Catching on fire?

[Type2Demon]

The RAW says:

Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out—that is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those whose clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.

So, Which Spells would trigger this effect?

Would Alchemist fire do it (beyond the initial 1D6 second round damage)?

[Type2Demon]

Type2Demon wrote:

The RAW says:

So, Which Spells would trigger this effect?

By the description it seems that Burning Hands & Fireball do not catch you on fire, but a spell like Flaming Sphere or Wall of Fire would (making them tougher than I originally thought.)

Would the "catch on fire" reflex save happen after saving throws for the spell? or just use the same saving throw?

[TwilightKnight]

This can be answered IMO by an analogy to other situations. For example, using the Heal skill to aid another in recovering from a poison, you use the DC of the poison rather than some arbitrary/general DC. Similarly, I would rule that the DC for a save vs. catching on fire would be 15 against mundane causes like flasks of oil, but magical causes like a Wall of Fire, would require a save vs. the spell's DC.

[reefwood]

Type2Demon wrote:

Type2Demon wrote:

The RAW says:

So, Which Spells would trigger this effect?

By the description it seems that Burning Hands & Fireball do not catch you on fire, but a spell like Flaming Sphere or Wall of Fire would (making them tougher than I originally thought.)

Would the "catch on fire" reflex save happen after saving throws for the spell? or just use the same saving throw?

Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

You are correct in looking at the specific spells to determine if they can catch a creature on fire.

Burning hands does have an instantaneous duration, and instantaneous fire spells don't normally catch things on fire, but this particular spell description does state that it can catch things on fire.

Fireball doesn't catch things on fire.

I hadn't even thought about flaming sphere, but it is non-instantaneous, and even the spell description says it does ignite flammable substances. Wall of fire looks good for catching on fire too.

One thing too keep in mind is that there needs to be something to catch fire. Clothes, hair, and equipment are listed as possibilities. A skeleton without any flammable equipment would not catch fire. Also, I probably wouldn't have a wooden weapon or wooden shield catch fire because it seems like it would be more difficult to catch them on fire. Iinstead, I'd be thinking of equipment that was easier to ignite, such as a backpack.

As for the Reflex save DC... I think it should always be DC 15 as listed in the rule. For spells, the DC to half or negate the effect is based on the spell level and caster's mental ability score, but once you get blasted by magic fire and take damage, the Reflex save to avoid catching fire is kind of like putting out standard flames as if you have started to catch fire but then put it out right away. Oh, and so this save would be made after and separate from the spell save.

Also, alchemist fire specifically describes how it works for 2 rounds, and even that second round can be put out before it takes effect, so I would think that it only lasts 2 rounds even if not put out.

[azhrei_fje]

reefwood wrote:

Also, I probably wouldn't have a wooden weapon or wooden shield catch fire because it seems like it would be more difficult to catch them on fire.

Well, that's really a GM call. Some shields were actually coated with a kind of tar that would be easier to ignite, and among some barbarian tribes this coating was infused with poison (for use in something like PF's shield bash) and those coatings were often based on tree sap (also rather flammable in many cases).

Although I would probably not change the Reflex save DC but rather if the creature fails it's save, I'd move the flammable object higher in the list of equipment that might be affected (the same list used when a creatures rolls a nat1 on its Reflex save).

[TwilightKnight]

reefwood wrote:

Also, alchemist fire specifically describes how it works for 2 rounds, and even that second round can be put out before it takes effect, so I would think that it only lasts 2 rounds even if not put out.

[threadjack]Interesting. I had never realized that the description for Alchemist's Fire states, "On the round following a direct hit..."

We have always played that the duration of the fire is ongoing unless extinguished. Your interpretation may be correct and makes fighting swarms at low level that much more difficult. Has there been an official ruling, you can reference, on this topic, from the developers? I wonder why catching fire from Alchemist's Fire would be treated differently that catching fire from other sources.
[/threadjack]

[reefwood]

TwilightKnight wrote:

reefwood wrote:

Also, alchemist fire specifically describes how it works for 2 rounds, and even that second round can be put out before it takes effect, so I would think that it only lasts 2 rounds even if not put out.

[threadjack]Interesting. I had never realized that the description for Alchemist's Fire states, "On the round following a direct hit..."

We have always played that the duration of the fire is ongoing unless extinguished. Your interpretation may be correct and makes fighting swarms at low level that much more difficult. Has there been an official ruling, you can reference, on this topic, from the developers? I wonder why catching fire from Alchemist's Fire would be treated differently that catching fire from other sources.
[/threadjack]

I think this is pretty straightforward, so there probably has been no big push for an official ruling.

It does seem a bit odd and does seem to work different than the normal catching on fire rules, but whenever there is a discrepancy like this, you are supposed to go with the more direct rule, such as what it says in the description.

My guess for why alchemist's fire doesn't catching you on fire is that it doesn't engulf you in flames like a spell might. It just burns the parts of your body that get with the flaming goo. Kind of like being hit with a flame thrower will catch you on fire, but being with a flaming log will burn but probably not set you ablaze.

[Doomed Hero]

It is patently absurd that alchemist fire, alchemist bombs, fireballs and red dragon's breath can't actually light things on fire.

This is one of the areas of the system that I have a big problem with.

[Voomer]

Actually, the fireball description specifically states that it sets thigs on fire: "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area."

[Ravingdork]

If fireball set people on fire, then what does an unaugmented mythic fireball do?

[Rockafella]

Mythic fireball deals more damage (2d6) and uses its own DC for the reflex save rather than the default DC 15.