Your E6, E7, E8+ games, campaign

[joela]

Details! What did you about the variant? Likes? Dislikes? Perspective from the GM? From the players? Houserules you must have? Would prefer posts from folks who actually ran/played the variant instead of just read the rules. Thanx in advance!

[TriOmegaZero]

I too am interested.

[Aranai]

Could someone please explain what the E# notation refers to?

[The Eel]

Aranai wrote:

Could someone please explain what the E# notation refers to?

E stands for Epic and the # is the level PCs stop advancing at. After, say, level 6, PCs gain feats after X amount of experience, instead of new levels.

It's designed to keep gameplay within the "sweet spot" of low to mid level. It's also used for "low-magic" games.

Edit: I would also be interested in other GMs/Players experience with E6/7/8. I'm gearing up to run an E8 campaign, and would love to see what worked and didn't work for people.

[TriOmegaZero]

E6: The Game Inside D&D.

TL;DR: How to play a low-magic D&D game by never going above 6th/7th/8th level.

[joela]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

TL;DR: How to play a low-magic D&D game by never going above 6th/7th/8th level.

...but still continue to advance your PC (just without it being wholesale).

[joela]

The Eel wrote:

Aranai wrote:

Could someone please explain what the E# notation refers to?

E stands for Epic and the # is the level PCs stop advancing at. After, say, level 6, PCs gain feats after X amount of experience, instead of new levels.

It's designed to keep gameplay within the "sweet spot" of low to mid level. It's also used for "low-magic" games.

Edit: I would also be interested in other GMs/Players experience with E6/7/8. I'm gearing up to run an E8 campaign, and would love to see what worked and didn't work for people.

The Eel, E8 seems to be a popular stopping point for the E6 ruleset. What made you choose it versus 6th level?

[Spes Magna Mark]

I'm waay behind on Adventure Log updates, but here's my E8 Pathfinder campaign with house rules. :)

[joela]

Spes Magna Mark wrote:

I'm waay behind on Adventure Log updates, but here's my E8 Pathfinder campaign with house rules. :)

Sweet. Thanks!

So, what's your opinion so far of E8? What's your players opinion about it?

[Spes Magna Mark]

joela wrote:

So, what's your opinion so far of E8? What's your players opinion about it?

Well, so far, things are fine, but the PCs are only 4th level. Maybe by the time they're supposed to be 9th level, but they aren't, opinions will change. Using the slow advancement track, however, hasn't been that popular. Still, I have implemented the Ales & Whores rule and even offered bonus XP for helping me with NPC creation. So far, I've had one Ales & Whores taker, and no NPC help. Makes me wonder how much the complaints are real versus just the usual chain-jerking. :)

[MaxBarton]

I'll be honest, I've been looking for something like this... such a simple an beautiful idea. I'll probably change a little bit, but I like this.

I'm just wrapping up my group's final D&D 3.5 game, which got to level 30. With my eyes about to bleed I'm ready to try keeping it at lower levels.

[The Eel]

@Joela,

8th level seems to be a good cut off point, as far as class abilities go. A lot of cleric domain powers are at 8th, 3/4 BAB classes get an extra attack, a lot of the wizard school abilities are at 8th, druids get a 3rd wildshape per day, rogues get a talent and imp. uncanny dodge.... actually, there's just a lot of cool abilities at 8th, in general.

Since full casters get 4th level spells by 7th or 8th, I'm going to rule individually on each one they take to avoid some of the problematic spells.

[cranewings]

I've run E8 twice now and both times I thought that the rules and the power level of the characters were too much for my taste. This is my first crack at E6 but combining the really slow way I'm handing out experience and the easy of moderating the 5th and 6th level peak human NPCs I have written up is really great.

[joela]

cranewings wrote:

I've run E8 twice now and both times I thought that the rules and the power level of the characters were too much for my taste. This is my first crack at E6 but combining the really slow way I'm handing out experience and the easy of moderating the 5th and 6th level peak human NPCs I have written up is really great.

Coolio, cranewings. Any specifics as to why you thought E8 was too high? Feats, spells, etc.?

[cranewings]

joela wrote:

cranewings wrote:

I've run E8 twice now and both times I thought that the rules and the power level of the characters were too much for my taste. This is my first crack at E6 but combining the really slow way I'm handing out experience and the easy of moderating the 5th and 6th level peak human NPCs I have written up is really great.

Coolio, cranewings. Any specifics as to why you thought E8 was too high? Feats, spells, etc.?

A part of the appeal of E6 is that peak humans are still vulnerable to being ganged up on by mortals, especially if you keep strict caps on what kind of bonuses the characters can get from magic items.

In E8, the party just becomes far too strong to fit into the game world. You start getting fighters that are functionally immune to armies and wizards that can cast a host of problem 4th level spells like scry. In E8, Minor Globe of Invulnerability is just too awesome.

Plus, clerics and rogues get their +6 BAB, which irritates me, because it means more dice rolling per turn around the table. If one or two fighters are doing it, that's fine (especially sense I don't allow haste) but waiting on everyone to do it just sucks in my opinion.

[Gnomemaster]

So here's a question: Would anyone buy a campaign setting designed around e6 games? My friend and I have been plotting something like this before I even knew e6 was a thing. Is this fairly widespread? I had never heard of such a thing until I stumbled upon this thread and saw there were 3 threads on this board talking about e6.

What do you find works well in e6 games?

[Helaman]

Gnomemaster wrote:

So here's a question: Would anyone buy a campaign setting designed around e6 games? My friend and I have been plotting something like this before I even knew e6 was a thing. Is this fairly widespread? I had never heard of such a thing until I stumbled upon this thread and saw there were 3 threads on this board talking about e6.

What do you find works well in e6 games?

You really dont need to buy a campaign setting specific to E6 - just tweak what is there.

The first two adventures for Bastards of Erebus work well with LB1 (think its called) that has a fort on the border of Cheliax... also works well with OR as a seperate track for the 1st two adventures of Crown of Fangs work VERY well... You could even combine the two.

The Bastards of Erebus are being funded by Kovosa OR part of the Kovosa thing is an eleborate plot by Cheliax and the woman they married off to Korvosa's king.

Could work very nicely with very little in the way of writing.

[Helaman]

If you can find the old OLD expert level game - Castle Amber, that works well as a level 5-6 Epic level E6 game. The Ambers are generally level 8+ but thats the effect of being immortal and highly magical etc. Curse of Xanathon needs some re-writing but I also love that.

[IdleMind]

I discussed with my players the idea of changing the game to E7, but not giving full casters access to 4th level spells except as "ritual" spells, and they loved the idea.

I find approximating the value of bonuses from magic gear and finding another way to give them to PC's adds to the feel. The only magical items I have in game are consumables, or artifact level magic items, however to compensate; I've created a more in-depth masterwork system.

I also give out Feats EVERY level, but I use an even slower progression than the slow progression in PF core.

Wealth, as a consequence; has become something PC's use to tangibly affect the world, rather than just a PC's trade wealth for direct bonuses type of thing.

All in all, I am getting exactly what I wanted out of E6 (now 7)

-Idle

[Helaman]

Heres something that someone else posted that I liked...

Changes to Existing Skills

Animal Handling

Animal Handling allows the Character to act as if they had the Heal skill when treating animals. Domestic Animals or those the character is familiar with are treated at no penalty. Exotic animals are treated at -2 to the roll.

Healing

Treating deadly wounds restores 1 hit point per level/HD of the creature. If you exceed the DC by 5 or more, add your Wisdom modifier (if positive) to this amount.

The healing makes it a bit easier for the party.

Someone else also suggested making detect magic touch only range - which downpowers it nicely for a 0 level spell.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I do think that Monks are just a tad under powered... I do suggest giving them a +1 AC from level 1 and ramping it up from there.

Here is a feat I added.

Magical Adept (Special – Depending on Campaign)
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: This feat is needed to allow multi-classing into spell caster classes and also enhances spell casting classes who normally do not gain access to level 0 spells.

It is hard if not impossible to tap into the weaker flow of magic if not devoted to its study but there are those who are either in tune with magical harmonies or who have undertaken magical studies that make it possible to branch out into such the realm of magic. If selected by a Paladin or Ranger, the character gains the ability to cast level 0 spells. Paladins select from the cleric list and Rangers from the Druid list. If selected by other non spell casting classes, the character needs to commit to the class the character will multi-class to. From that point they can choose and cast from the appropriate 0 level spells as if a level 1 caster.

No additional 0 level spells are gained once the character multi-classes. Characters already having spell casting levels do not require this feat to multi-class into other spell casting classes.

Demi Humans may not require this feat but may gain a vunerability such as to Iron etc.

[stringburka]

Currently have three games that are at least semi-active:

- One newly started RotRL with "newbie" players (newbies to d20 systems, not to RPG's). We haven't really gotten to the point where it makes a difference yet.

- One homebrew sandbox game where the players have gotten to 7th level plus two feats, they're among the great movers and shakers of the world and three of the PC's are currently are working on founding their own nation, while the fourth has his hands full being the leader of a mage's guild that's currently under attack from it's rival. The plan is for him to move the whole guild to the newfounded capitol later on, and there's currently a lot of political work there (the player is away studying for a year and can't attend to IRL meetings, so we do his part by email) while the other players have more of a combat heavy/troop controlling gaming style right now, assaulting the undead forces of the ruined city that will become capitol.
Things work well with E7, though I've allowed a few things to go beyond 7th level; the Rogue 1/Wizard 6 has access to Phantasmal Killer and Improved Invisibility (and a single illusion only 4th level slot) and the Proffessionalist 6 (remade, PC-worthy Expert class) has 11 ranks in a few skills.

- One hack'n'slashy campaign that uses E7 not so much to simulate a more "realistic" world as to simply keep down the inflating numbers and amount of anti-dungeoncrawl-spells (flight, teleportation and so on).

As I said in the other thread, we use casters as prestige classes accessible at level 2, and have also houseruled Leadership, splitting it into two; "Leadership" which provides followers and has req level 3, and "Inspirational" which provides the cohort and has req level 5; however, Leadership works at increased strength so when players get it at level 3 they can usually have ~10 1st level commoner followers and ~5 1st level npc-classed followers (non-commoners). Other than that, our homemade class "proffessionalist", and the few feats that break the level 7 limit (basically one for each class, a few more for some classes but then exclusive to different builds), and a rebalance on ranged weapons, we play pretty much by "RAW".

[Helaman]

stringburka wrote:

As I said in the other thread, we use casters as prestige classes accessible at level 2, and have also houseruled Leadership, splitting it into two; "Leadership" which provides followers and has req level 3, and "Inspirational" which provides the cohort and has req level 5; however, Leadership works at increased strength so when players get it at level 3 they can usually have ~10 1st level commoner followers and ~5 1st level npc-classed followers (non-commoners).

You have more details on this? Sounds very very good

[stringburka]

Helaman wrote:

stringburka wrote:

As I said in the other thread, we use casters as prestige classes accessible at level 2, and have also houseruled Leadership, splitting it into two; "Leadership" which provides followers and has req level 3, and "Inspirational" which provides the cohort and has req level 5; however, Leadership works at increased strength so when players get it at level 3 they can usually have ~10 1st level commoner followers and ~5 1st level npc-classed followers (non-commoners).

You have more details on this? Sounds very very good

We've had a few different versions and adjusted it over the years, don't have my papers on me now, but this is about it:

Leadership requires character level 3.

Leadership score equals character level plus charisma bonus, plus all the usual bonuses and penalties, and in addition these:
Character has a BAB at least 3/4 of his level +1
Character has a BAB equal to his level +2

Commoners have a CR of level -3 (compared to other NPC classes that have -2), so a 1st level commoner has CR 1/4. Leadership also allow non-human followers, if the player can give a good argument; the wizard guild master for example, has a bunch of followers that are basically free constructs that he's built himself (but isn't included in his WBL).

The table for followers looks like this:
LS__CR 1/4
2____-
3____5
4____6
5____8
6____11
7____15
8____20
9____26
10___33
11___41
et cetera...

That's the table for CR 1/4 followers (normally commoners). You also have higher level followers, to calculate for these you use the same table but two steps lower (making tables in this forum is tedious, that's why I don't write it all up). So a 3rd level paladin taking Leadership with 14 Cha will have a score of 3+2 + 2 bab, +1 fairness, +1 special power, +1 stronghold, -1 moves around a lot = leadership 9. This is about the best case scenario a character can have, though. He'd have 26 commoners, 15 1st level warriors/adepts/whatever (or 2nd level commoners, should he prefer), 8 CR 1/2 dudes (com 3, war 2, clr 1 for example), and 5 CR 1 dudes. But that's the best case scenario; most "regular" character taking it has a score of 5-6.

However, I don't treat followers as being blind slaves; they're basically people who work for him and like doing so, and don't require more pay than food on the table and other basic necessities.

Inspirational requires level 5 but has about the same mechanics as RAW leadership has, but provides no followers.

[Mok]

E6 can be used in a lot of different ways, but for me it is a way of capping magic in the game, specifically spells and magic items.

Some of the spells that are problematic:

Black Tentacles: I've seen this just shut too many encounters down.
Secure Shelter: It just solves too much for resting and is just too "magical" for my tastes.
Charm Monster: Annoying way to end an encounter.
Geas, Lesser: Solves too many city adventures with town officials at your beck and call.
Animate Dead: Spamming undead? No way!
Enervation: A cascade of effects, it just slows down combat even if it is supposed to speed it up.
Discern Lies: Ruins roleplaying drama.
Divination: While I can see this being a cool power to have in the hands of a player who knows how to inject a sense of drama, those players are just too few. Spamming this is annoying and sucks the life out of the game.
Tongues: Another easy way of solving things.
Reincarnate: Dead is dead, that's about all there is to it in E6.
Scrying: This should be the top of the list. If you're in a sandbox game, with no real plot shoving the players forward at a quick pace, this is the most annoying spell. It might be cool to have a satellite-like ops on your target, but in a fantasy game it's just an annoying drama-reducer.

I don't have any problem with these spells being in a campaign in a limited way, where in order to solve quest x you have to go to location y and there either use or get a limited portable use of z.

Such as,
PC: "How are we supposed to find the dark lord now that he is in hiding?"
NPC: "I know of a place, a water fall, where when the moon's light shines through it you can see anyone you are thinking of in the shimmer of the falls."
And then off they go to get that one bit of information.

Overall, what I want out of a game is something that emulates fantasy fiction. Most higher level D&D play is built up in such a way to remove every narrative boundary that normally aids in the drama of a story. E6 helps cut out a lot of that.

On top of that, crafting... yuck! In the good old days there was no crafting. You got what you found and you were happy with it!

In my campaigns potions and scrolls... that's fine. I can have my arm twisted with wands, but that's about it. I have no problem having a sword forged once per campaign by some super NPC smith, but that is about all the latitude I give for crafting.

Even if you have an open magic-mart world, crafting really gets undercut due to spell restrictions, which is great. It makes magic items more rare and wonderful, and are seen as having value beyond what they could be liquidated for in order to upgrade to some hyper specific items which is meta-game knowledge to begin with.

So that's why I prefer E6 over E7 or E8. I want to shut down the drama-breaking spells and magic item crafting nonsense. It's easy enough to add epic level feats back in so that some of the cool and interesting class features you get past E6 are still attainable.

The heavy lifting that has to be done with E6 is the epic level play. Beyond just vetting out a formal list of epic feats to get, the monster list has to be defined and the underlying math of CR challenges needs to be scrutinized so that a GM can adjust things.

Going from Scurvy_Platypus' CR system over at EN World, every five feats is about equivalent to another level in value. So in some vague way if a player is at 6th+E5 level then they are more like 7th level characters. I'd want to see some good old playtesting and math crunching to just see how accurate that is.

The big thing is that at the highest E6 levels, when the players are trying to figure out how to kill a CR 12 dragon, the GM needs a bit more advice in terms of what support the characters need to pull it off. They need to strategize, maybe even bring a small army, but what about some "artifacts" such as a Holy Avenger sword? If that 6th+E6 level Paladin walks into the dragon's den with a holy avenger, what happens? Scrutinizing those kinds of situations and being able to give advice to GMs, or just crafting a whole AP-like module that takes all of that into account is what would be the most valuable.

[Helaman]

Theres an E6 thread on Humans only as a campaign... which means only NPC Fey races (not bound by level restrictions) are in a position to craft the bigger item stuff...

In a more open game, there may be some 'Elder' beings who arent capped or who are capped at level 8 or 10 who are they only agents who can make good stuff.

[VanceMadrox]

I've actually been debating the relative emrits of E6 vs E8 over on en world.

Here's my thoughts:

What are the relative advantages of E6 vs E8?

I'm looking at it mainly from a Pathfinder perspective but appreciate any comments.

For E6 it seems to be slightly easier prep work and keeping 4th level spells out of PC hands.

For E8 meanwhile, it seems to be a more logical breakpoint for most Pathfinder classes.

Does E8 really not keep the "spirit of E6"?

A few points of comparison to consider:

BaB: It's a 2 point difference for all but ½ BaB classes. Some people may not like the extra +2 to hit but I think the biggest issue here is ¾ BaB classes getting an extra iterative attack. This is really a matter of personal preference. Advantage: Tie

Break point: As has been pointed out in Pathfinder 8th level is a better break point for a lot of classes. Barbarians get damage reduction at 7, Rogues get improved uncanny Dodge. Domains and Arcane Schools vary on when they get their last powers. In E6 this could cause people to shy away from ones that don’t get powers till 8th level. In E8 it’s a non-issue. Sure you can make such things EPIC feats but for ease of use, E8 works better here. Advantage: E8.

Hit Points: 2 levels of hit points matter more than 2 levels of BaB and saves. At 8th level characters can have 70+ HP. I can understand the argument for keeping HP more reasonable. Advantage: E6

Leadership: This really depends on whether you like Leadership or not. By RAW Leadership is not available in E6 and it is in E8. This can be fixed easily by making it an EPIC feat but it still’s something to consider though ultimately a matter of preference: Advantage: Tie

Prep time: E6 keeps things a little lower powered so of course prepping is easier. It may only be a 2 level difference but I have seen from experience that 1st level Orcs out of the Bestiary are no challenege for 8th level characters. They’re not much challenege for 6th level ones either mind you but if they get lucky they’re much more likely to take 1 out. This may really just be because of the more HP though. And if you’re a GM who doesn’t mind throwing a few class levels on something then it’s not much difference. There’s plenty of non-humanoid monsters that can still be used straight out of the book. Advantage: E6

Rules ease: A lot of people who run E6 seem to use the lean up approach and grant a lot of abilities available to regular 7th and 8th level characters as feats. Overall it seems like more work to create EPIC feats for everything you do want instead of playing E* and removing what you don’t. Advantage: E8

Saves: The only difference between 6th and 8th level is 1 point in a class’s good saves. Not a big issue. Advantage: Tie

Setting: In E6 you can create a sandbox world and 1st level characters mostly have a chance to successfully run away from anything. In E8 this is less true. Also the difference between 1st and 6th levels humans is less than that between 1st and 8th and overall seems more believable. To me it seems that in an E6 world you can get away with having most people be 1st level but for E8 it makes more sense if the average person is 2nd or 3rd level. Not a huge issue but something to consider. A matter of personal preference once again: Advantage : tie

Spells: A lot of people seem to point out higher level spells as something that complicates things and makes caster too powerful at higher levels. Personally with a few exceptions I don’t see an issue with most 4th level spells. There’s also lesser caster to consider. In E8 Alchemists, Bards, Inquisitors, and Summoners get 3rd level spells, in E6 they don’t. Looking on the lists I don’t see a lot of problematical spells here either. Advantage: E6 but only slightly.

Any thoughts? Anyone actually try both E6 and E8? If so how were your experiences with both?

[The Eel]

After going back and carefully looking over all the classes, spells and various CL for magic items, I've come to the conclusion that E7 is the way to go. Most classes get a nice capstone at 7th. 8th mostly has a new feat or talent or power. Those are easily handled with epic (after 7th) feats. Only 4 classes get 4th level spells, and only a few a day. Spontaneous full casters and lesser casters still get 3rd level spells. Controlling what spells are available goes a long way toward keeping the magical mayhem dialed back. The ability booster items are CL 8, so you don't have to worry about them.

For some of the game-breaker, but still useful and interesting 4th level spells, I plan on making them ritual spells. The ability to learn a single ritual spell will be an epic feat as well.

At 7th, only full BAB classes will get that extra attack, which fits the spirit of full BAB, in my opinion. One issue with 7th is that full BAB are stuck at +7, while 3/4 BAB is stuck at +5. To allow access to some of the "greater" feats, I'm making a feat that allows a character to treat their BAB as one higher for purposes of feat availability.

In essence, cutting advancement off at 7 gives some good "capstones", while allowing for some slight "leaning upward" feats that emulate 8th level. PCs will have, on average, 4.5 more hitpoints vs. E6, which is about one hit from a decent enemy. Sandbox worlds are still consistent and challenging at 7th, as well.

[MaxBarton]

VanceMadrox wrote:

Rules ease: A lot of people who run E6 seem to use the lean up approach and grant a lot of abilities available to regular 7th and 8th level characters as feats. Overall it seems like more work to create EPIC feats for everything you do want instead of playing E* and removing what you don’t. Advantage: E8

I'd disagree with this. If people are 6th level they'll want abilities from level 7 and 8. If they're 8th level they'll want abilities from 9 and 10. This would be a tie at best in my opinion.

[VanceMadrox]

How would you handle Cleric Domains and Wizard Schools that don't normally give powers till 8? Would characters have to spend an EPIC feat for that?

Really the more I look at it the more EPIC 6 and EPIC 8 feel like different games but both have their good points.

For E6 ritual magic almost seems like a must.
For E8 I think you can get by without it.

If I ever get around to running an E8 game I think one change I will make is that 4th level spells cannot be made into scrolls. With only a few 4th level spells per day for a caster without a way to increase it I think it would be much more manageable.

As for Maxbarton's point I still say advantage E8.
The way most classes break down 7-8 is a much better break point. There are not as many abilities at 9-10 that people will fight for. A straight E8 game without a leaning up approach seems very possible. An E6 game seems to need the leaning up approach.

[Mortuum]

If you ask me, you get the best of both if you use E7 with 4th level spells replaced with class features from later levels.

Witches get a major hex, wizards get their level 8 school power, clerics get their level 8 domain powers and druids get something like more or better wildshape.

Stringburka also suggested giving rangers Swift Tracker at 7th level in another thread, and I agree.

I haven't tested this, mind you, but it seems to score higher based on the criteria you've been talking about. You probably wouldn't need many upward leaning feats, either. Classes get cool capstone abilities, you get more feat slots to personalise your character (both because you get a feat at 7th level and because you don't have to spend a feat to get the capstone ability), you're not quite as powerful as 8th level characters and a ritual system won't be so different from what you're supposed to have at that level if you use one.

[Beckett]

Personally, my single experience with E6 was disappointing. It screwed casters, and a few classes too much. This was 3.5, not PF, but I dont think I would really enjoy anything below E8 to E10.

I dont really see the point of having seperate BaB if 1 of 3 gains any real benefit for it. The lack of actual custimization until "epic" is mostly boring not fun, it also tends to rob both players and DMs of cool encounter options except for watered-down versions.

Too much work for way to little benefit in my opinion. Maybe if you used the Spell Point variant from UA, but doubled it, and dont go out of your way to screw with divinitions as well? Thats poor DMing most of the time, not "broken" spells, on my opinion.

[stringburka]

VanceMadrox wrote:

How would you handle Cleric Domains and Wizard Schools that don't normally give powers till 8? Would characters have to spend an EPIC feat for that?

They still get spells, and generally, the worse special abilities of a school/domain, the better the spells (generally).

For E6 ritual magic almost seems like a must.

For E8 I think you can get by without it.

Note that there's more or less ritual magic by RAW in PF, through item creation. Or not RAW, but that gray area between rules and houserules where custom magic items, monsters and NPC's reside.

Quote:

If I ever get around to running an E8 game I think one change I will make is that 4th level spells cannot be made into scrolls.

I'm usually going the other way, limiting spellcasting far more than consumables. But you're probably right that if they gain the ability to cast 4th level spells, they probably shouldn't just be able to easily write them down.

I'd also like to make a shameless plug for Gallons per Wile, a short booklet on magic-usage with low-level gaming as focus. There's some rules on ritual magic, lower level item creation and so on.

[joela]

stringburka wrote:

I'd also like to make a shameless plug for Gallons per Wile, a short booklet on magic-usage with low-level gaming as focus. There's some rules on ritual magic, lower level item creation and so on.

Oh! What's this...?

[Helaman]

stringburka wrote:

I'd also like to make a shameless plug for Gallons per Wile, a short booklet on magic-usage with low-level gaming as focus. There's some rules on ritual magic, lower level item creation and so on.

I too am interested.

Incidently I am torn between E6 and E7... Pathfinder seems better situated for E7 in its progression but its that final HD/BAB and access to higher magics (including for Bard/Ranger-Paladin/sorcerer with 3rd level spells) that make it a toughie...

Then you've got how little Wizards get out 7th level (level 4 spells aside) in someways and how much in terms of duration/benefits etc in others.

[VanceMadrox]

At E7 with no 4th level spells though you wind up with the mid casters being potentially more powerful magic wise..

With 3rd level spells Bards get Lesser Geas, Scry, and Tiny Hut.

Summoners are even worse though. With 3rd level spells they get Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, and Stoneskin.

Unless you would prevent them from getting 3rd levels?

[Helaman]

I was looking at this the other day and it seems to take away some of the glamour of being a dedicated caster to allow bards access to level 3 spells.

In E6 only full BAB classes (or cross classes) can ever hope to get that 2nd attack - a reward for being the combat specialists.

Full casters (Sorcerers at 6th), ever get to level 3 spells at 5th Meaning that is reward for being a dedicated caster.

Bard doesnt seem to fit this mold.

Taking it to E8/E7 gives Rangers/Paladins access to level 2 spells as well... taking some shine away from other casters (just a little).

More or less I think that if you remove 4th level spells from the game, as well as hitpoints past 6th level then E7-8 may work. I definitely not in favour of 3/4 BAB classes getting their 2nd attack. To that end E7 seems to fit better what I want ... however E8 does seem to give the best Capstones... The sorcerer does miss on their level 9 power at that point though.

The attraction of E6 for me is the relative vunerability of the characters and the need to avoid scaling NPCs... who will always average around level 1-2, with a sprinkling of 3-4s and the very rare 5-6. E6 is meant to make the characters FEEL Epic even at level 3-4.

I like that in most situations/towns/barfights, the baddest SOB in the Valley of the Shadow of Death is gonna be a PC. Sure they may have to toe to toe with someone of the same level with NPC classes from time to time but the edge will go smart play and the PCs. The NPC strength is the organisations they belong to and their sponsors and patrons. The players can beat a patrol of the milita but not the whole militia itself or even 2-3 patrols that are called in because the characters are too much of a handful for a single patrol.

And because of this players will be more realistic in what they do, how they fight (non lethal damage, holding back on spells etc)

Its great to brag that the town guard needed to call up everyone of its members and a few caravan mercenaries to take you down in the barroom brawl and drag your arse to jail.

At E10 or unrestricted play, the NPCs must grow (to the point you have level 6 Sargeants etc) or become gnats, unworthy of noting... when players can consider taking on a city from the inside as a group the situation is totally misplaced.

[VanceMadrox]

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand the point of E6/E8.

My cincern with E7 is that it ultimately makes Bards and Summoners better casters than wizards and clerics.

[TriOmegaZero]

VanceMadrox wrote:

At E7 with no 4th level spells though you wind up with the mid casters being potentially more powerful magic wise..

With 3rd level spells Bards get Lesser Geas, Scry, and Tiny Hut.

Summoners are even worse though. With 3rd level spells they get Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, and Stoneskin.

Except those classes are spontaneous casters, with no way to swap spells known. They each can get only two of those spells on their list, and cast them a few times a day. They can never find scrolls of any of those spells to increase the times they can cast them or let them cast something different. So while it may be stronger than the wizards 3rd level spells, it is all he ever has.

[joela]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

VanceMadrox wrote:

At E7 with no 4th level spells though you wind up with the mid casters being potentially more powerful magic wise..

With 3rd level spells Bards get Lesser Geas, Scry, and Tiny Hut.

Summoners are even worse though. With 3rd level spells they get Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, and Stoneskin.

Except those classes are spontaneous casters, with no way to swap spells known. They each can get only two of those spells on their list, and cast them a few times a day. They can never find scrolls of any of those spells to increase the times they can cast them or let them cast something different. So while it may be stronger than the wizards 3rd level spells, it is all he ever has.

Yah. Unless there's a feat to allow such a swap, spontaneous spell-casters will never have the flexibility under the E# system (e.g., "Bard: What's the treasure?" GM: "A couple of non-magical rings and, oh! A spellbook!" Bard: "Oh. Give it to the wizard over there...." Wizard: "Squee! Look! More second and third level spells!" Bard: grumble grumble....

[Makarion]

(dotting for reference)

[Epic Meepo]

I've toyed with the idea of running an E1 campaign in which every feat grants 1 hit point and 1 skill rank in addition to its normal benefits. (No, that's not a typo. I really did just type E1.)

[Ascalaphus]

In ye olde times, 2nd ed, after level 9 you only got 1 hp per level...

[Mortuum]

That's one impressive feat of thread necromancy right there. Well done.

My concern with E1 is that character classes are missing some of their most vital abilities, which have to be put at levels 2 and 3 to keep dipping under control. That and the game is extremely swingy at that level.

It's an interesting thought though.

[ShadowcatX]

I don't think I'd care for E1 personally. Too swingy and casters have too few resources to really be exciting.

And on the ancient topic, I'm a bigger fan of E8. That classes generally gain a good ability at level 8 makes it feel more capstone like to me. Sure, if you don't knock out the upper level spell casting it can be more powerful than E6, but I don't mind letting casters have the upper most levels when the martials are generally the best at lower levels.

[Cranefist]

I've run several E6 games in pathfinder and 2 E8 games.

For me, E6 is much much nicer. Pretty much everything I dislike about Pathfinder, from complexity of turns to campaign changing spells to increased GM prep time appear by level 8. There just isn't any point to it, when 6th level characters can trash hordes of respectable Centurians.

When running E6, if you are running a low level campaign world, you might be shocked at how quickly the PCs become significant. Most GMs let you spend 2-3 years getting up to level 12 and at that point you are still just holding gear for the king's minions (aka railroad security) such as his 20th level court mage, 20th level paladin son, or 20th level king's priest.

Even on the slow experience table, PCs can hit level 6 in as many months if you drag your feet, and then if you give your world some internal consistency the king will need to come to the PCs for help, if they don't outright displace him.

[Epic Meepo]

Mortuum wrote:

My concern with E1 is that character classes are missing some of their most vital abilities, which have to be put at levels 2 and 3 to keep dipping under control. That and the game is extremely swingy at that level.

A quick glance at the base classes shows that only the cavalier, the magus, and the paladin have important signature abilities which are gained on 2nd and 3rd level. Everyone else just gets a few 'pick this or that' abilities which could easily be converted into epic feats.

Although I'm now starting to think E3 would be rather interesting. The first three levels of each class make a very tidy package, and three class levels would allow characters to double or triple class before going epic.

[Fake Healer]

dot

[Mortuum]

The bard gets versatile performance, the monk gets fast movement and evasion, the ranger has his combat style (which is a signature part of the class), the rogue has evasion, all the primary prepared casters get to be better at magic than the partial casters, the inquisitor gets detect alignment and solo tactics, the alchemist gets poison use and the ninja gets ki and a trick.

[Mordo]

I'm still looking to get a good E5 system based on the Beginner Box. Where once you get your 1st epic level, PC that kept to a single class do get a capstone ability.

Actually, the only capstone ability that I'm sure will make it, is that Fighter get a +1 to BAB and an iterative attack (+6/+1) this will set them apart from other full BAB classes which have more abilities in their first few levels.

And as far as sorcerers not getting 3rd level spell, I'm fine with it, this set them more apart from the wizard.

So if any of you have good idea for meaningful capstone abilities, please let me know :)

[Ascalaphus]

Double the sorcerer's spells per day. Yes, all of them. If you want to set them apart from the wizard by not giving them third-level spells, give them something that might come close to being as good.

As you may have noticed, I prefer stopping at even levels so that sorcerers and wizards stop equally.