Never played a Pathfinder fighter type before and this is my stab at an iconic Dwarf Tank. Need advice to tweak this. Theme is a one handed hard swinging wall.
Dwarf (20 point build PFS)
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 6
1: Barbarian 1, Feat: Power Attack
2: Fighter 1, Feat: Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
3: Barbarian 2, Feat: Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow - my ranged weapon)
4: Fighter 2, Feat: Step Up (+1 Str)
5: Fighter 3, Feat: Blind Fighting
6: Fighter 4, Feat: Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe)
7: Fighter 5, Feat: Extra Rage
8: Fighter 6, Feat: Shield Focus (+1 Str)
9: Fighter 7, Feat: Following Step
10: Fighter 8, Feat: Greater Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
11: Fighter 9, Feat: Greater Shield Focus
12: Fighter 10, Feat: Step-Up and Strike (+1 Str)
I like the barbarian for the extra 10' of movement, rage and uncanny dodge. It's worth the two level dip for the loss of one feat.
I also like the looks of the feat Lunge and the Dorn-Dergar Master. Seems like the Dwarven dorn-dergar should provide a trip on a hit, but apparently it doesn't.
-Swifbrook
Just My Ideas
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Never played a Pathfinder fighter type before and this is my stab at an iconic Dwarf Tank. Need advice to tweak this. Theme is a one handed hard swinging wall.
Dwarf (20 point build PFS)
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 61: Barbarian 1, Feat: Power Attack
2: Fighter 1, Feat: Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
3: Barbarian 2, Feat: Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow - my ranged weapon)
4: Fighter 2, Feat: Step Up (+1 Str)
5: Fighter 3, Feat: Blind Fighting
6: Fighter 4, Feat: Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe)
7: Fighter 5, Feat: Extra Rage
8: Fighter 6, Feat: Shield Focus (+1 Str)
9: Fighter 7, Feat: Following Step
10: Fighter 8, Feat: Greater Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
11: Fighter 9, Feat: Greater Shield Focus
12: Fighter 10, Feat: Step-Up and Strike (+1 Str)I like the barbarian for the extra 10' of movement, rage and uncanny dodge. It's worth the two level dip for the loss of one feat.
I also like the looks of the feat Lunge and the Dorn-Dergar Master. Seems like the Dwarven dorn-dergar should provide a trip on a hit, but apparently it doesn't.
-Swifbrook
Just My Ideas
6 Charisma is painful. I'd drop the Dex to 12 to get the charisma up to at least 8.
I would also go full fighter, as being able to wear heavy armor without movement penalty is one of the best Dwarf features.
Also, going a completely different way you could look at the holy warrior feat in the campaign setting. Full BAB cleric with D10 in exchange for giving up your domain spells. Uses the wisdom bonus, and with spells you can be a buff tank.
But it's all preference in builds.
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I second the full fighter. Full plate is key. Also invest favored class into HP since your goal is to build a wall.
I would tone down DEX and bring up CON. Tone down STR and bring up WIS. W/out a good will save, your fighter will be running in terror, which is quite embarrassing to say the least. Iron Will and Improved Iron Will should further help. There are plenty of ways to raise your dmg, so I would not worry about the slight decrease in STR.
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I Disagree with some points.
6 Charisma is painful. I'd drop the Dex to 12 to get the charisma up to at least 8.
Fighters do the talking with there we pone, not charisma, ill drop that down ton 5, for another two points to play around with.
I agree that you should go pure fighter, and maybe take toughness, and full plate.
You don't need skills, and you get a min of one skill a lvl.
Drop intelligence down to 7 and that will give u 6 points tottle.
Up that con to 16, and that will to 11. 4rth lvl get that will up to 12.
First lvl take toughness also.
First lvl you would have 10 (for fighter) +3 (for con) + 3 (for toughness) +1 (for class skill.) 17 hp at first lvl isn't bad.
After 3rd lvl you would gain 6-15 hp a lvl. with the average being 10.5 hp per a lvl. that would make an awesome tank.
Iron will and improved iron will would help with the low will.
str would help a ton with the to hit and dmg.
the only mental stat magic item you need is the one that ups will, but its not that important.
Don't dwarves automatically get full speed regardless of what armor they are wearing :P ?
The Dwarf has a base speed of 20', it's not reduced by armor. Barbarian increases that to 30' like most of the rest of the party. I've found gnomes and halflings are often mounted on riding dogs to increase their speed and the dwarf is the slowest one in the party.
Want a Dwarven Tank?
- Go full Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) FTW
Interesting .... not what I was thinking about but I'll look at it some more.
...How about the Stalwart defender- isn't that the iconic dwarf tank?
Also I think the iconic dwarf barbarian and the iconic dwarf tank are two different things. Look at Warhammer there are Slayers and there are Ironbreakers- two different things.
I see what you are trying to do with the build, and I like it.
I think you can make an effective tank as a sword and board user even without doing the twf/sheild bashing lines. While damage output will be less than a two handed fighter, I don't think its so much less that an opponent will just ignore you. At 10th level you are probably talking a difference of about 7 pts of damage per hit (3 from power attack, probably around 3 from str, and 1 to 2 from larger weapon). Thats probably not enough difference for an enemy to just shrug off your attacks, unless you are having trouble overcoming his DR.
I can see the benefits you are getting from the barb levels. However, I don't think the barb's fast movement ability will apply when wearing heavy armor, even factoring in the dwarf's ability to wear armor without loss of speed. Uncanny dodge is nice, but a lot of its benefits are covered by blindfighting. And the one rage talent won't give a whole lot, as they are only useable while raging, and the best ones have bonuses based on barbarian levels, which you won't have a whole lot of.
I'd suggest dropping the barb levels and focus on using the dwarven waraxe and shield.
I'd change ability scores to Str 17, Dex 15, Int 13, Cha 7, Int 10, Wis 10, Con 14. You can get the Str back to 18 at lvl 4. This opens up the twfing feats as well as combat expertise.
I'd go two weapon fighting fighter archetype, using the shield as the off hand attack.
I'd drop Rapid Reload and Extra Rage. That, plus the extra fighter levels gives 3 additional feats. I'd probably drop blindfighting too since you already have darkvision, although I admit the benefits of the feat are very nice.
I'd try to pick up the dwarf feat that boosts your hardiness by +2. Thats +4 to saves vs spells and spell like effects and poisons....very nice.
I'd get twfing and maybe combat reflexes. I'd try to pick up the shield bashing feats, with an eye towards greater bull rush. It gets expensive feat wise, but it does allow you to keep your damage output up, as well as apply tactical maneuvers via shield bashing while still attacking. And of course you keep a nice AC.
This gives a versatile build. You can go sword-and-board to keep a solid AC, especially with the defensive flurry ability. Your damage output shouldn't suffer too much since you still get the offhand attack. When you need to push through and do more damage you can put away the shield and wield your axe two handed.
At higher levels you can do some amazing things with this as a twfing archetype fighter. You can treat the heavy shield as a light off hand weapon, or just go with the light shield for reduced twfing penalties. You can make an attack with both axe and shield as a standard action (still getting the bullrush off the shield bash). And at 13th level you can make attacks of opportunity with both weapons (again still getting the bullrush!!)
This makes for a good tank, as you will have great AC, decent magical defenses (thanks to the dwarven feat and abilities), and solid damage output due to the shield bash. Plus you have the bull rushing for tactical effect without any loss to damage ouput.
At higher levels you could even look at the shield feats such as Missile Shield and Ray Shield. Those just seem like fun.
(And as an aside, I am wondering if it would be possible to put together a shield basher with bull rush plus expertise/imp trip/greater trip. So that one could do a trip attack with the primary attacks and a bull rush with the shield in the same round. That would be pretty neat to pull off.)
...How about the Stalwart defender- isn't that the iconic dwarf tank?
Also I think the iconic dwarf barbarian and the iconic dwarf tank are two different things. Look at Warhammer there are Slayers and there are Ironbreakers- two different things.
See I think of tanking as getting in their face and trading hits.
Stalwart defenders suck because they cant move. Monsters just go around them.
The Pouncing barbarian soaks hits and going around doesn't help cause he just chases/kills you.
Well, if you don't like the stalwart defender (understandable) is there a non-barbarian dwarf tank option? See the thing is I can picture dwarf barbarians fine, but I can also imagine a heavier armored dwarf who doesn't have class features that lower his ac.
Again, there's nothing wrong with the barbarian, I just think an all-fighter build is comparable. (also a less mobility based build at that, I don't see dwarfs as being whirling dervishes).
I like the build just would not call it a tank. I would call it a striker or basher
As others have mentioned, dwarven fighters are known for being able to carry heavy armor and even be over-encumbered without penalty to movement.
My thoughts...
You're a small step up from most one-handed fighters with a dwarven waraxe if you choose sword & board. If you need to do the extra damage, drop the shield and 2-hand the waraxe. Unless you plan on buying 'mithril fullplate' (likely very late in your career if you ever get access), I wouldn't take Barbarian. 'Boots of Striding and Springing' may be easier to come by, I don't know for certain though.
Also, I wouldn't take any feats for the crossbow and definitely not rapid reload BEFORE pointblank or precise shot. As a tank you're suppose to be on the front line taking/blocking hits, a crossbow will only come in handy for things you cannot reach, like fliers. Besides that, once you get iterrative attacks, a longbow can fire as many times as you can attack... it's a better buy for someone who is proficient with it.
Dwarven Tank = Health & Armor Class
Str: 16
Dex: 13
Con: 15 +2 (17)
Int: 10
Wis: 10 +2 (12)
Cha: 10 -2 ( 8)
Dwarven Tank = w/Combat Expertise
Str: 15
Dex: 13
Con: 15 +2 (17)
Int: 13
Wis: 10 +2 (12)
Cha: 10 -2 ( 8)
These are the stat blocks I recommend. You could dump CHA or WIS further to increase CON(or STR on 2nd build) to 16 which becomes and 18, but Diplomacy and Perception are kind of important in PFS.
2 dips in barbarian levels will work fine even if fast movement is negated. Especially if you go for the Drunken Brute archetype, who loses fast movement to drink potions as move actions without provoking attacks of opportunity, allowing you to buff and heal more easily, and thus keep standing much longer. Get "Good for what ails ya" and you can shake off some pesky status effects that impedes your effectiveness.
Also barbarians;
- get Perception as a class skill
- allows you to reduce int to 8 and still get the emergency single ranks in climb and acrobatics to get the trained bonus and take 10 on routine checks.
- gets said skills as class skills
- base their rage stuff on CON, which is a good stat for a dwarf
The drunken brute archetype also justifies low charisma, and makes for a very "typical" angry dwarf warrior, getting wasted and tearing into the enemy. Also, the only social skill that is trained for you is Intimidate, meaning you won't be pleasant to speak to anyway. Heck, drop Int to 8 as well, and spend your single fighter skill-point on perception.
Also, you can't afford plate on low levels, go for barbarian and wear scale- or chain-mail, and when you ding 3, and might be able to afford said plate, you go fighter. It is a sound leveling tactic.
Regarding the two weapon fighting Sword & Board style: You need buckets of dex (19+ base to qualify for all the feats), and a bunch of feats to do it properly. The build I suggest does the bare-bones, and relies on an archetype, and is gambling on getting a suit of mithril plate at later levels.
If you take the Shielded Fighter archetype, you can safely set max dex to 16, as it loses out on Armor Training, meaning you will benefit from high dex when you get mithril full-plate later on. You are already a dwarf, so the movement thing is a non-issue for you. Get Acrobatics up to 3 ranks, and fighting defensively more or less covers the lack of combat expertise. Also, shielded fighter gets abilities to cover allies and impede enemies, which is what a tank is all about.
So, this is how I would make him:
Dwarf (20 point build PFS)
Str: 17
Dex: 15
Con: 16
Int: 9 (had a spare point, and somehow, 9 looks better than 8)
Wis: 10
Cha: 5
1: Barbarian 1, Feat: Power Attack
2: Fighter 1, Feat: Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
3: Barbarian 2, Feat: Shield Focus
4: Fighter 2, Feat: Blind Fighting (+1 Str)
5: Fighter 3, Feat: Improved Shield Bash
6: Fighter 4, Feat: Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe)
7: Fighter 5, Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
8: Fighter 6, Feat: Shield Slam (+1 Str or Dex if you have mithril plate)
9: Fighter 7, Feat: Toughness or Iron Will (depends on the campain)
10: Fighter 8, Feat: Greater Shield Focus
11: Fighter 9, Feat: Shield Master
12: Fighter 10, Feat: Greater Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe)(+1 Str or dex. see above)
Notes on changes:
- eliminated Step Up chain to open up for shield chain, as step-ups depletes your swift actions, which you will want to use on archetype abilities.
- switched out rapid reload to make room for shield feats. If you have to do ranged combat, throw stuff, or at long range; get a bow. I know, I know, "it's not right for a dwarf to use elf-weapons", but in a game that arbitrarily favors the bow and reduces the crossbow to a toy, what can you do?
- kept Blind Fighting, as it is a really nice asset against pesky miss chances.
Now your dwarf will have buckets of AC & HP, and pretty decent saves and offense. With Shield Slam, you will be able to reposition some enemies, and knock those damned rogues out of flanking. Until lv11 and Shield Master however, I would not recommend relying too heavily on the extra attack from two-weapon fighting, but it is a good asset against easy-to-hit enemies.
Edit: Is it a move action to draw a potion? If so, what the heck is the POINT of the "drink as a move action" for the drunken brute? Could just as well be a standard that does not provoke, as you need to make a double move action nonetheless.
I like the direction you are taking the character. I still don't see how the 2 levels of barbarian are worth the tradeoff, however.
Yeah, its a move action to take out a potion. So it will take two moves to do pull it out and drink it. And its a bit difficult to do when you have a shield in one hand and an axe in the other. I'd rather have fast movement to be honest; at some point you might get mithral heavy armor (although I'd probably prefer adamantine!) and could make use of it. And there might be times when you are without your heavy armor..such as an ambush at night, or your armor has been sundered or what not.
Uncanny dodge is great, but it is nearly completely duplicated by a combination of blindfighting and combat reflexes. More so for a character with darkvision. If taking blindfighting I don't see much benefit for uncanny dodge and a 2nd lvl of barbarian. I'd rather have the two fighter levels for an extra feat (combat reflexes if AoO while flatfooted is a concern) and faster fighter feature advancement.
I agree that having lots of dex for a sword/board warrior is advantageous so as to get extra attacks. However, I am with you on that just a single offhand attack is sufficient, as it is more for tactical combat than damage dealing. And while Imp TWFing can be nice at higher levels, the Greater TWFing is almost never worth it, as an additional off hand attack at -10 from BAB isn't all that useful...at least not worth a feat to get it. So I think a dwarf shield basher with only 15 dex is just fine to get the single offhand attack.
I do think that the TWFing archetype works better than the shielded fighter archetype. I'd consider Defensive flurry and Active defense to be about equal. While I really like the ability to share your bonus with adjacent allies as a swift action, it does require taking penalties to your attack through either combat expertise (probably a necessary feat) or fighting defensively/total defense. Defensive flurry is nice because it is triggered anytime you make a full attack with both weapons, and doesn't require any to hit penalites (aside from the TWFing penalties which are incurred anyways).
Where I think the TWFing archetype moves ahead is with the Twin Blades vs. Shielded Fighter. Twin Blades gives the attack and damage bonus to all attacks with both weapons when making a full attack. Shielded Fighter only gets a bonus to shield bashing. I think Twin Blades is clearly superior here and will offer more overall benefit than Shielded fighter.
I'd also consider Double Strike and Equal Opportunity to be stronger than Shield Buffet. The ability to make two attacks as a standard action (and getting the sheild bash in for a bull rush) and as an attack of opportunity (also getting a shield bash attempt!) is really strong. Shield Buffet is nice, but before its a swift action you won't want to give up your offhand attack, and even when its a swift action it will preclude using Active defense to help your allies. So its an ability that probably won't see much action.
So I guess I'm saying that generally speaking, I like the TWFing archetype better than the shielded fighting archetype for a shield basher..even one who is only looking at making a single off hand attack. But I do see the benefits of the Shielded Fighter if wanting to offer aid to allies via active defense.
I like the direction you are taking the character. I still don't see how the 2 levels of barbarian are worth the tradeoff, however.
Yeah, its a move action to take out a potion. So it will take two moves to do pull it out and drink it. And its a bit difficult to do when you have a shield in one hand and an axe in the other. I'd rather have fast movement to be honest; at some point you might get mithral heavy armor (although I'd probably prefer adamantine!) and could make use of it. And there might be times when you are without your heavy armor..such as an ambush at night, or your armor has been sundered or what not.
Uncanny dodge is great, but it is nearly completely duplicated by a combination of blindfighting and combat reflexes. More so for a character with darkvision. If taking blindfighting I don't see much benefit for uncanny dodge and a 2nd lvl of barbarian. I'd rather have the two fighter levels for an extra feat (combat reflexes if AoO while flatfooted is a concern) and faster fighter feature advancement.
I agree that having lots of dex for a sword/board warrior is advantageous so as to get extra attacks. However, I am with you on that just a single offhand attack is sufficient, as it is more for tactical combat than damage dealing. And while Imp TWFing can be nice at higher levels, the Greater TWFing is almost never worth it, as an additional off hand attack at -10 from BAB isn't all that useful...at least not worth a feat to get it. So I think a dwarf shield basher with only 15 dex is just fine to get the single offhand attack.
I do think that the TWFing archetype works better than the shielded fighter archetype. I'd consider Defensive flurry and Active defense to be about equal. While I really like the ability to share your bonus with adjacent allies as a swift action, it does require taking penalties to your attack through either combat expertise (probably a necessary feat) or fighting defensively/total defense. Defensive flurry is nice...
The potion problem for dual-wielders can be solved with a weapon cord from the Armory, allows you to recover your weapon as a swift action. Roundabout, but it kinda works. No swifty for defense tho.
And I agree, when taking blind-fighting, you offset half the bonus of uncanny. Barbarian levels can be dropped for more fighter, which means more feats and such. Single classing is just better in PF.
I am GMing a game with a fullblown sword&board TWF fighter, and he is simply DESTROYING everything in his path. He is quite optimized, runing vanilla fighter, but has 25 point buy, meaning he can get ALL the benefit of being a full-blown fighter. Also has AC to boot, but be prepared to pay through the nose, as you need LOTS of stuff.
I will be coming back and seeing how this one progresses, as I have been curious to see a decent dwarf build.
After reading all your advice, I have taken some of it and here is the updates (in bold). Again, comments welcome. Iconic Dwarf Tank. Theme is a one handed hard swinging wall.
Dwarf (20 point build PFS)
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 6
1: Barbarian 1, Feat: Power Attack
2: Fighter 1, Feat: Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
3: Barbarian 2, Feat: Iron Will
4: Fighter 2, Feat: Step Up (+1 Str)
5: Fighter 3, Feat: Improved Bull Rush ???
6: Fighter 4, Feat: Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe)
7: Fighter 5, Feat: Toughness (Extra Rage as an alternate)
8: Fighter 6, Feat: Shield Focus (+1 Str)
9: Fighter 7, Feat: Following Step
10: Fighter 8, Feat: Greater Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
11: Fighter 9, Feat: Greater Shield Focus
12: Fighter 10, Feat: Step-Up and Strike (+1 Str)
3rd: dropped the Rapid Reload, I'll just take a repeating heavy crossbow for my ranged weapon and take the -2 TH penalty. Yes, bow is the best route to go but I've played an archer before and I'm building an all around character here, not a max-min.
I still like the barbarian for the extra 10' of movement and I think I should be able to get mithral full plate by 7th or 8th level. Also, as built, I have 9 rounds of rage, or two to three encounters per day.
TWF means:
---------
More Dex = less somewhere else
2+ feats
-2 to all hits ==> less available for power attack
-1 to AC for light shield instead of heavy shield
all for 1d4 spiked light shield bash damage
Part of the changes are because of the good advice/reminder of the fighter failing a will save and being possessed. Have also considered the natural armor granting feat.
Oh, and Cha really is a dump score. I can't see where I'd need it. As for diplomacy, it's not going to be one of my skills so I'll pick a faction that is more about action then talk. :-)
Reading your opinions with extreme interest ......
-Swifbrook
Just My Ideas
3rd: dropped the Rapid Reload, I'll just take a repeating heavy crossbow for my ranged weapon and take the -2 TH penalty. Yes, bow is the best route to go but I've played an archer before and I'm building an all around character here, not a max-min.
Being more effective doesn't seem like min/max'ing to me, more like common sense, not to mention the price difference (longbow vs. repeating light). If you're going to shoot randomly into combat because you have no other options, why not do so more times? More chances to roll that 'Nat 20' and drastically better odds at hitting without one.
MORE penalties (while holding a shield), depending on size of the crossbow:
...you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. -4 to -14
...you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. -4 to -16
For what it's worth, I like the newest build. I like to roleplay as much as the next guy, but I personally wouldn't spend 250+gp on something I wasn't proficient with and likely very ineffective using.
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am GMing a game with a fullblown sword&board TWF fighter, and he is simply DESTROYING everything in his path. He is quite optimized, runing vanilla fighter, but has 25 point buy, meaning he can get ALL the benefit of being a full-blown fighter. Also has AC to boot, but be prepared to pay through the nose, as you need LOTS of stuff.
I will be coming back and seeing how this one progresses, as I have been curious to see a decent dwarf build.
Can you expand on that and show us what he looks like, feats, weapons, topys.....thanks
Can you expand on that and show us what he looks like, feats, weapons, topys.....thanksam GMing a game with a fullblown sword&board TWF fighter, and he is simply DESTROYING everything in his path. He is quite optimized, runing vanilla fighter, but has 25 point buy, meaning he can get ALL the benefit of being a full-blown fighter. Also has AC to boot, but be prepared to pay through the nose, as you need LOTS of stuff.
I will be coming back and seeing how this one progresses, as I have been curious to see a decent dwarf build.
Lemme see now, he is lv12, and using 25 point buy (madness, I know) I think his base stats was something like:
Str 18Dex 16 -> 19 for GTWF
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 12
His feat advancement was kinda hard to replicate, since they changed all the time, as we ran with retraining rules from 3.5 at the time, until I realized that giving two casters free access to all 3.5 source material meant they could likely beat the AP with only 2 characters.
But he ended up with the TWF chain, including Double Slice and TW Rend, he has Shield Bash/Slam/Master/Focus/G. Focus, Power Attack (duh), Weapon Focus+Spec Longsword... lemme think... I might have forgotten something, but those are the core feats.
Since we are playing Kingmaker, you get virtually infinite downtime and infinite money, and the crafting rules allow you to make anything, as long as you take the relevant feats and pimp your Spellcraft, so the fighter has a +2 or +3 Bane of Fey Longsword, a +4 Holy Shield, a +3 or +4 Mithril Full-plate, +4 Belt of Physical Perfection (Str+4/Dex+4/Con+4), +3 cloak of resistance, Ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Protection +2 or so, Amulet of Natural Armor +2 and... yeah, don't remember the rest. Pretty much a Christmas-tree.
His to hit is somewhere around +27, easily topping 30 after basic buffs, and his AC is closer to 40 than 30. When he full-attacks, he deals somewhere between 130 and 200 damage.
I have had a Dwarven fighter tank in a recent Module we played. It worked very well.
Id recommend going full fighter. Get 13 Dex, so you can take dodge for 1 extra AC, and 13 means you qualify for Dodge, and still only get a +1from dex for that Full Plate (the adamantine one of course). I also went for some Shield Focus feats, just for the extra AC. I chose a Weapon Master package to make up for the axe and board build, no shield bashing feats.
The boots of springing and striding solves the speed issue, makes you just as fast as non monks/barbarians in the party. (also note that the barbarian speed boost only works in no/light/medium armor!
If you still want the rage. Rather dip into Stalwart Defender (Dwarven Defender). I was surprised on how much damage I ended up doing with my waraxe :)
As a side note: Fighters don't need charisma, but its a bad idea having any ability under 8. some undead might want to hit you, and a 1d6 cha damage from somewhere shouldn't be able to drop u in one round.
6 Charisma is painful. I'd drop the Dex to 12 to get the charisma up to at least 8.
Charisma has zero effect in a game where the DM isn't trying to ping you for having low Charisma. It affects no saves, defenses, or offensive abilities. It only affects social skills and not only will anyone with less than 14 Charisma NEVER be a face, but no social skills are on a Fighter's class skill list.
PS. I don't know if it has been said, but the Barbarian dip is a waste. Fast Movement is disabled by the rules that apply it before the Dwarven abilities stop your speed from being reduced. Dwarven hardiness can't keep you at 30' movement speed if you never get the extra 10'.
My advice: Dump the entire TWF idea. You aren't going to be able to do it and hit anything or you aren't going to hurt anything. Keep Dex low and pump Str. And keep Wis and Con up. Eventually, you will NOT be able to keep your armor up high enough to matter because you aren't a caster and you will want alot of HP.
6 Charisma is painful. I'd drop the Dex to 12 to get the charisma up to at least 8.Charisma has zero effect in a game where the DM isn't trying to ping you for having low Charisma. It affects no saves, defenses, or offensive abilities. It only affects social skills and not only will anyone with less than 14 Charisma NEVER be a face, but no social skills are on a Fighter's class skill list.
PS. I don't know if it has been said, but the Barbarian dip is a waste. Fast Movement is disabled by the rules that apply it before the Dwarven abilities stop your speed from being reduced. Dwarven hardiness can't keep you at 30' movement speed if you never get the extra 10'.
My advice: Dump the entire TWF idea. You aren't going to be able to do it and hit anything or you aren't going to hurt anything. Keep Dex low and pump Str. And keep Wis and Con up. Eventually, you will NOT be able to keep your armor up high enough to matter because you aren't a caster and you will want alot of HP.
TWF sword & board can work, it depends on the rest of the party:
- if you have a buff-caster or two,- there is a friendly crafter,
- you get lots of downtime to make all the gear needed, and
- you get enough money to make said gear
...the TWF can work well. Or at least, the one in my kingmaker game hits anything, and is not hit by anything except the bosses.
Barbarian dip can be *interesting* with archetypes. But rarely powerful, and certainly not optimal. If you play a relaxed game, you can do it for the lulz and the flavor. If you play a harder game... no.
How's this for an interesting idea: A split-personality dwarf (sanity no doubt eroded from Dwarf Fortress) Who is a barbarian leading into..stalwart defender. At the start of every combat choose offense or defense.
Fun!
?
I still want to build a Paladin Dwarf Tank. Less feats to boost AC and or Attack/damage with. But easy heals for yourself (swift LoH).
And I love the Idea of the Cha penalty for a Class who would like to have it high :)
I still want to build a Paladin Dwarf Tank. Less feats to boost AC and or Attack/damage with. But easy heals for yourself (swift LoH).
And I love the Idea of the Cha penalty for a Class who would like to have it high :)
You could very easily get by with a 12 in Charisma- a dwarf paladin is playable, more so then other charisma based characters.
I still want to build a Paladin Dwarf Tank. Less feats to boost AC and or Attack/damage with. But easy heals for yourself (swift LoH).
And I love the Idea of the Cha penalty for a Class who would like to have it high :)
One possibility:
Dwarf Divine Defender (APG) Paladin (20 Point Buy)
14 Str (5), 16 Dex (10), 14 Con (2, +2 race), 10 Int (0), 10 Wis (-2, +2 race), 12 Cha (5, -2 race)
Magic Resistant (APG, replaces Hardy), Relentless (APG, replaces Stability)
P1: Two-Weapon Fighting
P3: Shared Defense (APG, replaces Mercy); Improved Shield Bash
P4: +1 Dex
P5: Divine Bond (Armor; APG); Double Slice
P7: Shield Slam
P8: +1 Cha
P9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
P11: Shield Master
P12: +1 Cha
P13: Two-Weapon Rend
P15: Power Attack
P16: +1 Cha
P17: Stunning Assault
P19: Channel Smite
P20: +1 Cha
Some of the feats can be switched around or replaced, as desired. A belt of giant strength, boots of striding and springing, and headband of alluring charisma are priority items. A light (bashing) shield will probably suffice, possibly with shield spikes (depending on how much you want to invest in magical enhancements).
I still want to build a Paladin Dwarf Tank. Less feats to boost AC and or Attack/damage with. But easy heals for yourself (swift LoH).
And I love the Idea of the Cha penalty for a Class who would like to have it high :)
One possibility:
Dwarf Divine Defender (APG) Paladin (20 Point Buy)
14 Str (5), 16 Dex (10), 14 Con (2, +2 race), 10 Int (0), 10 Wis (-2, +2 race), 12 Cha (5, -2 race)
Magic Resistant (APG, replaces Hardy), Relentless (APG, replaces Stability)
P1: Two-Weapon Fighting
P3: Shared Defense (APG, replaces Mercy); Improved Shield Bash
P4: +1 Dex
P5: Divine Bond (Armor; APG); Double Slice
P7: Shield Slam
P8: +1 Cha
P9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
P11: Shield Master
P12: +1 Cha
P13: Two-Weapon Rend
P15: Power Attack
P16: +1 Cha
P17: Stunning Assault
P19: Channel Smite
P20: +1 ChaSome of the feats can be switched around or replaced, as desired. A belt of giant strength, boots of striding and springing, and headband of alluring charisma are priority items. A light (bashing) shield will probably suffice, possibly with shield spikes (depending on how much you want to invest in magical enhancements).
Wow, okay.
What I had in mind was more like:
Str 14
Dex 13
Con 14/16 (racial)
Int 10
Wis 10/12 (racial)
Cha 15/13 (racial)
And then go for some good old fashioned axe and board, using the shield just for defense, focusing on boosting AC and defense more than damage. Starting with Shield Focus and feats like blind fight. I am not all that worried about dealing the most damage, the Dwarven Waraxe and smite.
I still want to build a Paladin Dwarf Tank. Less feats to boost AC and or Attack/damage with. But easy heals for yourself (swift LoH).
And I love the Idea of the Cha penalty for a Class who would like to have it high :)
One possibility:
Dwarf Divine Defender (APG) Paladin (20 Point Buy)
14 Str (5), 16 Dex (10), 14 Con (2, +2 race), 10 Int (0), 10 Wis (-2, +2 race), 12 Cha (5, -2 race)
Magic Resistant (APG, replaces Hardy), Relentless (APG, replaces Stability)
P1: Two-Weapon Fighting
P3: Shared Defense (APG, replaces Mercy); Improved Shield Bash
P4: +1 Dex
P5: Divine Bond (Armor; APG); Double Slice
P7: Shield Slam
P8: +1 Cha
P9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
P11: Shield Master
P12: +1 Cha
P13: Two-Weapon Rend
P15: Power Attack
P16: +1 Cha
P17: Stunning Assault
P19: Channel Smite
P20: +1 ChaSome of the feats can be switched around or replaced, as desired. A belt of giant strength, boots of striding and springing, and headband of alluring charisma are priority items. A light (bashing) shield will probably suffice, possibly with shield spikes (depending on how much you want to invest in magical enhancements).
Wow, okay.
What I had in mind was more like:
Str 14
Dex 13
Con 14/16 (racial)
Int 10
Wis 10/12 (racial)
Cha 15/13 (racial)And then go for some good old fashioned axe and board, using the shield just for defense, focusing on boosting AC and defense more than damage. Starting with Shield Focus and feats like blind fight. I am not all that worried about dealing the most damage, the Dwarven Waraxe and smite.
This stat array could work fairly well- you'll want to boost your charisma at level four, and boost strength every time after that. (I should note that a human, half elf/orc would be better, but the dwarf is playable- that's the difference between munchkinry and optimizing, if your idea was to play a dwarf paladin, play one, but do it right)
I should point out that by using a shield rather than a two-handed weapon, you are reducing you damage output greatly- by one third before figuring in smite (smite does close the gap though, percentage wise) but I really can recommend a twf dwarf paladin, it's simply too MAD. the above example trashed charisma, which is worth it's weight in gold for Paladins. Lay on hands may be the Paladin's best feature.
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The barbaric dip is mostly useless; rage doesn't scale very well, and it keeps you from getting the fighter bumps properly. It also lowers your AC and stops you from getting Will bonuses as fast. The HP is a whopping 1 extra, and medium armor is terrible.
Axe-and-board really does reduce your damage by a significant amount relative to just swinging a greataxe; moreso when you take the two-handed line. On the other hand, it does up AC by 5-6; generally well over what you need in PFS.
I'd go:
Str: 18
Int: 7 (with the 1 skill in perception; there's a dwarven trait that makes it class. Fighter skills are mostly a waste),
Wis: 14
Dex: 12 (there are dwarf feats if you really want 1 AC from a feat)
Con: 17
Chr: 5 (if you're gonna dump, why not get 2 extra?)
Dwarven pally is as awful an idea as it sounds on paper. Dwarven zen archers are really invulnerable and do good damage, but suck for 2 levels. Plus you want a front-liner.
Why not make a Polearm Master or Phalanx Soldier Fighter
Why not make a Polearm Master or Phalanx Soldier Fighter
Besides a magic item or dip in Barbarian or Cleric, is there another way to increase your base speed for a dwarf from 20'?
Why not make a Polearm Master or Phalanx Soldier FighterBesides a magic item or dip in Barbarian or Cleric, is there another way to increase your base speed for a dwarf from 20'?
Why increase your speed?
Why increase your speed?Why not make a Polearm Master or Phalanx Soldier FighterBesides a magic item or dip in Barbarian or Cleric, is there another way to increase your base speed for a dwarf from 20'?
Dunno, lots of people can't stand being slow, they have a point, but it's not the end of the world, really.
I would go paladin and at level 10 prestige my way into holy vindicator but that's just me. Heavy Armor helps and holy vindicator gives you tower shields and with a little int (i would go with the warrior of holy light so you can moot wisdom) gain expertise for a little higher armor class. With the stigmata from the holy vindicator ups your AC a lot. In fact i would play it with an elf, sure the con takes a hit but you gain the int and dex you need for higher reflex saves and some AC. I know this isn't what you were looking for but it's my idea for a tank.
Besides a magic item or dip in Barbarian or Cleric, is there another way to increase your base speed for a dwarf from 20'?
Being mounted is another way to increase your mobility without increasing YOUR speed. Though unless it's a companion of some sort, 15HP is gonna make for a short lived ride and somewhat annoying to replace after every encounter... assuming the encounters are viable for mounted combat at all.
If you absolutely MUST HAVE (RIGHT NOW) the +10' movement I'd say just take the level of Barbarian, it's about what makes you happy, not everything has to be "optimal". If you think you can wait a bit, save money for the boots, which is what I did with my current character.
(And you know what, when the super speedy monk(AC 18) runs by me at 50' and gets knocked on her butt almost every time, I just kinda giggle, then shrug and do what a dwarf paladin in fullplate/hvy shield(AC 27) does... trudge into combat and survive. Eventually every party comes to terms with who IS and who ISN'T the tank, it's a fun but tedious process I've come to expect. SOMETIMES, the tank's NEW party figures it out faster than the OLD (aka dead) one, lol.)
some good old fashioned axe and board, using the shield just for defense, focusing on boosting AC and defense more than damage. Starting with Shield Focus and feats like blind fight. I am not all that worried about dealing the most damage, the Dwarven Waraxe and smite.
I really can recommend a twf dwarf paladin, it's simply too MAD. the above example trashed charisma, which is worth it's weight in gold for Paladins. Lay on hands may be the Paladin's best feature.
The character I suggested was designed to optimize both offense (paladins apply Smite Evil bonuses to all attacks against a target) and defense (good Dex, shield use). A 14 Cha plus a headband of alluring charisma +4 at 12th level still gives you a Smite Evil with +4 on attack rolls, +12 (+24) on damage rolls, and +4 deflection AC without taking negative modifers in any other ability score; not to mention the +4 on attacks and damage from 14 Str and a belt of giant strength +4 (which can be applied in full to off-hand attacks with Double Slice). Boots of striding and springing plus Slow and Steady means the dwarf moves at 30 ft in medium or heavy armor, too.
With a 20 point buy, you have to make some sacrifices. If you're OK with not being able to take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, then a you can start with 14 Str, 15 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 11 Wis, and 13 Cha (8 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Cha if you can accept the hit to Int). In this case, I'd recommend taking Power attack at 9th level and Vital Strike at 15th level for increased damage when you can't full-attack.
After reading all your advice, I have taken some of it and here is the newest version. Yes, I finally dropped the barbarian levels. Not sure this is best, but it's done. Again, comments welcome. Iconic Dwarf Tank. Theme is a one handed hard swinging wall.
Dwarf (20 point build PFS)
Str: 17
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 6
Dropped Iron Will for a higher Wis score and a +1 Will save trait. Dex bonus of +2 gives two additional AOO with Combat Reflexes, and other typical bonuses. Need my 10 Int as I'm using the 2 skill points - Kn(Engineering) and Kn(History) ... 2nd trait makes history a class skill. That's for the RP aspect and to give him something to do outside combat. I thought about dropping Cha to 5, but can't put the 2 points into anything worthwhile.
1: Fighter 1, Feat: Power Attack, Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe)
2: Fighter 2, Feat: Step Up
3: Fighter 3, Feat: Combat Reflexes
4: Fighter 4, Feat: Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe) (+1 Str)
5: Fighter 5, Feat: Blind Fighting
6: Fighter 6, Feat: Improved Bull Rush (or Lunge)
7: Fighter 7, Feat: Shield Focus
8: Fighter 8, Feat: Greater Weapon Focus(Dwarven Waraxe) (+1 Str)
9: Fighter 9, Feat: Following Step
10: Fighter 10, Feat: Greater Shield Focus
11: Fighter 11, Feat: Step-Up and Strike
12: Fighter 12, Feat: Greater Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe) (+1 Str)
-Swifbrook
Just My Ideas
Just wanted to chime in and say it's great to see so many different builds for the same character concept.
Each one has its own merits. Great stuff.
First off, go straight Fighter 20. Use the Weapon Master alternate class feature from the Advanced Player's Guide. Pick the Craftsman and Magic Resistant alternate racial features from the Advanced Player's Guide. Use your favored class points for hit points.
Now, your ability scores. Make STR and CON your highest two. Make sure you have at least a 13 DEX (for the +1 to AC when wearing full-plate).
Buy a set of masterwork crafting tools. See if your DM will let you craft your armor and weapons BEFORE the start of the campaign as part of your back story (if he does, woo-hoo!). You should have the following Craft bonus: 3 (class skill) + 1 (rank) + 2 (racial) + 2 (tools) + x (INT) = +8 (or more). If you have at least a +1 or +2 bonus in INT, you can take 10 on those Craft checks and start the game with some pretty sweet gear. And even if the DM doesn't let you do this, you will have sweet gear not long after starting.
Here's your feat spread. Assume dwarven waraxe, tower shield, and full-plate armor. Craft them with adamantine ASAP (so the DM can't destroy your cheese when it becomes so).
1: Weapon Focus, Shield Focus
2: Iron Hide*, Weapon Guard +1
3: Dodge, Weapon Training +1
4: +1 STR, Weapon Specialization
5: Master Craftsman, Reliable Strike (1/day)
6: Heavy Armor Optimization***, Weapon Guard +2
7: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Weapon Training +2
8: +1 STR, Greater Weapon Focus
9: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization***, Mirror Move
10: Greater Shield Focus, Weapon Guard +3, Reliable Strike (2/day)
11: Mobility, Weapon Training +3
12: +1 STR, Greater Weapon Specialization
13: Vital Strike, Deadly Critical (1/day)
14: Improved Vital Strike, Weapon Guard +4
15: Spring Attack, Weapon Training +4, Reliable Strike (3/day)
16: +1 STR, Greater Vital Strike, Deadly Critical (2/day)
17: Melee Weapon Mastery** (slashing), Critical Specialist
18: Penetrating Strike, Weapon Guard +5
19: Greater Penetrating Strike, Unstoppable Strike, Deadly Critical (3/day)
20: +1 STR, Weapon Supremacy**, Weapon Mastery, Reliable Strike (4/day)
*Advanced Player’s Guide
**Player’s Handbook II
***Races of Stone
This should be your AC progression throughout the campaign if the DM is giving you the "treasure-appropriate" amounts listed in the Gamemastering Section.
AC 25 (1st level)
AC 26 (2nd level)
AC 27 (3rd level)
AC 28 (6th level)
AC 32 (7th level)---at this level, you can start crafting magic armor, and if you're putting a rank in Craft (armor) every level, you should be able to easily start crafting +4 full-plate (costs 8,000gp, which takes 8 days to craft, and the DC is only 22...17 base + 5 for lacking the correct caster level)
AC 33 (8th level)---enhance full-plate to +5
AC 39 (9th level)---enhance tower shield to +5
AC 40 (10th level)
At 11th level, you get Mobility (+4 AC vs. attacks of opportunity), and against giants, you get another +4 AC (that's a +8 AC vs. giants that you run up to during combat and take a swing with their reach...AC 48!!!)
Is this the kind of tank you want? The Vital Strike feats, Spring Attack, and Weapon Training alternate class feature keep your attack and damage on par with other builds, while you pretty much can't be hit by anything that couldn't hit a dang pit fiend.
Dwarves rule.
Actually, here's an even faster AC progression, capping off at 9th level.
1: Weapon Focus, Shield Focus
2: Iron Hide*, Weapon Guard +1
3: Dodge, Weapon Training +1
4: +1 STR, Weapon Specialization
5: Master Craftsman, Reliable Strike (1/day)
6: Heavy Armor Optimization***, Weapon Guard +2
7: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Weapon Training +2
8: +1 STR, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization***
9: Greater Shield Focus, Mirror Move
10: Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Guard +3, Reliable Strike (2/day)
11: Mobility, Weapon Training +3
12: +1 STR, Greater Weapon Specialization
13: Vital Strike, Deadly Critical (1/day)
14: Improved Vital Strike, Weapon Guard +4
15: Spring Attack, Weapon Training +4, Reliable Strike (3/day)
16: +1 STR, Greater Vital Strike, Deadly Critical (2/day)
17: Melee Weapon Mastery** (slashing), Critical Specialist
18: Penetrating Strike, Weapon Guard +5
19: Greater Penetrating Strike, Unstoppable Strike, Deadly Critical (3/day)
20: +1 STR, Weapon Supremacy**, Weapon Mastery, Reliable Strike (4/day)
*Advanced Player’s Guide
**Player’s Handbook II
***Races of Stone
AC 27 (3rd level)
AC 28 (6th level)
AC 33 (7th level)
AC 39 (8th level)
AC 40 (9th level)