Command Undead (feat) Conflicting orders?

[mr bones]

Good afternoon,

Have a question about the Command Undead feat, that doesn't appear to have been answered previously. Need to take the answer back to my DM to discuss, so an "official ruling" would also be helpful.

So I'm a Necromancer (Wiz) and we're cleaning out another Necromancer's tower. We encounter some Shadows, and I utilize my Power over Undead ability (i.e. Command Undead feat). I am 8th CL, have a couple skeletons I've made but no other other undead in my "Command" pool.

One of the Shadows fails it's Will save vs. my channeling, and falls under my control. I order it to move to the square adjacent to me. Once it gets there, I order it to disengage from the combat (i.e. go wait in the next room which is free of PCs) so that I do not have an immediate problem of my party getting attacked / attacking it.

At this point, it comes up that the Shadow is "controlled" (either by the Necro whose tower we're raiding, or maybe one of his Lieutenants) which triggers the "conflicting orders" part of feat which states "If an undead creature is under the control of another creature, you must make an opposed Charisma check whenever your orders conflict."

My question is: Who am I making an opposed Charisma check with? The undead I'm giving orders to? Or whoever it is who might "control" them at the time?? The original "controller" is not physically present or within line of sight giving orders.

This became a recurring problem with other intelligent undead in the tower; they'd fail the save, I'd order them to come to me (which they did) and then to disengage (triggering a Char check with apparently the high-lvl vampire who "controls" them) causing them to become disobedient and my party having to put them down. The more I read, the more I'm convinced it's the actual undead I'm controlling that I need to be making the opposed check with - currently I'm not getting much bang for my buck!

Anybody know?

Thanks,

Bones

[mr bones]

*bump*

Anyone have a thought on this? It doesn't appear to have been addressed anywhere else.

Thanks,
Mr. B

[reefwood]

mr bones wrote:

*bump*

Anyone have a thought on this? It doesn't appear to have been addressed anywhere else.

Thanks,
Mr. B

I don't have any books on hand to confirm an official ruling, but I'm pretty positive that if have to make an opposed Charisma check to give order to a creature you control with magic, and the reason for the check is that someone else is controlling it with magic too, then it would be the someone else that is opposing you and makes the opposed Charisma check.

The controlled creature doesn't want to be controlled by either of you, and some spells do require checks or allow new saves is the control creature is forced to do something it wouldn't normally do. In this instance, it is the creature that makes the check or save, but no one else is controlling it, so this doesn't work for your situation.

[HaraldKlak]

You are making the check against the other controller. It is a tough one, when the opponent is a high level vampire, but that the rules.

I didn't know that you needed to make charisma checks for every order that are conflicting, if there is another controller. I have just made an opposed charisma check when you try to assume control, to see who of you are the strongest.

In effect you might just do this. As the vampire isn't present, you just need to override his orders once, as new ones need to be given verbally.

[Drejk]

HaraldKlak wrote:

In effect you might just do this. As the vampire isn't present, you just need to override his orders once, as new ones need to be given verbally.

Note that in case of intelligent undeads they might received quite complex orders that won't get into effect until much later (like, every day at dawn check if all windows have their shutters closed - and just before the dawn the sapient skeleton goes and check and you don't know what he actually does but you still can command him to stop, and possibly ask what he is doing).

[mr bones]

Cool, thanks for the input. Overall I really like how Command Undead works in Pathfinder vs. 3.5, but this aspect seems to be sticky. It may just be how my DM is running it, so I'll have to hash it out w/ him.

Bones

[Erwin Othello]

Command Undead Thread!

Sorry for the thread necro but this seems to be a good spot for this question.

How many times can there be opposing orders? Just once in a battle, or can there be dueling orders given each round with multiple charisma checks?

[Melkiador]

"Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells that remove the subject's ability to act. Mental controls that don't remove the recipient's ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys." -from the magic chapter.