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So, my question is this: If a character takes the Two Weapon Fighting feat that gives him one extra attack per round. A weapon with the Speed special ability does the same. So, would a character with Two Weapon Fighting get 2 extra attacks per round? Add this to a character that already gets extra attacks per round due to his level and the character is suddenly a whirling dervish of death. Am I misunderstanding something by thinking this would be the case?
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So, my question is this: If a character takes the Two Weapon Fighting feat that gives him one extra attack per round. A weapon with the Speed special ability does the same. So, would a character with Two Weapon Fighting get 2 extra attacks per round?
I was going to answer no, but after re-reading the weapon enhancement I'm not as sure, You certainly cannot use speed and haste together but it sounds like two speed weapons might work.
Add this to a character that already gets extra attacks per round due to his level and the character is suddenly a whirling dervish of death. Am I misunderstanding something by thinking this would be the case?
Keep in mind speed is a +3 enhancement, which makes your weapon much more expensive. You are probably better off going with boots of speed which get you a single additional attack per round but then you could put additional effects on your weapons which affect all your attacks. So you could add Holy and Cold instead of speed.
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This question has been getting asked for years. I am just going to hit the FAQ button.
This is a rule question that goes around time to time. Whom-ever you aske will have a different view of the words, even the developers share different views. Ultimately it is a thing your dm and you should talk about.
This is a rule question that goes around time to time. Whom-ever you aske will have a different view of the words, even the developers share different views. Ultimately it is a thing your dm and you should talk about.
They have to decide for now, but I think this one is worthy of an official answer since it is not a corner case situation or a stacking of feats from 3 different books and then asking a developer to rule on it. If anyone is reading this I actually FAQ'd Ogre's statement.
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This is a rule question that goes around time to time. Whom-ever you aske will have a different view of the words, even the developers share different views. Ultimately it is a thing your dm and you should talk about.They have to decide for now, but I think this one is worthy of an official answer since it is not a corner case situation or a stacking of feats from 3 different books and then asking a developer to rule on it. If anyone is reading this I actually FAQ'd Ogre's statement.
IMO it's one of those things where it really doesn't matter. It's ridiculously expensive to build and the characters who can take advantage of it aren't on the bleeding edge of the DPR curve anyhow. Essentially I don't see this being worth the cost except for one type of build, TWF critical focused characters.
So for 100,000 gold a two weapon Kukri (or however you spell that) fighter can have a pair of Keen Speed Kukri's and get one extra attack per round... It's a corner case and it's not that nasty. Hopefully Jason and Sean have more interesting things to worry over.
I guess the other real abuse would be putting the enhancement on a creature with 4 arms...
Darn post monster.
In short, it is not game breaking but deserves attention eventually.
The speed weapon ability adds one attack with that weapon on a full attack, so TWF with a speed weapon grants two extra attacks on a full attack: one with the off-hand weapon and one for the speed property.
The extra attack from the speed property does not stack with divine power, haste, or other speed weapons. The non-stacking for divine power and haste are explicitly stated; the non-stacking of multiple speed weapons is on the general rule that multiple bonuses of the same type do not stack (dodge bonuses being one of the few exceptions).
The non-stacking of multiple speed weapons is also a game balance issue. Otherwise, you'd run into NPC mariliths with six speed weapons making 16 attacks in a round (5 primary speed weapon + 2x5 secondary speed weapons + 1 tail slap).
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Really? A marilith with Six speed weapons? Just the base price of 192.000 gold pieces would say that that build is kinda improbable.
Quote from PRD:
Speed: When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
Meaning that if you're hasted, you choose to use the benefit of haste, or the benefit of the speed weapon, not both.
If you, however have a speed weapon in each hand (really expensive 64.000 minimum price) you get to strike an additional time with each weapon on a full attack.
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The speed weapon ability adds one attack with that weapon on a full attack, so TWF with a speed weapon grants two extra attacks on a full attack: one with the off-hand weapon and one for the speed property.
The extra attack from the speed property does not stack with divine power, haste, or other speed weapons. The non-stacking for divine power and haste are explicitly stated; the non-stacking of multiple speed weapons is on the general rule that multiple bonuses of the same type do not stack (dodge bonuses being one of the few exceptions).
The non-stacking of multiple speed weapons is also a game balance issue. Otherwise, you'd run into NPC mariliths with six speed weapons making 16 attacks in a round (5 primary speed weapon + 2x5 secondary speed weapons + 1 tail slap).
It's NOT a game balance issue.
Your hypothetical marilith has 192,000 gold worth of weapons. Not very likely and even if it did happen the characters would love that huge payday which is almost six times the amount of treasure a typical CR 17 encounter should have.
I did say "NPC marilith." Back in October, in this thread, I posted "if built as a BBEG with the same wealth by level as an 18th level PC, a marilith assassin 2 would have 530,000gp total gear and be a CR 19 encounter, CR 17 + 1 for two non-associated levels + 1 for PC wealth."
As a BBEG for an adventure arc, a CR 18 NPC equiped with PC wealth, who happens to be a marilith assassin 2 with six +1 speed scimitars could be quite appropriate for several stories. Tough luck for any PCs who attempt to fight her...
If Speed is based on Haste, and Speed doesn't stack with similar effects 'such as Haste', then I'm not allowing multiple Speed weapons to grant multiple bonus attacks.
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I did say "NPC marilith." Back in October, in this thread, I posted "if built as a BBEG with the same wealth by level as an 18th level PC, a marilith assassin 2 would have 530,000gp total gear and be a CR 19 encounter, CR 17 + 1 for two non-associated levels + 1 for PC wealth."
As a BBEG for an adventure arc, a CR 18 NPC equiped with PC wealth, who happens to be a marilith assassin 2 with six +1 speed scimitars could be quite appropriate for several stories. Tough luck for any PCs who attempt to fight her...
I don't know where this +1 CR rule came from, I don't see it in the creating NPCs or advancing monsters section both of which limit a marilith's spending on weapons to well under 40,000 gold.
Regardless...
For that same CR 19 you can just add a second Marilith for a total of 22 attacks per round, more hit points, more nasty spells, more.... much more nasty.
An encounter's CR is modified by +1 for a creature having an unusually large amount of wealth, or -1 CR for unusually little (for classed characters). The adventure path I'm running had one such destitute character.
'Fraid I don't recall precisely where it says that though.
An encounter's CR is modified by +1 for a creature having an unusually large amount of wealth, or -1 CR for unusually little (for classed characters). The adventure path I'm running had one such destitute character.
'Fraid I don't recall precisely where it says that though.
Kingmaker says that for a particular NPC because he has PC wealth. The same thing is said of Kaius in Eberron so while it may not be in the book it does seem that adding a + to CR is the norm if the NPC is given extra wealth.
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Kingmaker says that for a particular NPC because he has PC wealth. The same thing is said of Kaius in Eberron so while it may not be in the book it does seem that adding a + to CR is the norm if the NPC is given extra wealth.An encounter's CR is modified by +1 for a creature having an unusually large amount of wealth, or -1 CR for unusually little (for classed characters). The adventure path I'm running had one such destitute character.
'Fraid I don't recall precisely where it says that though.
*SHRUG* it's almost always a waste of CR as the Marilith example demonstrates.
If Speed is based on Haste, and Speed doesn't stack with similar effects 'such as Haste', then I'm not allowing multiple Speed weapons to grant multiple bonus attacks.+1. This is how I read the rules as well.
+ Another.
If you allow two speed weapons due to the 'with that weapon' part, at some point you'd have to allow speed+haste due to the argument 'I make one extra attack with that weapon, and one extra with the other due to haste, and as such they are not stacking'.
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If Speed is based on Haste, and Speed doesn't stack with similar effects 'such as Haste', then I'm not allowing multiple Speed weapons to grant multiple bonus attacks.
This is more or less how I see it also. I just don't think it matters. For the +3 cost on the weapon it's just not a huge deal regardless of how many weapons it affects.
Kingmaker says that for a particular NPC because he has PC wealth. The same thing is said of Kaius in Eberron so while it may not be in the book it does seem that adding a + to CR is the norm if the NPC is given extra wealth.An encounter's CR is modified by +1 for a creature having an unusually large amount of wealth, or -1 CR for unusually little (for classed characters). The adventure path I'm running had one such destitute character.
'Fraid I don't recall precisely where it says that though.
I was actually talking about
Anyhow, so people didn't begin thinking this was just a rule reverse-engineered from adventure paths and common sense, you can find the CR increase / decrease based on wealth on page 398 of the Core Rulebook, near the end of the page.
I would bet we don't get a ruling officially, my opinion would be 2xtra attacks at full bab with 2 haste weapons. There is a "cool" concept with new version of 3.5 comes old argument.
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If Speed is based on Haste, and Speed doesn't stack with similar effects 'such as Haste', then I'm not allowing multiple Speed weapons to grant multiple bonus attacks.
Yes, but it is a speed effect on a different weapon, not on the same one..there is no stacking to be done.
I don't know where this +1 CR rule came from, I don't see it in the creating NPCs or advancing monsters section both of which limit a marilith's spending on weapons to well under 40,000 gold.
Regardless...
For that same CR 19 you can just add a second Marilith for a total of 22 attacks per round, more hit points, more nasty spells, more.... much more nasty.
+1 CR rule came from the two unassociated PC levels. Check the bestiary again, depending on the class, a monster gains +1 CR per character level it has or +1 CR per two character levels, until the levels equal their base HD, after which they get +1CR per class level.
And also, who says you have to stick to the rules? My important villains always had PC wealth based on CR as level.
One more balance consideration: Summoners with multi-armed eidolons that have the Multiweapon Fighting feat.
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It might be different weapons, but the enchantment is the same, and modifies the number of attacks/round. Go farther back, and you're looking at the source of the source being haste, which is pretty clear. Even the speed enchantment talks about not being "cumulative with similar effects". I'd say that another source of the speed enchantment would be a similar effect.
Basically, if you're willing to say that each weapon with speed on it grants an extra attack, then you can do some really crazy stuff. Examples? :D
Speed is a +3 enhancement bonus. So, for the cost of 32,000g, a character can fire off 50 +1 speed arrows or shuriken, or whatever. A rock giant throwing 50 boulders in one turn. Consider that for the cost of 32,000g, you're looking at something like 50d8+50+whatever bonuses the bow has on it + additional attacks. Not all of them will hit, for sure, but that should be enough to kill something worth a lot more than 32000g.
Yes, it's a ridiculous example, but there you have it. Since that really seems like an unreasonable thing to allow, I have to side with speed only applying once per round to the character.
Also, the argument about speed being different sources because it's on multiple items can just as easily be applied to the classic belt of strength. Just because you have someone make you a belt, amulet, boots, and cloak of strength does not mean you get to stack all those bonuses.
There are no errata on ruling's of speed weapon errata.
That said my personal idea of how it works is speed doesn't stack with another speed on the same weapon, or a haste effect.
That two weapons of speed would infact act independently from each other.
A person with two weapons one speed another regular under a haste effect would be able to attack with 2 extra attacks full attack action, one with speed and an offhand one without speed gains the haste attack.
Not everyone will ever agree to one set of rules especially in the regard to speed. This is an old argument.
Magic dealer, a boulder is not ammunition.
Well, the speed enchant says "When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it."
Sounds very "per weapon" to me - it's not an indiscrimiate "+one attack, choose any weapon" like haste, so I wouldn't call it a case of stacking with two weapons.
On the other hand, maybe the devs just thought that something like "When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack, but only with a weapon with the speed enchant" sounded even more confusing or too convoluted.
Magicdealer, I don't think you "wield" ammunition. And even if you did, you had to shoot the same arrow twice.
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A person with two weapons one speed another regular under a haste effect would be able to attack with 2 extra attacks full attack action, one with speed and an offhand one without speed gains the haste attack.
I'm ok with getting two speed weapons for two extra attacks because it's very expensive, doesn't offer all the benefits of haste, and a simple reading of the enhancement seems to indicate it works (see the post by Nixda).
Using a speed weapon and casting haste doesn't satisfy any of the above criteria, it's not nearly as expensive, it offers all the benefits of haste (bonus to attack rolls, bonus to speed, bonus to AC), and it quite clearly calls out it doesn't stack with the spell. Haste is not cast on a specific weapon, it affects the whole character.
Important Question: a Eidolon with the "Amulet of Mighty Fists +3" = "Amulet of Mighty Fists of Speed" get 1 extra attack for every attacks he already have?
No.
Short RAW-based answer: The Amulet can only get special abilities that can be applied to unarmed attacks. This rules out the Speed enhancement, since it requires you to 'wield' the weapon in question.
Longer commonsense-answer: The suggestion is far beyond reasonable. The Speed special ability is an equivalent of a +3 enhancement bonus, and as such, it grants 1 extra attack at full BAB during a full-attack.
Allowing it to affect multiple natural or unarmed attacks in an amulet of mighty fists, for the same price, you are going to double your offensive potential. Ultimately that is going to be 7 extra attacks, compared to the one that Speed is intended to grant. Monk's could abuse this even further, by using different parts of their body for all their attacks in a flurry, effectively granting them 7 extra attacks at full BAB.
The balance-wise distortion of allowing it, should keep any GM from doing so, and hopefully have any player accept that it isn't a good idea.
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So you can add Speed to both ends of a double weapon like a quarterstaff and get 2 extra attacks, correct?