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Added Summonings (Su): At 15th level, whenever you summon a creature with the demon subtype or the fiendish template using a summon monster spell, you summon one additional creature of the same kind.
Superior Summoning
You can summon more creatures.
Prerequisites: Augment Summoning, caster level 3rd.Benefit: Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature, add one to the total number of creatures summoned.
Would this combination allow a character to summon three Glabrezu or Nalfeshnee with Summon Monster IX?
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Added Summonings (Su): At 15th level, whenever you summon a creature with the demon subtype or the fiendish template using a summon monster spell, you summon one additional creature of the same kind.Would this combination allow a character to summon three Glabrezu or Nalfeshnee with Summon Monster IX?Superior Summoning
You can summon more creatures.
Prerequisites: Augment Summoning, caster level 3rd.Benefit: Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature, add one to the total number of creatures summoned.
It would seem so, as there is no precedent for things like this to not stack with similar effects. However, this combination also carries the unwritten clause "...and earn the GM's eternal enmity, who will now treat you as hostile in all in-and-out-of-game interactions."
I would say so, yes.
I've never heard of the Superior Summoning feat. Where is it?
My guess would be UM
Hmmmm. I'm a bit torn.
On the one hand, the spell you are casting (that is, the spell's description with no other "additive" abilities) summons one creature. The abyssal bloodline ability applies *when* you cast the spell. But the spell itself summons one creature. The feat ties to the spell itself -- not to the results of the spell. If the spell itself says it summons one creature, that shouldn't trigger Superior Summoning.
On the other hand, it's definitely close. I think most GMs would ultimately prefer the previous paragraph for balance. . . but RAW is fuzzy enough to where it could definitely be allowed.
I don't think you lose that much if you apply the "nerf" paragraph above. For instance, if you summon 1d3 demons and get 2, both the feat and the ability still apply. . . so you'd end up with 4.
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Hmmmm. I'm a bit torn.
On the one hand, the spell you are casting (that is, the spell's description with no other "additive" abilities) summons one creature. The abyssal bloodline ability applies *when* you cast the spell. But the spell itself summons one creature. The feat ties to the spell itself -- not to the results of the spell. If the spell itself says it summons one creature, that shouldn't trigger Superior Summoning.
On the other hand, it's definitely close. I think most GMs would ultimately prefer the previous paragraph for balance. . . but RAW is fuzzy enough to where it could definitely be allowed.
It doesn't bother me in this case because the spell could also just as easily be used to summon, say, 1d4+1 vrocks, which becomes 1d4+3 vrocks. The 1 -> 2 -> 3 doesn't bother me.
It doesn't bother me in this case because the spell could also just as easily be used to summon, say, 1d4+1 vrocks, which becomes 1d4+3 vrocks. The 1 -> 2 -> 3 doesn't bother me.
Yeah, but I think it's probably more effective to summon 3 of the biggest things you can summon versus 100% more of lower level things. 100% more lower level things = 100% more highest level thing. So the vrock example is fine, but the 3 x Nalfeshnee with Summon Monster IX is over the top. . .
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It's true that summoning an extra nalfeshnee is better than an extra vrock.
However, I've always been of the opinion that once you're throwing around 9th level spells, your opponents really shouldn't care about whether you send the entire Abyss after them. If you're engaging in regular everyday battles at 17th+ level... you're probably just wasting your potential.
Extra nalfeshnees are an excellent way to pass the time, but they probably won't help you ascend to legendary status.
That's true enough once you get to 17th level and have access to the truly ridiculous spells. However, what about a 12th level character with a Robe of Arcane Heritage throwing down 3 fiendish Dire Bears or Shadow Demons? That's a lot of power at mid-levels, and even though it doesn't scale as effectively, it's still pretty effective in the upper tier.
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
There are two ways of casting a Summoning spell: normal (one creature), or multiple (several lesser creatures). It seems to me that many powers are written with only one of these in mind.
Superior Summoning: Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature, add one to the total number of creatures summoned.
AFAIK, if you cast such a spell in the normal way, you don't benefit from Superior Summoning because the spell you are using summons only one creature. The Added Summonings comes afterwards.
Added Summonings: At 15th level, whenever you summon a creature with the demon subtype or the fiendish template using a summon monster spell, you summon one additional creature of the same kind.
Now, question: when you use a Summoning spell that summons several creatures (let's say two), do you get one additional creature of the same kind... or two?
However, I've always been of the opinion that once you're throwing around 9th level spells, your opponents really shouldn't care about whether you send the entire Abyss after them. If you're engaging in regular everyday battles at 17th+ level... you're probably just wasting your potential.Extra nalfeshnees are an excellent way to pass the time, but they probably won't help you ascend to legendary status.
I don't really like this argument. While it is true that you will have more powerful options when you have 9 lvl spells at your disposal, the balance should be viewed internally. If you compare it to the best choices the 17th level caster has, then you might just remove summon monster IX from the game entirely.
The Bloodline power is really powerful for high level summonings, as it doubles you output. Adding another 100% makes it way more powerful than the regular lvl 9 spell.
Added Summonings: At 15th level, whenever you summon a creature with the demon subtype or the fiendish template using a summon monster spell, you summon one additional creature of the same kind.Now, question: when you use a Summoning spell that summons several creatures (let's say two), do you get one additional creature of the same kind... or two?
Right, Superior Summoning is CLEAR as to the case it applies to (multiple summons),
but Added Summonings isn`t so clear whether it`s meant for a single Summons only,or gives you an additional creature for EACH creature you summon (and it`s plausible that besides `stacking` with Superior Summoning, it also APPLIES TO the bonus creature for SS, since you are `summoning that creature`). Going from RAW, I would default to the second, expansive interpretation, since if the first was intended the wording really should say `whenever you summon a SINGLE creature`.
Hit the FAQ button, folks.
There are two ways of casting a Summoning spell: normal (one creature), or multiple (several lesser creatures). It seems to me that many powers are written with only one of these in mind.
Superior Summoning: Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature, add one to the total number of creatures summoned.AFAIK, if you cast such a spell in the normal way, you don't benefit from Superior Summoning because the spell you are using summons only one creature. The Added Summonings comes afterwards.
Added Summonings: At 15th level, whenever you summon a creature with the demon subtype or the fiendish template using a summon monster spell, you summon one additional creature of the same kind.Now, question: when you use a Summoning spell that summons several creatures (let's say two), do you get one additional creature of the same kind... or two?
As I see it, the issue lies in which order the abilities come into effect.
If Added Summonings is applied first to Summon Monster IX, then 2 Nalfeshnees show up. In such a case, 2 being more than 1 would then trigger Superior Summoning and in the end you'd actually get 3.If Superior Summoning is addressed 1st though, it would not trigger and you would get 1 Nalfeshnee. Added Summonings would still work, so you'd end up with 2 Nalfeshnees.
Regardless - I FAQ'd it.
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Added Summonings language a creature muddles things, and, IMO, should just read creatures or one or more creatures.
But the Superior Summoning text seems clear that it only applies when conjuring multiple creatures.
So I'd only allow them to stack when calling up multiple creatures from a lower-level list.
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Added Summonings language a creature muddles things, and, IMO, should just read creatures or one or more creatures.
But the Superior Summoning text seems clear that it only applies when conjuring multiple creatures.
So I'd only allow them to stack when calling up multiple creatures from a lower-level list.
That's not what the feat does, though. As written, it doesn't apply when you summon 1d3 creatures and roll a one.
I would rule that "Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature" refers to the spell (i.e. the spell has to have the possiblity of conjuring more than one creature), not the number of things you actually get from it. So if you use it to summon 1d3 of something, and roll a 1, it still kicks in, but if you get a bonus summon from something that wasn't part of the spell, you don't.
Otherwise, you have a 1-in-3 chance of having it do nothing when you're summoning at one level lower, giving you 1, 3, or 4 as possible outcomes, instead of 2, 3, or 4. I FAQed it.