It's not that different than the bard's Lore Master ability that lets them take 20 on Knowledge checks, imo.
In what situation would you think that making a successful Knowledge check would break the game? Not being snarky, just honestly looking for some examples I haven't thought of. Are there any adventure hooks or plotlines that require the PCs to be ignorant?
The oracle has a much harder time getting significant bonuses to her skill checks though, the bard breezes through that for free.
Finding out an outsiders Truename is a knowledge(planes) check of 10+ Creature HD ( + DM adjustments of course). Treerazer has only 28 hd...A 5th level oracle of lore, this, and taking 10 = Treerazer's truename... That kind of thing could get pretty gamebreaking.
Oracle : YES! I am INVINCIBLE now! Shake in your boots puny mortal realm!
Treerazor : Grrrrrrr
Treerazor's Boss : How dare you disappear in the middle of my giving you instructions! I'll shred your skin for 10,000 years!
Treerazor : Sorry boss, this Lore Oracle summoned me by my truename! It wasn't my idea, I swear!
Oracle : Erk? Kill him!
Boss : Oh do be quiet. Now, do get on home before I eat your liver.
Treerazor : You got it boss!
Boss : Ewww, I think I got oracle between my toes.
In what situation would you think that making a successful Knowledge check would break the game? Not being snarky, just honestly looking for some examples I haven't thought of. Are there any adventure hooks or plotlines that require the PCs to be ignorant?Finding out an outsiders Truename is a knowledge(planes) check of 10+ Creature HD ( + DM adjustments of course). Treerazer has only 28 hd...
A 5th level oracle of lore, this, and taking 10 = Treerazer's truename... That kind of thing could get pretty gamebreaking.
I had to go look up in UM to see what that even did, so I'm obviously not very up on true names. Even requiring a month's study or quest makes it ridiculous that an elven bard, let alone lore oracle, hasn't done something about Treerazer yet.
Does the True name work to do anything but call the outsider to the material plane, though? Because Treerazer's already here.
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The oracle has a much harder time getting significant bonuses to her skill checks though, the bard breezes through that for free.Oracle of Lore gets to add their Charisma instead of Int to Knowledge skills instead. They also use charisma instead of Dex for AC, reflex throws, and initiative. Overall, they're one of the least MAD classes in the game.
Lore Oracles are not able to use their Cha mod in place of their Dex mod for initiative. Sidestep secret only works with AC and Reflex.
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As soon as one of my PCs found out I was considering running Carrion Crown, he immeadiately announced he was going to take a 1 level dip in Oracle for exactly this ability, in order to "pwn" all of the research checks.
I told him no. My grounds were that it's more fun to spread the love across the party (Cleric does KnowRel, Wizard does KnowArca, etc). Having one player take all the spotlight for something that pretty central to the AP's themes is not my idea of "fun for everyone."
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The problem with using chr for knowledge checks is that then int is not so important but int would help with skills points which equal more knowledge ranks and other skills like diplomacy.
While that is true Oracles get 4 + int for their skills. I run a Lore Oracle in the Pathfinder Society and they make very strong utility tanks. I have 1 points in each knowledge and have an AC of 21 w/ a +5 Cha modifier at level 3.
In order to attempt to keep my character relatively realistic I chose to have 11 Str so as just to be strong enough to not be hampered with my armor and my shield, although that means I have no weapons or items really. Once I can get a Mithral Breastplate I shouldn't have issues.
Of course, a one level dip in oracle gives you the oracle curse as well.
Of course, a one level dip in oracle gives you the oracle curse as well.
I would have been more than happy to let him take it because of that especially since it takes a few Oracle levels to lessen the curse.
Of course, a one level dip in oracle gives you the oracle curse as well.I would have been more than happy to let him take it because of that especially since it takes a few Oracle levels to lessen the curse.
I'd say that a dip into lore keeper is not the thing to worry about for a bard.
It's the lore keeper dipping 2 levels into bard. You get a huge amount of very complementary things for a 2 level dip into bard. Versatile performance, all by itself, can basically add 2 class skills to the lore keeper's list of skills, and it's not level dependent. Add in bardic performance, inspire courage, bardic knowledge (+1 permanent bonus to all knowledge skill checks) and all the skill points you get (plus arcane spells) and it's a nice little dip. Five cantrips and 3 1st level arcane spells.
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Of course, a one level dip in oracle gives you the oracle curse as well.I would have been more than happy to let him take it because of that especially since it takes a few Oracle levels to lessen the curse.I'd say that a dip into lore keeper is not the thing to worry about for a bard.
It's the lore keeper dipping 2 levels into bard. You get a huge amount of very complementary things for a 2 level dip into bard. Versatile performance, all by itself, can basically add 2 class skills to the lore keeper's list of skills, and it's not level dependent. Add in bardic performance, inspire courage, bardic knowledge (+1 permanent bonus to all knowledge skill checks) and all the skill points you get (plus arcane spells) and it's a nice little dip. Five cantrips and 3 1st level arcane spells.
But are 5 cantrip,s 3 first level bard spells and performances really worth the loss of higher level spells? Oracles already get second level spells at level four, so tossing two levels into bard would let the player cast third level spells at level 8. I don't see how that's worth it.
But are 5 cantrip,s 3 first level bard spells and performances really worth the loss of higher level spells? Oracles already get second level spells at level four, so tossing two levels into bard would let the player cast third level spells at level 8. I don't see how that's worth it.
Well, before I can answer that, are we talking about a lore oracle skill monkey? Or are we talking about a spell caster? My understanding from the OP was the idea that we were talking about skill monkey overpower.
As to spellcasting, it depends on the concept and how you are playing it. The bard has very nice synergies with the oracle. Both have armor, both cast without spell failure, both have different sets of weapons they can use (thus gaining more versatility). The bard gains an ability to buff a set number of rounds per day (based on Cha), both use CHA for their spellcasting (making them a very SAD multiclass combo), between the bard and oracle, you have most skills as class skills. Yes, you do lose two levels of spellcasting in Oracle. Honestly, if you were going to go Mystic Theurge, you could start MT at level 9 with a pair of casting classes that both use the same stat (very hard to do). Is it the maximum DPR? Certainly not. Is it viable? Absolutely.
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Well, before I can answer that, are we talking about a lore oracle skill monkey? Or are we talking about a spell caster? My understanding from the OP was the idea that we were talking about skill monkey overpower.
As to spellcasting, it depends on the concept and how you are playing it. The bard has very nice synergies with the oracle. Both have armor, both cast without spell failure, both have different sets of weapons they can use (thus gaining more versatility). The bard gains an ability to buff a set number of rounds per day (based on Cha), both use CHA for their spellcasting (making them a very SAD multiclass combo), between the bard and oracle, you have most skills as class skills. Yes, you do lose two levels of spellcasting in Oracle. Honestly, if you were going to go Mystic Theurge, you could start MT at level 9 with a pair of casting classes that both use the same stat (very hard to do). Is it the maximum DPR? Certainly not. Is it viable? Absolutely.
Hmm, you're right. I wended up going offtopic :(
Hmm, you're right. I wended up going offtopic :(
LOL
No biggie, just wanted to confirm whether the question was from a skill monkey or spellcaster standpoint. Skill monkey is less concerned about spellcasting, but spellcaster is.
Oh no, not the knowledge checks...?
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I started this post and will clarify. I want the lore oracle so I can cast spells and sink some points into intelligence to have decent skill points. With the oracle mysteries one can be a knowledge and spell monkey all at the same time
Don't you dare sink points into int, it's a huge waste. With a high Cha and the appropriate knowledge mysteries you can easily achieve ridiculous rolls with nothing more than 1 point in each knowledge, leaving you with the base (if you don't lower your int) 4 skills a level. at level 3 or 4+ you will be able to rank up other skills, but you really won't need int.
Ye old oracle 1/ paladin x is better In my opinion, add cha to armor, reflex, all saves again is like wow!