotic or charm-based effect for the corset's enchantment powers. The modify memory spell falls in that school of magic, but isn't quite fitting the bill for me. I'm looking for something more here than a Spell-in-a-Can effect. You need something to make the item work differently...maybe as a combination of hypnotism with memory modification? I don't know. Keep playing around with it.

Jeremiziah wrote:
In addition, for 5 rounds per day the wearer may ignore the effects of squeezing through a space up to half their width, and the DC to squeeze through tight spaces less than half the wearer’s width by using an escape artist skill check is always reduced to 20 while the corset is worn.

This one is headed down the right road, but I'm bugged by a few things. You've defined a new concept in terms of a "wearer's width"...and I'm left wondering if that's a new game term or do we have to start tracking the width differences between an elf and a dwarf who's wearing this corset? You need to be careful with this kind of thing. Draw on the actual mechanics already in the game with regards to creature Size and Space if you can. Do something innovative that plays with those things and I think it'll serve you better.

Jeremiziah wrote:

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, modify memory, freedom of movement; Cost 7,500 gp

Some stylistic concerns here again. When you list multiple spells in your construction requirements, you need to alphabetize them. So, it should be "Craft Wondrous Item, freedom of movement, modify memory;..."

In addition, am I the only who finds it ironic that something as constricting as a corset requires freedom of movement in its construction requirements? I'm not sure I like that as much as the reduce person suggestion that came up during the panel discussion. I could see a case for freedom of movement, but, for the purposes of what this item is doing with regards to the squeezing rules, a lesser effect like reduce person is probably all you need.

Finally, in terms of pricing your item, you've gone with 15,000 gp. Let's compare that to other items at that price level on the wondrous item list. For that price, you could get a periapt of wound closure...or two bags of holding (type III)...or a cape of the mountebank and enough leftover gold to buy yourself a magic weapon or two. Does that hold up to the niche (pardon the pun) abilities of the captivating corset? How often would modify memory and the need to squeeze through a tight spot come up in your game? As often as the need for closing your wounds, loading up lots of gear without impacting your encumbrance, or teleporting around a battlefield? Probably not. Thus, in terms of the "art" of wondrous item pricing, you might want to reconsider your design.

My initial two cents on what I've seen so far,
--Neil

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

The link to the forum is a little bit hidden, on the first line below Clark's avatar. I've re-posted it in the first sentence of this post for easy reference.

While I think turning this into a mini-contest would be amazing, the idea of this thread was to have a bunch of people take the idea of a corset with shrinking/shape-shifting powers and a compulsion undertone, partly for people to practice for next years RPG superstar.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

ChrisO wrote:
Sweet thread! Where is this audio file so's I can listen to what was said at the panel? I may have missed it somewhere in the thread...

Here's the thread. And here's the recording.


RonarsCorruption wrote:

The link to the forum is a little bit hidden, on the first line below Clark's avatar. I've re-posted it in the first sentence of this post for easy reference.

While I think turning this into a mini-contest would be amazing, the idea of this thread was to have a bunch of people take the idea of a corset with shrinking/shape-shifting powers and a compulsion undertone, partly for people to practice for next years RPG superstar.

My thanks, to both you and Neil, for the link. As for the mini-contest, no worries. I'll just keep my eyes on any cool corset ideas and, if I like one, I'll see if I can't get it made on the side. (I'm spoiled when it comes to having clothing designed and made. The wonders of dating a costume designer and seamstress...:)

Looking forward to following this thread closely, both for SuperStarness and corset ideas!


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I found this forum really helpful, so I figured I'd add my spin on the concept. Some of my design thoughts at the bottom.

Wormskin Corset
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7
Slot chest; Price 10,080 gp; Weight -
Description
Crafted from the softer parts of a purple worm's skin, this corset shimmers with violet incandescent hues. Accents of black samite and silk lace give the corset a luxurious appearance but it retains a strange, fleshy feel. The laces will automatically adjust their length to fit the corset around any humanoid of Small, Medium, or Large size.

The corset can be activated to dramatically cinch down the wearer's body width, while their skin becomes gummy and segmented. They wearer gains a +3 natural armor class bonus, and can move through spaces as if their size were two categories smaller (including squeezing and moving through occupied squares). In all other aspects, the wearer retains its original size category.

Also, the corset grants the wearer the ability to burrow quickly by chewing through the ground. They gain the movement speed of burrow 20 ft.

The corset can be activated any number of times, up to a cumulative duration of 7 minutes per day.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape II; Cost 5,040 gp

Instead of the snake motif, tried to think up another creature that can pass through small spaces... worms! Which of course, led to the iconic purple worm! ;p From there, the synergistic effects of natural armor and burrowing followed.

Even though its a relatively new idea, based on the PaizoCon forum, I tried to work with the squeezing movement rules but ended up pretty much in the same ballpark as the other submissions. I didn't see too much I could tweak with the rule itself, but I thought the idea of a wormy form slithering around lended itself to include the benefits for smaller sized creatures moving through occupied squares (minor benefit, I know - leave it to the player to be creative in its use).

Pricing and spec'ing the requirements brought me to a bridge, however. The spell beast shape III (5th level) grants the caster the ability to take a Tiny size, as well as burrow 30 ft. Finding a limited use effect for this item but keeping it in the level range where it could be useful was tough - I went with BSII... TLAR more than strict to the RAW. I hope that makes sense.

Star Voter Season 6

nomadicc wrote:

I found this forum really helpful, so I figured I'd add my spin on the concept. Some of my design thoughts at the bottom.

Wormskin Corset
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7
Slot chest; Price 10,080 gp; Weight -
Description
Crafted from the softer parts of a purple worm's skin, this corset shimmers with violet incandescent hues. Accents of black samite and silk lace give the corset a luxurious appearance but it retains a strange, fleshy feel. The laces will automatically adjust their length to fit the corset around any humanoid of Small, Medium, or Large size.

The corset can be activated to dramatically cinch down the wearer's body width, while their skin becomes gummy and segmented. They wearer gains a +3 natural armor class bonus, and can move through spaces as if their size were two categories smaller (including squeezing and moving through occupied squares). In all other aspects, the wearer retains its original size category.

Also, the corset grants the wearer the ability to burrow quickly by chewing through the ground. They gain the movement speed of burrow 20 ft.

The corset can be activated any number of times, up to a cumulative duration of 7 minutes per day.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape II; Cost 5,040 gp

Instead of the snake motif, tried to think up another creature that can pass through small spaces... worms! Which of course, led to the iconic purple worm! ;p From there, the synergistic effects of natural armor and burrowing followed.

Even though its a relatively new idea, based on the PaizoCon forum, I tried to work with the squeezing movement rules but ended up pretty much in the same ballpark as the other submissions. I didn't see too much I could tweak with the rule itself, but I thought the idea of a wormy form slithering around lended itself to include the benefits for smaller sized creatures moving through occupied squares (minor...

I love the flavor text at the beginning! The first paragraph I thought was great (minus a few minor points - don't use "will" etc.).

I hate to ask, but does the wearer actually have to chew the earth to burrow? Where does the ingested earth go (particularly with a constricted midsection)? Does it come out just as fast? The image this ultimately conjured up for me just about had me on the floor laughing. That bit might need revision.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Seabyrn wrote:
I hate to ask, but does the wearer actually have to chew the earth to burrow? Where does the ingested earth go (particularly with a constricted midsection)? Does it come out just as fast? The image this ultimately conjured up for me just about had me on the floor laughing. That bit might need revision.

Haha! No, I left that vague on purpose... :)


Snake Charmer's Corset
Aura faint enchantment and transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot chest; Price 6,000 gp; Weight -
Description
This black leather corset is embroidered with red cobras that seem to weave and sway up the length of the garment. Once per day you may attempt to fascinate all enemies within 30 feet as a standard action. Each creature affected can make a Will save DC 12 to resist this effect. All targets that fail their saving throw become fascinated with you for 5 rounds. If you are not in combat when you activate this ability, all targets take a -2 penalty on their saving throw. Creatures fascinate by this effect must be able to see you. If a creature under this effect loses sight of you (you become hidden, invisible or break line of sight) the effect end. Blind creatures and those without eyes are immune to this effect.
Additionally, while wearing this corset, you gain the compression ability, as per the Universal Monster Rules.
While wearing the corset, you cannot hold your breath.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, hypnotism, reduce person; Cost 3,000 gp

(Word count: 185)

A little bit of the math behind this:
((1 (spell level of reduce person)x 3 (item's caster level)x 2000 gp) + (((1 (spell level of hypnotism)x 3 (item's caster level)x 2000 gp) x1.5 (for being the second spell ability on the item))/5 (for only having one use per day)) - 1,800 gp (ad hoc reduction for drawback of not being able to hold your breath)
So, ((1x3x2000gp) + (((1x3x2000gp)x1.5)/5)) - 1,800 = 6,000 gp

So, let the feedback begin.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Instream feedback for you...

Christian Seubert wrote:
Snake Charmer's Corset

Okay name. I don't necessarily think this item has to have a direct connection with snakes, but it's perfectly fine if it does.

Christian Seubert wrote:
Aura faint enchantment and transmutation; CL 3rd

You're good here. The hypnotism and reduce person effects go hand-in-hand with the faint auras you've selected as well as your lower caster level. Nicely done.

Christian Seubert wrote:
Slot chest; Price 6,000 gp; Weight -

You're good here as well. I'm not going to number-crunch all of the pricing. As Ryan and Clark pointed out, as long as you "don't get it wrong" you're doing fine. This is ballparked well enough for a low-level item. So, let's move on...

Christian Seubert wrote:

Description

This black leather corset is embroidered with red cobras that seem to weave and sway up the length of the garment.

It's interesting that folks want to get very literal with the snake connection we mentioned at the panel. And everyone's going for cobras, which is giving me GI Joe flashbacks. Setting that aside, you've done a good job leading off with a description of what the item is...but you've relied on a passive way of describing it. Instead of saying "This black leather corset is embroidered with red cobras..." try rephrasing that to "Red cobras emroider this black leather corset..." to make it more active.

Also, a small stylistic point that wouldn't be marked against you in the judges' evaluation: when you're typing up an item like this, you don't need to double-space after every sentence. It's a hard habit to break, but in this day and age of automatic fonts on word processors and printers, you only need a single space after sentences now. It doesn't cause a problem with how your item appears here in HTML. But, if you have double-spaces in your manuscript turnover to Paizo, it can cause problems at the layout stage. So, try and unlearn this habit as soon as you can.

Christian Seubert wrote:
Once per day you may attempt to fascinate all enemies within 30 feet as a standard action. Each creature affected can make a Will save DC 12 to resist this effect. All targets that fail their saving throw become fascinated with you for 5 rounds. If you are not in combat when you activate this ability, all targets take a -2 penalty on their saving throw. Creatures fascinate by this effect must be able to see you. If a creature under this effect loses sight of you (you become hidden, invisible or break line of sight) the effect end. Blind creatures and those without eyes are immune to this effect.

You've done some good things here. In some ways, I like that you're going for a straight-up fascinate effect (a la the bard performance class ability). It's slightly different than a simple Spell-in-a-Can enthrall, hypnotism, or daze in that it works differently and doesn't exactly duplicate any of those spells. I also like that you're making it a relatively weak (DC 12) effect, but increasing the potency outside of combat. That's smart design. And, your attention-to-detail on the rules aspects of blind creatures not being affected, line-of-sight being important, etc. are all nice touches.

I will point out that your writing could use some more jazzing up. I tend to stay away from saying "you" in game text. Most item descriptions talk about "the wearer" or "the user" of an item. You're also still using "are" and "to be" a fair amount in here. And, you still need to proofread a bit better, since you mis-stepped on "Creatures fascinate by..." when it should be "Creatures fascinated by..." and "...the effect end..." when it should be "...the effect ends." By shoring up things like this, you can improve the strength of your writing.

Christian Seubert wrote:

Additionally, while wearing this corset, you gain the compression ability, as per the Universal Monster Rules.

While wearing the corset, you cannot hold your breath.

I'm a little disappointed to see this ability come last and with such sparse description. To me, I thought the compression ability would be the "crown jewel" of this item. I don't know that you need to cite the Universal Monster Rules here either. Just call it the compression ability and be done with it. If folks need to know what the compression ability is, they'll look it up in the index and find that it's a Universal Monster Rule. I do like the drawback of being unable to hold your breath. That's a nice touch. I might recommend simply reducing the amount of time you can hold your breath, however, rather than nixing it altogether. And, possibly grant some kind of bonus to the wearer on saving throws which involve the inhalation of poison or gas-related effects.

I'll also point out that you're being repetitive with your wording in these two statements. Try not to repeat the phrase "...while wearing the corset..." since when you read this aloud it comes off much more awkward. Instead, you could simply start your second statement by explaining how the wearer can't hold their breath, since, by definition, the "wearer" would already be wearing the corset.

Christian Seubert wrote:

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, hypnotism, reduce person; Cost 3,000 gp

You did real well here. In fact, perfect scores on following the template correctly. So, other than the minor grammar issues in the descriptive text, your presentation is fairly strong. All of your spell choices fit what you're trying to do with the item. It's priced/costed well enough to pass muster. You're on the right track.

This is one of those situations where the judges might very well keep this item around for further discussion. But, when held up against several others (all of which might have presented their core ideas more clearly and effectively), we might wind up passing on this one in order to elevate something else into the Top 32. A way to make this item pop would be to crank out a more compelling name for it, jazz up the writing, iron out the grammar issues. Then, it may stand a stronger chance.

My two cents,
--Neil

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for the feedback on my pass, Neil - very much appreciated. I did actually know the bit about alphabetizing the fiddly bits, I will simply blame that on, "it was late, I was tired, blahblah", but hopefully I won't ever forget that again and it can help some other folks as well. I'll get back to work on my do-hickie. :-)

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9

Seabyrn wrote:
I hate to ask, but does the wearer actually have to chew the earth to burrow? Where does the ingested earth go (particularly with a constricted midsection)? Does it come out just as fast? The image this ultimately conjured up for me just about had me on the floor laughing.

Totally lol. Very much Mulch Diggums of Artemis Fowl fame. A good read :)

OK not wanting to take too long to get something out there you get a second draft...

Spiritbone Corset
Aura strong enchantment; CL 11th
Slot Body; Price 118,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
Black scales shimmer like silk on this corset while a dozen carved bones protrude from its top. A human faced snake carved into each of the bones holds two tiny rubies for eyes. The eyes glow red when the wearer channels a charm spell or ability through the corset creating a gaze affect. The spell affects each viable target (per the spell used) within 30’ of the caster. Doing this shortens the spell’s duration to 1d4+3 rounds and affected creatures leaving the area before this time become free of spell 1d4 rounds later. Spellcasters with the enchantment school, serpentine bloodline, trickery domain or charm patron use a 1d6 for both durations instead. Channeling a charm spell through the corset is a free action as part of the spell.

Additionally once per day the wearer may activate the corset to change his form as a standard action. The corset squeezes the user popping pieces off as it tightens. Each piece becomes a tiny snake in the image of the carved bone transforming the user and his gear into a medium swarm of tiny constrictors. The snake swarm has a movement and climb speed of 30 feet, and lasts for 11 rounds. Otherwise it behaves as a swarm does.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item suggestion, mass, swarmskin ; Cost 59,000 gp

Spoiler:
I know there is no charm patron, but there should be :)(or if there is, it is not PRD yet)
--hehe not quite following the snake trend, and yet it is!
does the bonus for related spellcasters add, subtract, or neither?
should it be suggestion, mass or mass suggestion?


Corset of Sinister Sisters
Aura faint necromancy and transmutation; CL 7th
Slot chest; Price 11,000 gp; Weight -
Description
Moons, stars, and other arcane symbols adorn this light garment. The corset magically adjusts to fit any humanoid of Small, Medium, or Large size. Three times a day, the wearer can, as a free action, activate any of the following abilities: (1) automatically avoid a single attack of opportunity, this decision must be made prior to the result of the actual attack (2) adjust their size by 1 size increment for 3 rounds, i.e., Medium to Small or Tiny to Small, etc (3) if the wearer has Witch levels, they may use the Coven Hex ability and count the Corset as a Hag for purposes of the Coven and may expend any remaining uses for that day to count as additional witches in the coven. When used in this way, shadowy hag forms mirror the caster while she casts her Coven spell. The Corset may never be used more than 3 times per day and always renews its uses at 12:00am, the witching hour.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have Witch levels, speak with dead; Cost 6,000 gp

Star Voter Season 6

Curaigh wrote:
Seabyrn wrote:
I hate to ask, but does the wearer actually have to chew the earth to burrow? Where does the ingested earth go (particularly with a constricted midsection)? Does it come out just as fast? The image this ultimately conjured up for me just about had me on the floor laughing.

Totally lol. Very much Mulch Diggums of Artemis Fowl fame. A good read :)

OK not wanting to take too long to get something out there you get a second draft...

Spiritbone Corset
Aura strong enchantment; CL 11th
Slot Body; Price 118,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
Black scales shimmer like silk on this corset while a dozen carved bones protrude from its top. A human faced snake carved into each of the bones holds two tiny rubies for eyes. The eyes glow red when the wearer channels a charm spell or ability through the corset creating a gaze affect. The spell affects each viable target (per the spell used) within 30’ of the caster. Doing this shortens the spell’s duration to 1d4+3 rounds and affected creatures leaving the area before this time become free of spell 1d4 rounds later. Spellcasters with the enchantment school, serpentine bloodline, trickery domain or charm patron use a 1d6 for both durations instead. Channeling a charm spell through the corset is a free action as part of the spell.

Additionally once per day the wearer may activate the corset to change his form as a standard action. The corset squeezes the user popping pieces off as it tightens. Each piece becomes a tiny snake in the image of the carved bone transforming the user and his gear into a medium swarm of tiny constrictors. The snake swarm has a movement and climb speed of 30 feet, and lasts for 11 rounds. Otherwise it behaves as a swarm does.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item suggestion, mass, swarmskin ; Cost 59,000 gp

** spoiler omitted **...

Two quick observations -

the spell duration is shortened to 1d4+3 rounds (4-7, average 5.5), but is shortened to 1d6 rounds (average 3.5) for spellcasters for whom the effect might be expected to be enhanced? That seems backwards. Also, what is the cone/radius of the gaze effect - 360 degrees?

"popping pieces off" Off of the user? Arms, ears, head etc. included? Yikes. I think the wording in that sentence should be more clear/explicit. It's a cool effect, and would probably terrify a party the first time it's used. (Bob's head just popped off and turned into a little snake! eek! - or rather "Bob just exploded and turned into a pile of tiny snakes! What's in this rum?)

The next sentence is also not clear - "in the image of the carved bone"? You mean that looks like the snake that the carved bone piece looks like?


Thanks for the feedback, Neil. I'm putting your notes to work right now.

Just a note for everyone working on this, the first definition of corset according to Merriam-Webster is as follows:

1: : a usually close-fitting and often laced medieval jacket

Point being, looks like men would wear this item as well.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Christian Seubert wrote:
Point being, looks like men would wear this item as well.

Definitely. We discussed that at the panel seminar, too. Someone asked about the limiting factor of making an item for RPG Superstar that's too gender specific. Ryan pretty much asserted that it's best never to limit something, because then it has a much lower appeal "in game" as well as from a marketability standpoint...i.e., why include lots of items that'll rarely see play in a book of magic items? Give people what they want, but more importantly, give them what they can use.

So, we went into this little exercise with the assumption that we could be talking about a corset for male or female characters. And Sean gave some examples from their own games at the office where items can see use even if they are gender specific. He also cited certain cultures or religions in Golarion where a corset could see use for men and women. Thus, widen your appeal as much as you can.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

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Curaigh wrote:
Spiritbone Corset

Spiritbone, huh? Interesting spin, considering corsets have often been manufactured using whalebone. I'm curious to see where this one goes...

Spoiler:

Curaigh wrote:
Aura strong enchantment; CL 11th

Strong enchantment for the mass suggestion effect makes sense. Why no transmutation effect for the equally powerful swarmskin? Your caster level (for either spell in the construction requirements) is appropriate.

Curaigh wrote:
Slot Body; Price 118,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

Lowercase your slot...should be "body" basically. Price seems quite high, but seeing as how it can magnify so many charm spells, maybe it's warranted? This is one of those items that's very hard to price, because there's very little to compare it against.

Weight is a bit heavy for what I'd assumed a corset would be. But what do I know? It's not like I've ever worn one. Generally, I'd expect it to have the same weight as a vest of escape or druid's vestment, both of which have a weight of "--"...which is negligible.

Curaigh wrote:

Description

Black scales shimmer like silk on this corset while a dozen carved bones protrude from its top. A human faced snake carved into each of the bones holds two tiny rubies for eyes.

Interesting description. From a writing standpoint, I'd say "human-faced" rather than "human faced" when using it as an adjective.

Curaigh wrote:
The eyes glow red when the wearer channels a charm spell or ability through the corset creating a gaze affect.

You're mixing up "affect" vs. "effect" here. In game terminology, it would be a gaze "effect" instead. Also, rather than refer to something as a "charm spell or ability" you might want to subsitute "enchantment (charm) effect" or "mind-affecting charm effects" or something similar. Research how that's usually referenced (e.g., elves get a +2 bonus against enchantment spells and effects). If you're going to limit it to just charms, then you need to separate it as enchantment (charm) to denote it doesn't include compulsions. Regardless, this isn't a huge deal, but it is important to reference the right game terminology for the mechanical aspects of how your item works.

Curaigh wrote:
The spell affects each viable target (per the spell used) within 30’ of the caster. Doing this shortens the spell’s duration to 1d4+3 rounds and affected creatures leaving the area before this time become free of spell 1d4 rounds later.

As a judge for an item using this kind of mechanical explanation, it's going to give me pause. Basically, I'd have to go back and assess every charm spell's range and duration to make sure this item isn't overstepping anything or breaking any rules unnecessarily. It's complicated. The description itself makes it complicated in adjudicating its use at the gaming table. Every player and GM will wind up hauling out their book to read every charm spell to figure out how this item's ability influences it. Are you saying that charm person and charm monster all get busted down to rounds instead of hours or days? What about mass charm monster? How does that get impacted by this widening of targets through the corset? Basically, I'm not real comfortable with the design or game-writing behind this thing. Doesn't seem fully thought through yet. And, as worded, I think it offers more confusion than "elegant simplicity" at the gaming table.

Curaigh wrote:
Spellcasters with the enchantment school, serpentine bloodline, trickery domain or charm patron use a 1d6 for both durations instead.

More complication. I'm feeling less and less like this would be Superstar design. It certainly wouldn't hold up well against other items that would likely make the Keep folder, assuming we let this one into the Keep folder. Also, domains are capitalized...i.e., Trickery domain, not "trickery."

Curaigh wrote:
Channeling a charm spell through the corset is a free action as part of the spell.

Okay. So, it's basically letting you take a single targeted spell and magnify it so it hits multiple targets within 30 feet? Sort of like a quickened, bouncing spell? Or some other metamagic feat? I'm not really sold on that. In some ways, I'd be questioning whether this is a new metamagic feat masquerading as a wondrous item. I can recognize, though, that you're trying to make sure the item doesn't just duplicate a spell. You're trying to make sure that spells affected by it are modified in some way. And, you're nerfing the extra targets by lowering the duration of any charm that affects them.

Curaigh wrote:
Additionally once per day the wearer may activate the corset to change his form as a standard action. The corset squeezes the user popping pieces off as it tightens. Each piece becomes a tiny snake in the image of the carved bone transforming the user and his gear into a medium swarm of tiny constrictors. The snake swarm has a movement and climb speed of 30 feet, and lasts for 11 rounds. Otherwise it behaves as a swarm does.

The user starts "popping pieces off" as the corset tightens? Ewww. We might hesitate on the grossness factor involved with that. Or, it might get championed as awesome imagery instead. I'm leaning more the former than the latter, if that's how it truly works.

We'd also consult with each other on how much of this ability is just a Monster-in-a-Can...or, more specifically, a Swarm-in-a-Can. I did something similar with the last leaves of the autumn dryad, but one thing you have to consider when you give the wearer an alternate form like this is that you have to define the statistics of the swarm. Is it exactly like a snake swarm? Do we have stats in one of the Bestiary manuals for a tiny constrictor snake swarm? I don't recall. And I'm at the office, so I can't look it up right now. Regardless, if you introduce alternate forms in a magic item, make sure it's not just a duplication of a monster form...but also make sure you can reference or provide the stats for the alternate form (and any differences if you do use one from the Bestiary).

At this point, I'm also left wondering about your name choice for this item. What does "spiritbone" have to do with mass charm effects and a snake-version of a swarmskin spell? Doesn't seem like there's anything "spiritual" about it at all. And, lastly, when we were exploring the idea of a corset that lets you squeeze down in size at the RPG Superstar panel, I don't think a swarm is what we had in mind. We were particularly interested in seeing people play around with the Spacing rules and Size rules in the game. That's kind of an underserved element within the game mechanics that someone could be innovative with in their item design. Thus, I'd encourage folks to take a look at items that work within that ruleset than the rules for swarms.

Curaigh wrote:

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item suggestion, mass, swarmskin ; Cost 59,000 gp

You've got a presentation issue here. When you're referencing the mass-version of a spell (particularly in a list separated by commas), you need to say mass suggestion rather than suggestion, mass. Otherwise, it visually looks like you're referencing the suggestion spell, another spell called mass and then the swarmskin spell. The only time you see suggestion, mass is when you're grouping spells together in a table, like all the class spell lists. That's so you can find it along with the base version of the spell. Hence, suggestion and suggestion, mass appear together, because they actually reference one another. It's the same reason you don't see dispel magic, greater listed out that way in an item's construction requirements. But, in the class spell lists, you have to look up greater dispel magic by searching for dispel magic, greater.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

chaoslizard wrote:
Corset of Sinister Sisters

Aside from a mildly interesting name, this item actually has some poor design decisions in it that it might prove useful to examine...

Spoiler:

chaoslizard wrote:
Aura faint necromancy and transmutation; CL 7th

First up, you've introduced necromancy in your aura (which I can see as a result of having speak with dead in the construction requirements. I don't, however, see a spell in the requirements that lends itself to a transmutation aura. You have abilities woven into your item's description that very much hint at the transmutation school of magic, but I'd want to see you include an actual transmutation spell in the construction requirements to explain it...even if it was just something as simple as alter self. You might even be able to get away with replacing transmutation with illusion and go with a shades spell or something.

Secondly, you've gone with a caster level of 7th when only 5th would be required for speak with dead...whether as a cleric or a witch (which seems more thematically appropriate here). It's okay to sometimes go higher than the minimum required, but in this case I'm not sure it fits what you're going for...

chaoslizard wrote:
Slot chest; Price 11,000 gp; Weight -

I'm generally okay here, except for the price. By giving your item the ability to let its wearer act as an independent hag coven of one individual, you're granting them the ability to cast all of the following spell-like abilities: animate dead, baleful polymorph, blight, bestow curse, clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster, commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana, reincarnate, speak with dead, veil, and vision. That's some POTENT mojo and quite the utilitarian Swiss-Army-Knife item for just 11,000 gp.

chaoslizard wrote:

Description

Moons, stars, and other arcane symbols adorn this light garment. The corset magically adjusts to fit any humanoid of Small, Medium, or Large size.

Good so far.

chaoslizard wrote:
Three times a day, the wearer can, as a free action, activate any of the following abilities:

My shields go up when I see phrases like this in a wondrous item. This path leads to Swiss-Army-Knife design in a hurry. So, be very careful. In this instance, I think you magnify that perception by then giving us (1), (2), and (3) to list them out. Wondrous items in the core rulebook don't get presented that way. So, I'd recommend against using that approach.

chaoslizard wrote:
(1) automatically avoid a single attack of opportunity, this decision must be made prior to the result of the actual attack

I'd be kind of "meh" on this ability. I'm not all that certain why a hag-related item would grant this benefit. It doesn't seem all that thematically appropriate. Just kind of tacked on. And why is it so important to avoid a single attack of opportunity all that often? Are witches and hags moving around on the battlefield a lot?

chaoslizard wrote:
(2) adjust their size by 1 size increment for 3 rounds, i.e., Medium to Small or Tiny to Small, etc

So, this has aspects of both reduce person and enlarge person to it, yet those spells don't appear in the construction requirements. There are also ramifications for increasing or decreasing a creature's size that need to be called out. Reference those spells and look into what those game-related elements might be so you can decide if you simply want to refer the reader to those spells or tweak them slightly because this corset operates differently in some way.

chaoslizard wrote:
(3) if the wearer has Witch levels, they may use the Coven Hex ability and count the Corset as a Hag for purposes of the Coven and may expend any remaining uses for that day to count as additional witches in the coven. When used in this way, shadowy hag forms mirror the caster while she casts her Coven spell.

Quite a few stylistic concerns here. Don't capitalize class names (i.e., it should be "witch" rather than "Witch"). Also, you don't need to capitalize or italicize the coven hex ability. You also don't need to capitalize the word "Corset" when you're referring to your wondrous item in its own descriptive text. You should, however, italicize it since it's an actual magic item. You don't need to capitalize monster names like "Hag" either.

On top of these presentation concerns in grasping how to phrase and use game terminology, I'd be hard-pressed not to reject this item right away since it's far too ripe for abuse. There's a reason a witch PC can't form her own coven by herself. The cooperative nature the limitations put on hag covens is so that you literally need three people to gain access to that wide list of spells. Even the witch's coven hex ability states that she still needs an actual hag as a member of her coven to use those spells. And, all three have to spend their actions casting them. That's a significant override built into your item to skirt all those limitations. And, at 11,000 gp, a 6th or 7th level character could afford this item. Do you really want them to have access to high-level spell effects like those listed among a hag's coven? Definitely not.

chaoslizard wrote:
The Corset may never be used more than 3 times per day and always renews its uses at 12:00am, the witching hour.

This is cute bit of flavor text. Rather than citing 12:00am, why not just say midnight?

chaoslizard wrote:

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have Witch levels, speak with dead; Cost 6,000 gp

Again, you don't need to capitalize the Witch class name in your construction requirements. I also think speak with dead doesn't go anywhere near far enough to legitimately represent what this item does. And, I think the costing is off. It should always be half the price (so, 5,500 gp in this case). And, even then, this is way undercosted for what it does.


Neil Spicer wrote:
chaoslizard wrote:
Corset of Sinister Sisters

Aside from a mildly interesting name, this item actually has some poor design decisions in it that it might prove useful to examine...

** spoiler omitted **

...

Thanks for your comments!

1. The name only mildly interesting?

2. I considered shades but I didn't feel like the item had an illusion ability other than the visual effect. I felt like it actually had more of a summons or communicate with others- which I decided were probably dead hags or witches- anyway. In hindsight shades is a great choice.
Yes, I need to work with pricing. I set CL to 7 because I wouldn't want someone to neccessarily have access to the coven spell list before 7 - good rule of thumb might be to match CL with the actual spells required in creating- weird too because this is the very reason I didn't include the enlarge/reduce/alter self - what was I thinking?

3. yes, I should pay more attention to how items are presented in the core rulebook- I went through many drafts while trying to keep word count down to fit the ideas into concept. I was also trying to keep to the design decisions presented at the seminar which is why the item almost has to have a change shape ability of some kind. Curious, would have using "charges" instead of "uses" have been a better route?

4. hmm.. my thinking with the first 2 abilities was that this really wouldn't limit the item to just witches. And, while no, a witch isn't running around a battlefield per se, she is casting spells which do draw attacks of opportunity.

5. refer to spells- good idea- though again I wouldn't want to sound like a spell in a can.

6. The witch coven hex ability- I cannot imagine a player witch ever selecting this ability. How often do hags join adventurer parties? Though if they did, I suppose it would be easy to imagine that the party would have more than one witch :) but to the ability:
Yes, 1 individual gains access to the coven spell list but having to use the corset they can only cast 1 of those spells once per day. Thats not quite the same thing as having an actual coven. Or they can use it to "power" one of their own spells per the coven hex ability rules. And if they have already used the corset to do either of its other abilities they can't even do that.
But the wording is bad- the corset should allow the witch herself to count as a Hag for purposes of the coven, and use additonal uses(charges) to summon the shadow hags to cast the single coven spell.
I was actually thinking it was a cool idea to get some play out of what I would think to be an almost never played rule.

Thanks again for your thoughts and criticisms! In the words of Wile E. Coyote, "Back to the drawing board!"

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

So my last name sucks, so did Cobra's Corset. With a few revisions, allow me to present... the snake's cincher.

Snake’s Cincher
Aura moderate transmutation, faint enchantment, faint necromancy; CL 7th
Slot body; Price 30,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Description
This black snakeskin corset features an elaborate eye-like pattern on the back, accentuated by the leather thongs used to tie it closed. It does more than cinch ones waist however, as a standard action the wearer is able to draw tight the strings of the corset, transforming into a snakelike version of themselves, with legs and arms disappearing into their body as they elongate. The wearer is unable to use any held items, natural attacks (except bite), or cast spells with somatic components, however they instead gain a +8 bonus to Escape Artist.

While in this form, the wearer is treated as a large creature with the compression ability, and may occupy any one to four adjacent squares. While in this form, they may return to normal as a swift action, appearing in any square they had occupied.

The wearer also gains the ability to sway back and forth in a hypnotic, rhythmic pattern. For each round the user spends a full-round action to maintain this motion, all creatures able to see the wearer must make a DC 16 Will save each round or become fascinated for as long as the wearer continues to sway. As part of the swaying motion, the wearer may move up to half their normal base move speed.

In addition, once per day, while the wearer has at least one creature fascinated, the wearer of the girdle may extend an intimidating hood, panicking all creatures the wearer is currently fascinating for 1d4+1 rounds. This is a vision-dependent mind-affecting fear effect.

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape II, charm person, fear; Cost 15,000 gp

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

chaoslizard, in response to a few of your questions:

2) CL7 is the first time a user gets 4th level spells. Amongst other spell-like abilities a coven gets is forcecage, a 7th level spell. Thus for 11kgp you're giving PCs access to a 7th level spell effectively twice a day. As a magic item that would normally cost ~70,000 gold. This is where the major concern came from.

Now, if you meant spell level 7 is the required level, you should have had CL 13th - and bumped up your price to match. Either way, that's a major format error.

3)I do think charges would have been a better route, but the many different abilities this can offer still make it a little swiss-army-knifey. And it's more the multiple abilities format that he's commenting on; a list might have worked well - look at rod of lordly might for an example.

4) limiting to one class is okay. It just has to be more awesome to make up for it. Some things are very class specific, and if you're going to play around with the neat potential of witches and hexes and covens, don't try to also add in something for another class. It feels tacked on and not very superstar.

5) It doesn't have to be a spell in a can to refer to a spell. Use a little word for 'except'. This works like charm person except the target must be fey instead of humanoid. not a spell in a can, but refers to an existing spell to keep itself balanced and clear.

6) Hags don't ususally join adventuring parties. But witches can be NPCs, and as a result - can join covens the PCs might meet.

Also, while you say once per day on the coven spells (which still would put you at potentially 35,000gp alone), the way you wrote it, the corset counts as a hag, and it can also summon another hag. So if the witch already has the coven hex, they can actually cast it three times a day. And if not, that's very unclear.


RonarsCorruption- in response to your comments

1. CL - determines an item's "operating strength" if you will. It also limits a creator of the said item to a minimum level. CL is not neccessarily equal to the minimum level of spell needed to create the item. Thats a big difference.
You seem to suggest that giving characters access to a spell/or ability higher than what they can personally cast/or perform is a bad thing? or overpowered thing? It certainly can be but it by no means makes it so- I have had characters use wishes who have never been able to personally cast a wish spell(back in the day, most characters died before you would reach this level- see Tomb of Horrors)

2. You use the term "swiss-army-knife" and yet- every corset on this thread tries to tie in a shape changing and some sort of mesmerizing effet- presumably this is why everyone is using "snake" in their name to justify the mix of effects- but a "rose by any other name would smell as sweet." I think there is an argument that anyone pulling off the mentioned item by the design panel had pulled off a "swiss army knife"- I don't see it- As I said, the first 2 uses make this an item arguable usable by any class and not limited to witches.

3. I honestly felt like both of the first 2 uses were usable by a witch- as I said, casting spells provokes attacks of opportunity- I also felt both of the first 2 useses were the "shape-changing" aspect- It causes the attack of opportunity to miss you by altering your shape at the right moment - it changes your size category by tightening in or loosening out your girth So I didn't feel as if either use was "tacked on". I wasn't trying to tack on something from "another class"? However I would agree that a Corset of Sinister Sisters doesn't need such effects and would be a great witch only item anyway

4. Hags & covens- exactly!- why include a rule in a player book that is meant for NPCs to use? Because no one is going to use up a feat, ability, skill slot ect for that one chance encounter which may or may never happen.

5. When I replied to Neil, I thought I was clear, but I will reitirate, once more for you, it was meant to allow a single witch, to cast a single spell from the coven list once per day. It was poorly worded in the original presentation.

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

1) There's nothing wrong at all about giving the players access to a spell they wouldn't normally be able to get. That's the whole point of magic items. The concern that's ultimately coming up is this is effectively granting the PC a 7th level spell slot, granting one of many high level abilities. Considering this could easily be purchased by PCs as early as 4th level, this is a major pricing/power flub, as even at only once per day the powers are far beyond what anything else in that price point provides.

2) Ah, the swiss-army-knife. Yes, all the corsets here have both shape changing and mind-affecting powers. But they're not swiss-army knives for two reasons. Firstly, because that was the challenge. Secondly, because they're tied together by the snake symbolism. The reason your corset feels more like a SAK is because the abilities aren't thematically linked. Or at minimum, they aren't thematically linked enough for the average reader to connect them.

When you're designing an item with multiple abilities, you have to consider that all the abilities should be linked to the same source. the plentiful pouch, as an example, can function as a cure or a restoration spell - linked by the goodberries. the erinyes braid protects against flanking and attacks enemies - tied together by the braid.

If either of those was a ring (or a corset), they would be spells in a can. But they're not - they're something else. Your corset allows dodging, shapechanging and (effectively) hag-summoning. And the link is... a hag? SAKs aren't items with lots of abilities, they're items with more abilities than can be thematically linked together - and yours fits the bill this time.

3) and that's what I mean. You had the abilities justified in your head, but they're not explained in the item. All you say is 'avoid an AOO' not 'by suddenly changing shape'. Adding that in would have made a huge difference - and it's not like you didn't have a few words to spare.

4) because not only players use those books. I'd bet one reason Paizo has only one core book is because it's simpler to use that way, both players and DMs can use the same book.


Corset of the Boneless Art
Aura faint enchantment and transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot chest; Price 6,000 gp; Weight -
Description
Vertical white slashes decorate this black corset, seeming to represent an unnatural second rib cage. Any creature wearing the corset can contort his body into all manner of shapes, becoming double-jointed and extremely flexible, and allowing him to fit into impossibly small spaces. The wearer gains the compression ability as per the Universal Monster Rules.

Once per day the wearer may attempt a truly fantastic act of contortion as a standard action. All creatures within 30 feet must make a Will save DC 13 or become fascinated for 5 rounds. If this ability is used when not in combat, all targets take a -2 penalty on their saving throw. Creatures fascinate by this effect must be able to see the wearer. If a creature under this effect loses sight of the wearer (the wearer becomes hidden, invisible or breaks line of sight) the effect end. Blind creatures and those without eyes are immune to this effect.

While wearing the corset, the wearer can only hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution score (as opposed to twice his Constitution score normally).

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, hypnotism, reduce person; Cost 3,000 gp

Taking Neil's input, this is a thematically different but mechanical clone of my earlier corset. Just trying to clean it up and make it "pop" a little more.

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9

Neil Spicer wrote:
Curaigh wrote:
Spiritbone Corset

Spiritbone, huh? Interesting spin, considering corsets have often been manufactured using whalebone. I'm curious to see where this one goes...

** spoiler omitted **...

Thanks Neil, I hoped to save you some effort with the ooc questions, but you answered them none-the-less.

How much does a corset weigh? Good question (I had to look it up). The top end is steel, the bottom end is plastic. Just a guess where whalebone would land :)

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

If anyone ever wonders why we judges sometimes say "what Neil said," this is why. He gets in first and just kills it. He is an amazing machine. Just amazing. Look at the time he takes on this stuff. The design mojo. Sean is like that too. This is a really great thread. Take the advice and recraft and repost your item. I bet you will see it reads better and pops more. This is exactly what you need to do to get by that first round cut. This is GOLD for anyone trying to get in to Superstar next year.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

I think the first thing we would likely discuss is the slot. Which slot does this go in? Seems to be an equal split between chest and body in the submissions above. Because the real question is can you wear this with armor or other magic items, and if so which ones?

Here are the rules:

Magic Items on the Body
Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It's possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as 15 magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body, known as a “slot.”

A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.

Armor: suits of armor.

Belts: belts and girdles.

Body: robes and vestments.

Chest: mantles, shirts, and vest

And do you need any call-out text on that issue?

Looking at the list of magic items, you see the mantles (a chest item) all include this language: "This garment, worn over normal clothing or armor, grants..."

Robes, a body item, do not say any such thing.

*I* think this is a chest item and that you should include text that says "This corset, worn under normal clothing or armor, ..." just so things are clear. (YMMV). I think a corset is more akin to a shirt, and thus a chest item, than to a robe, which is an entire body item. One thing is for sure, it is not "shoulders" like a cloak so I am glad no one used that.

I guess I am surprised no one has considered it in the belt slot like a girdle :) Not saying that is what I think it should be, just saying I am surprised not to have seen that at least once.

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts. Especially Neil's :)

THIS is the kind of stuff we judges discuss--slots. If you get it right, or if we perceive that you did, then good work. If we think you missed it, that's not good. Slots are an issue that show us your design mojo and your knowledge of the way an item impacts the whole game. If you just gave it very little thought, sometimes we can see that. I personally think "body" shows me you weren't doing your evaluation right and that you dont have superstar mojo, and that you maybe arent thinking about how this item interrelates with all other items. A corset is just not a body item in my view (or at least the one we discussed at the con). BUT then some of your items do more than what we discussed, so I could see it for this item. I doubt for this item my disagreement with the slot would stop me from including the item in the "keep" folder. But this is a good thing to discuss to illustrate what we think about.

Clark

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

I think the reason everyone's picking body is because, like it being a corset, it was mentioned in the panel. I don't remember if it was actually suggested or just mentioned - but it was definitely in there.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

RonarsCorruption wrote:
I think the reason everyone's picking body is because, like it being a corset, it was mentioned in the panel. I don't remember if it was actually suggested or just mentioned - but it was definitely in there.

I don't think we specified a slot in the panel discussion. We talked about slots but certainly didn't say which one.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Clark Peterson wrote:
I guess I am surprised no one has considered it in the belt slot like a girdle :) Not saying that is what I think it should be, just saying I am surprised not to have seen that at least once....I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts. Especially Neil's :)

Personally, I'd assign a magic corset to the "chest" slot. I can see a case, however, for the "belt" slot since it's accomplishing something similar to a girdle. But, I think there are enough people who (rightly or wrongly) just naturally assume a corset covers the abdomen and torso enough that it would equate to the "chest" slot. So, go ahead and meet that assumption. No one would hold it against you. Not among the judges, anyway.

Now, that said, I think adding text that indicates it can be worn under normal clothing or armor would be a nice design touch. It adds to the item's utility if you include that.

My two cents,
--Neil

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

Huh, you actually say the chest slot a few times (first at ~19:00), not the body slot. It's weird we all chose basically the armor slot instead of the chest or belt slots - both of which were mentioned as preferable.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

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Some more feedback...

RonarsCorruption wrote:
Snake’s Cincher

Spoiler:
RonarsCorruption wrote:
So my last name sucks, so did Cobra's Corset. With a few revisions, allow me to present... the snake's cincher.

Unfortunately, I can't say that I like the snake's cincher as a wondrous item name any more than your others. Naming is an important, vital skill. As Ryan indicated at the panel discussion, he views it as the most important thing. And, by that, he means not just the name, but also delivering on it in a way that supports (or matches) what your item does. You kind of flirt with that by naming it the snake's cincher, but in that same panel discussion, I also mentioned the importance of making sure you indicate what your item is, physically-speaking, as well.

So, for me, I think the name of this item has to include "corset" somewhere in there. I want to be able to write this wondrous item down on a character sheet and have a pretty good idea what it is just by reading the name. Including the word "corset" would do that for me. But, in terms of having a good Superstar-caliber name, it's what you add to it that will make it pop and get us interested in reading further about it.

For this particular item, I'd suggest something like the sinuous corset. With that kind of name, you tell us right away what it is...and you also hint, just a little bit, at what it probably helps you do. The adjective "sinuous" also implies a bit of a serpentine vibe to it. So, if you want a snake-connection without using the word snake or cobra or serpent anywhere in there, you've got that covered, too. Meanwhile, the very word "sinuous" already gives you a basis for defining the compression ability you'd mechanically weave into the item.

RonarsCorruption wrote:
Aura moderate transmutation, faint enchantment, faint necromancy; CL 7th

From a stylistic standpoint, you need some work here. It's okay to have mixed strengths for auras of one school vs. another school. But, you've introduced three separate ones...two of which are the same strength (i.e., faint). I'd recommend scaling that back a bit. Maybe choose two auras to base your item around to keep it simpler and more elegant. And, if you can keep them to the same strength, I'd recommend that, too.

With regards to your caster level, it seems appropriate. A 4th level spell like fear would need a 7th level caster to build it into the item. Same goes for beast shape II. I'm a little curious, though...knowing that your transmutation and necromantic spells are the same power (i.e., both 4th level), why'd you assign them different strengths for the aura?

RonarsCorruption wrote:
Slot body; Price 30,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

I'd still recommend going with "chest" over "body" for a corset item. The "body" slot is primarily meant for full-length robes and vestments. And, though a corset can extend across the entire torso area, it usually doesn't address the legs and lower body as much as those other garments do.

Weight is arguable. Some real world examples posted earlier cited corsets in the 1-2 lb. range. Nothing to quibble over.

Price is going to be the biggest concern in this section. But, as we mentioned in the panel discussion, it isn't the be-all, end-all of wondrous item evaluation for us in the judging chambers. As long as you don't get it egregiously wrong, we're generally going to move past that. Personally, I think 30,000 gp might be a little high for this item. It inherently nerfs the ability to use held items, cast spells with somatic components, etc. And, in exchange, you get a +8 bonus (untyped? should be competence?) to Escape Artist checks. They get a size change (to Large) with the compression ability. And, if they spend their time swaying or deploying the "hood" effect, they get a mass charm or fear effect out of it. If you compare those abilities (and the limitations inherent in using them) to other wondrous items in that same price range, I'm not sure a whole lot of people will be fighting over this item vs. taking it to ye olde magic shoppe to cash it in so they can buy something more useful.

RonarsCorruption wrote:

Description

This black snakeskin corset features an elaborate eye-like pattern on the back, accentuated by the leather thongs used to tie it closed.

Cool descriptive text. You're leading off really well here.

RonarsCorruption wrote:
It does more than cinch ones waist however, as a standard action the wearer is able to draw tight the strings of the corset, transforming into a snakelike version of themselves, with legs and arms disappearing into their body as they elongate. The wearer is unable to use any held items, natural attacks (except bite), or cast spells with somatic components, however they instead gain a +8 bonus to Escape Artist.

Some stylistic issues here to note. First, it should be "...cinch one's waist..." with an apostrophe. Secondly, you've got a bit of a run-on sentence there at the start. Maybe say, "It does more than cinch one's waist, however."...followed by, "As a standard action, the wearer...." Then, "...the wearer is able to draw tight the strings of the corset..." might read better if you said "...the wearer can tightly draw the strings of the corset..."

RonarsCorruption wrote:
While in this form, the wearer is treated as a large creature with the compression ability, and may occupy any one to four adjacent squares. While in this form, they may return to normal as a swift action, appearing in any square they had occupied.

Hmmm. Maybe you're trying to be innovative here, but I'm not particularly thrilled with the mechanics of this ability. Granting the compression ability is fine. But, allowing them to occupy "one to four" adjacent squares isn't worth calling out here. As a Large creature, they'd normally take up a 10 ft. x 10 ft. area. And, yes, compression lets them squeeze down to move through tight spaces, but we don't need to go into tracking round by round whether they're taking up one, two, three, or four squares at a time. Just let the compression rules explain what the corset lets you do. I think this is even more important when you include the element of returning to normal and choosing a previously occupied square in which to appear. This doesn't work for me. Instead, I'd start looking at what happens with regards to Attacks of Opportunity against a shrinking opponent who's essentially getting a free withdraw action (or 5 ft. step) to pull back a square from someone they're facing. This kind of movement and size/space occupation gets complicated and awkward to track at the gaming table. In other words, it's not elegant enough in description or execution...

Also, you forgot to capitalize the size designation of "Large"...

RonarsCorruption wrote:
The wearer also gains the ability to sway back and forth in a hypnotic, rhythmic pattern. For each round the user spends a full-round action to maintain this motion, all creatures able to see the wearer must make a DC 16 Will save each round or become fascinated for as long as the wearer continues to sway. As part of the swaying motion, the wearer may move up to half their normal base move speed.

Presumably, you're relying on the charm person element to hint at this effect in your item. I think that's a mis-step. The charm person spell doesn't fascinate people. It just makes them friendlier. If you want to fascinate your targets, you need to go with hypnotism or examine the spell effects of hypnotic pattern (but pin it to the movements of the corset wearer).

Secondly, I'm curious how your derived a DC 16? Typically, the DC for a charm person-based effect in a wondrous item would 10 + spell level + the minimum ability score bonus modifier necessary for a spellcaster of that level to cast it. So, 10 + 1 + 0 = DC 11...which isn't nearly potent enough for a 30,000 gp item which most PCs couldn't afford until they're reasonably high level, whereupon they'll rarely (if ever) face any opponents that would succumb to that low of a DC. A good trick for cranking up the potency of a spell effect like this (while also making it match the pricing vs. Wealth by Character Level tables), is to go with a higher version of such a spell. So, reach for charm monster...or mass charm monster...or borrow the mechanics of a rainbow pattern or hypnotic pattern. This will better derive a DC that matches what you need your item to do.

RonarsCorruption wrote:
In addition, once per day, while the wearer has at least one creature fascinated, the wearer of the girdle may extend an intimidating hood, panicking all creatures the wearer is currently fascinating for 1d4+1 rounds. This is a vision-dependent mind-affecting fear effect.

Here, you suddenly stop calling it a corset and refer to it as a girdle. Was that intentional?

Also, you're venturing into SAK territory by throwing on both a charm-based and fear effect. Though I can appreciate the full "snake-iness" of the theme, I think you're starting to overthink it. Simplicity is your friend here. Invoke the compression mechanic (the crown jewel of this item's abilities) along with a charm-based mechanic...and you could stop there, if you want. Tacking on the +8 Escape Artist bonus with the fear effect goes too far.

I also think the fear effect is at odds with the charm ability of the item. Why fascinate and charm targets if you're just going to follow that up with a fear "attack" as well? I'm far more interested in the sinuous, mesmerizing aspects of someone wearing a magical corset than a cobra hood extending from the back of it to frighten anyone suckered into being fascinated by the sinuous movements.

RonarsCorruption wrote:

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape II, charm person, fear; Cost 15,000 gp

I think you're doing too much here...and some of your spell choices are likely off. If you want to go literal with the snake-like transformation thing, I can see a case for the inclusion of a beast shape II spell. Interestingly enough, you're apparently not granting the wearer of the corset the size bonus to Strength, penalty to Dexterity, or natural armor bonus. So, you've steered away from those aspects of the spell, but you haven't addressed any of the other usual benefits of increasing someone to Large size. Also, what happens if a Small PC puts on this corset? Do they grow to Large or just Medium? You're quickly opening up a can of worms here with regards to how you'll address the size changing aspects of the item.

Secondly, as I mentioned before, I think charm person isn't your best bet for the fascinate ability. Find a different spell that produces that effect and cite it instead. Hypnotic pattern might make for the best bet.

Lastly, I think fear is misplaced here. Maybe create a snake-themed cloak that duplicates that ability. I just don't see a place for it in this corset without going over the top into SAK territory.


My two cents,
--Neil

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

Thanks for the feedback, Neil. I'm seeing myself get a little to enamoured with one concept or another, revising only bits and pieces of it - which rather reflects poorly on my item design at the end.

And apparently, naming too. I hadn't really realized how much trouble I was having with coming up with good item names until you guys started pointing it out.

I've got a lot of work to do, it looks like. Maybe I'll see if I can get that corset right, to get in a good mindset. hmm...

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