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I know you HAVE to move with the enemy, but what if you have an ability that tells you that you don't have to move with the enemy you bull rush (like the Pathfinder spell, Inheritor's Smite, for example) and you use it on an enemy grappling you? Does he get knocked off or do you have to move with him?
DM's call. Mechanically while you're grappled there's no actual force holding you in place. I'd probably give the grappler a circumstance bonus of +2 not to go anywhere and if they fail they move and the grapple ends.
Technically you do not have to move with the enemy when you bullrush in Pathfinder. Read the rules carefully.
"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."
So if you have a very good bull rush check, or are just a really big monster, you can bat another creature away.
1.) If I had to make a strict ruling about bull rushing someone out of grapple I would more or less treat it like a net. They are still grappling (holding on to you) and are not dislodged.
2.) In a less strict, more in favor of comedic effect, I'd allow the Bull Rush combat maneuver check stand in for the grapple check to break/reverse the grapple. Counting the foes bonuses to CMD against both grapple and bull rush attempts. While you take any and all penalties that apply, such as only using one hand in the grapple. Essentially don't try this on a master grappler dwarf.
@BigNorseWolf, *edit* I disagree, there is a force hold you in place, and that is the guy currently grappling you.
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I think Biggy´s referencing the fact that success on a Grapple check gives the opponent the Grappled condition until your next round, with no other caveats. So the Grappler can be Teleported across the world, but you (and them) would still have the Grappled condition until their next turn per RAW.
A reasonable house-rule here IMHO is that if the Grappled -for whatever reason- is no longer within the Grappler´s reach, that the Grappled condition (for both) is ended. I might rule that for Humanoids, (i.e. non-Tentacles monsters) Pin is dropped down to Grappled if the grappled is moved away from adjacent squares, but within Reach.
When Bullrushing an opponent Grappling with you (which doesn´t instantly end the Grappled condition per RAW), you would be taking a -2 penalty per the Grappled Condition (though this is reduced for special cases, e.g. Brutal Pugilist Barbarian Archetype).
I don´t see a big problem with allowing Bullrush as an effective ´alternate escape method´ from Grapple. Per Jason Buhlman´s words on the subject, Grappled doesn´t really correspond to much more than ´having a hold on you´. If you are Pinned, you CAN´T attempt to bullrush the Pinner.... Though your friends could.
This topic seems worthy to add to the long-awaited Grapple FAQ.
Oh I quite agree that I would like to see a more fluid interaction between Combat Maneuvers. Hopefully Ultimate Combat :-) .
I won't get into extra effects like teleport with this. However when you have the grappled condition you cannot move. Strictly speaking Bull Rush is trying moving the creature when it can't. Similar issues if was in a net/entangled or backed against a wall. That is why my strict ruling was a flat out "no, it doesn't' work, your bull rush fails to move the creature."
I don't particularly like that as it doesn't offer room for say a Wizard buddy with Hydraulic Push the option of shoving a Choker off say the party rogue, but that's how it reads out. The Choker would "have a hold of" the rogue and by a strict reading that hold is enough for it not to moved. I would agree logically that if you can best the CMD to break the grapple while using a bull rush you'd overcome that hold and sending the choker flying off. Although that could lead to funny situations where you don't break the hold but have enough to push the choker... causing both the choker and the rogue to get shoved about a bit.
Grappled says YOU can´t move, not you can´t BE moved.
BY your own actions No, by other effects, sure.
Entangled´s description speaks of entirely preventing movement.
(Ignoring the fact that it isn't a listed option for breaking a grapple)
"A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity."
That's what it says. It doesn't specify the movement but I won't go there as there is an exception the grapple rules where the aggressor in a grapple can move everyone involved. My point is the aggressor is restraining the other creature. Does that restraint magically vanish when a bull rush is applied?
Taken the other way, lets say I want to bull rush the rogue and not the choker. Clearly the choker is preventing the other grappled character from moving. This goes to how entangled impedes movement.
"Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force."
Could you blast the rogue free of the choker. My answer would be no as the choker is an opposing force. Flipping that around and targeting the choker, why is it suddenly sent flying while it is still applying that restraint to the other grappler.
For what Razz's case, why does the 'grip' of the aggressing grappler suddenly vanish and allow him to go flying back 5 or more feet.
On a different point the grapple hasn't ended and the grappled condition still applies. If one wants to take a circuitous logic path, then the person not sent flying will be moved into an adjacent empty space wherever the other guy lands. Following the rules outlined when a grapple starts.
I stress, in reading the rules, it seems fairly clear to me that two or more grappling creatures are connected/linked/restrained/tethered/what-have-you together. Until that is broken they either can't be moved, or they all have to be moved together.
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(Again I completely agree that a good house rule is to allow other combat maneuvers to go against the CMD of the aggressor in a grapple to break it. It should even become an official rule in Ultimate Combat or other source.)
Things I can think of could cause problems with regard to a grapple:
• APG, Drag
• APG, Reposition
• One or more participants being Paralyzed
(Ignoring the fact that it isn't a listed option for breaking a grapple)
I´m the one pointing out that doing this DOESN´T break the Grapple per RAW.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.That's what it says. It doesn't specify the movement but I won't go there as there is an exception the grapple rules where the aggressor in a grapple can move everyone involved. My point is the aggressor is restraining the other creature. Does that restraint magically vanish when a bull rush is applied?
See above. (Per RAW, no, even if they Teleported across the continent)
Taken the other way, lets say I want to bull rush the rogue and not the choker. Clearly the choker is preventing the other grappled character from moving. This goes to how entangled impedes movement.
"Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force."
Entangled isn´t grappled. ´Nuff said.
For what Razz's case, why does the 'grip' of the aggressing grappler suddenly vanish and allow him to go flying back 5 or more feet.
This is very simple per RAW. I´m not sure your problem with this thematically, because it seems like everybody else in this thread doesn´t have a problem with there being some way to Bullrush a Grappler/Graplee away from their Grapple. As it happens, you CAN Bullrush such targets per RAW, though the Grappled condition mysteriously doesn´t expire (unless you house-rule), which is a RAW problem that equall applies to Teleports or Gaseous Form.
On a different point the grapple hasn't ended and the grappled condition still applies. If one wants to take a circuitous logic path, then the person not sent flying will be moved into an adjacent empty space wherever the other guy lands. Following the rules outlined when a grapple starts.
Exactly the rules section I was going to mention. The target is moved adjacent to you when you ESTABLISH a grapple, they are not continually MAINTAINED in an adjacent position after any event that may occur. Search for ´grapple kraken -20´, and learn how a creature with reach and who doesn´t gain the grappled condition themself (like the kraken) can conveniently grapple it´s targets and then move away, outside their reach (but within it´s own, under my proposed house-rule requiring for grappled condition not to expire) meaning their targets can´t attack back (but could try to escape, since that is an exceptional option of grapple that doesn´t seem to require threatening like normal attack rolls).
I stress, in reading the rules, it seems fairly clear to me that two or more grappling creatures are connected/ linked/ restrained/ tethered/ what-have-you together. Until that is broken they either can't be moved, or they all have to be moved together.
See above. It ain´t so.
Again I completely agree that a good house rule is to allow other combat maneuvers to go against the CMD of the aggressor in a grapple to break it. It should even become an official rule in Ultimate Combat or...
That sounds like a decent house-rule, but as per above, there´s nothing stopping the effects of a Bullrush from applying to a Grappled target... Though I´ve also pointed out the wierdnesses of the Grappled condition itself (when moved outside Reach of the Grappler).