On the Strength of Wild Shape


Advice


Wild Shape, as a utility, is uncontested in its usefulness. The ability to fly, burrow, swim, & climb at a moment's notice, and to raise your AC and gain benefits like DR & energy resistance is wonderful. Well, wonderful for a casting focused druid.

Wild Shape for the combat oriented druid has been a subject of varied debate. I'm not looking to start a forum war on whether or not it's still useful or not. Rather, I'd like to discuss options to make it as strong as possible while remaining within the Pathfinder books. Specifically, the APG offers us a few new variants that change Wild Shape significantly.

Plains Druid: Makes for an interesting option for skirmishing druids. Boosts to speed (which I believe stack with any wild forms), evasion, and bonuses to stealth make this druid an interesting take on the original. Delayed wild shape hurts, but not too much.

Blight Druid: Comes paired with an awesome boost to melee combat, ala the sickened debuff for any adjacent enemies. Since it's a game of save & be immune for the day, just start your day by sickening your allies until they're immune. They lose access to the animal companion, which sucks, but gain some decent domain options. If you go with James Jacob's post about all domain users having access to the cleric subdomains, you can pick up the Rage (destruction) domain for a very decent boost to your melee capabilities.

Swamp Druid: Pretty decent for a grappler, with freedom of movement at all times coming at level 13. Probably more powerful as a casting focused druid, however.

Desert & Mountain druid: Both add new options for wild shape while sacrificing plant shape. I'm not sure how useful vermin shape is, and giant form will likely just transform you into a full-casting huge fighter type. Sorta ruins the flavor, but in a numbers race it's a strong option.

Thoughts?


The way Wildshape is written, your wildshape druid is going to have to push physical stats hard if he wants to fight. He gets bonuses, but remember those are his own hit points he's losing, and the bonuses are not exactly awesome. A 7-stone weakling druid may be harder as a wolf or bear, but he's still the wolf or bear equivelant of a a 7-stone weakling.

Liberty's Edge

Dabbler wrote:
The way Wildshape is written, your wildshape druid is going to have to push physical stats hard if he wants to fight. He gets bonuses, but remember those are his own hit points he's losing, and the bonuses are not exactly awesome. A 7-stone weakling druid may be harder as a wolf or bear, but he's still the wolf or bear equivelant of a a 7-stone weakling.

I actually really like the wildshape updates in Pathfinder. Magic inclined druids get the utility of animal forms and combat focused druids get a benefit from physical stats. I like the idea that a strong/tough druid becomes a strong/tough bear.

I'm sure some hardcore optimizer will come by soon and give the exact breakdowns on power-level but I suspect a mountain druid that just stays in giant form 24/7 and wears giant sized armor and weapons is pretty scary.


It's better ... it would have been better still if they had removed Natural Spell, but you can't have everything.


Dabbler wrote:
It's better ... it would have been better still if they had removed Natural Spell, but you can't have everything.

While I would have agreed with you in 3.5, I think that the PF druid *needs* natural spell and isn't the monstrosity that it was back in the day.

Andoran: I agree, a giant form 2H weapon druid, perhaps with a scimitar or quarterstaff. I can see a lot of power coming from a druid with an enchanted staff.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
It's better ... it would have been better still if they had removed Natural Spell, but you can't have everything.
While I would have agreed with you in 3.5, I think that the PF druid *needs* natural spell and isn't the monstrosity that it was back in the day.

My only issue with natural spell is just that; it's a feat tax. And when you have it, there's usually no reason to be human when adventuring.


stringburka wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
It's better ... it would have been better still if they had removed Natural Spell, but you can't have everything.
While I would have agreed with you in 3.5, I think that the PF druid *needs* natural spell and isn't the monstrosity that it was back in the day.
My only issue with natural spell is just that; it's a feat tax. And when you have it, there's usually no reason to be human when adventuring.

I tend to find the opposite, actually. The inability to speak is beyond frustrating for me in games.


I rather like the Lion and Bear Druids from the APG. Both are well themed, steering the character toward a particular animal type, and both offer significant combat bonuses.

Because they included the young, advanced, and giant templates, there's almost always a cat or bear available at the desired spell level. All of the cats have Claw, Claw, Bite, Rake, and Pounce. All of the bears have Claw, Claw, Bite, and Grab with hefty bonuses to grapple.


I have seen many threads regarding the druid wildshape ability.

The way my DM solved it was to allow the physical stats of any creature i turn into while keeping my mental stats, but instead of just following the Pathfinder rule regarding when you have access to each size of animal/elemental, he also added that i cannot change into a crature with more HD than me.

This has been very balanced, allowing me to participate in a lot with the added utility, while still limiting me to creatures we can handle.

I do some nice damage, but our 2-handed Barb is still the king of crazy kill them all damage.


Joes Pizza wrote:

I have seen many threads regarding the druid wildshape ability.

The way my DM solved it was to allow the physical stats of any creature i turn into while keeping my mental stats, but instead of just following the Pathfinder rule regarding when you have access to each size of animal/elemental, he also added that i cannot change into a crature with more HD than me.

This has been very balanced, allowing me to participate in a lot with the added utility, while still limiting me to creatures we can handle.

I do some nice damage, but our 2-handed Barb is still the king of crazy kill them all damage.

That isn't balanced at all. In fact it sounds exactly like the 3.5 Druid, who was ridiculously powerful due to that feature alone.


Blueluck wrote:

I rather like the Lion and Bear Druids from the APG. Both are well themed, steering the character toward a particular animal type, and both offer significant combat bonuses.

Because they included the young, advanced, and giant templates, there's almost always a cat or bear available at the desired spell level. All of the cats have Claw, Claw, Bite, Rake, and Pounce. All of the bears have Claw, Claw, Bite, and Grab with hefty bonuses to grapple.

Templates aren't available to wildshape into by RAW. You are still restricted to becoming a "normal" version of the animal (or dire animal as the case may be). Your DM might be nice and let you do so, but it isn't allowed by the rules normally. I'd be happy if they FAQ'd that and I happened to miss it however as there are still some "dead areas" once you start getting into huge cats or bears for the totem druids.


stringburka wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
It's better ... it would have been better still if they had removed Natural Spell, but you can't have everything.
While I would have agreed with you in 3.5, I think that the PF druid *needs* natural spell and isn't the monstrosity that it was back in the day.
My only issue with natural spell is just that; it's a feat tax. And when you have it, there's usually no reason to be human when adventuring.

You could be forced to turn back to humanoid for speaking (talk with a Driad, inform your allies of what you discovered with scouting). Generally speaking, I'd prefer the druid forced to choose.

Anyway, people tend to consider Natural Spell too powerful because of the image of a Bear shooting lightnings and summons. IME, is far more annoying a rat or a bat doing the same.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Blueluck wrote:

I rather like the Lion and Bear Druids from the APG. Both are well themed, steering the character toward a particular animal type, and both offer significant combat bonuses.

Because they included the young, advanced, and giant templates, there's almost always a cat or bear available at the desired spell level. All of the cats have Claw, Claw, Bite, Rake, and Pounce. All of the bears have Claw, Claw, Bite, and Grab with hefty bonuses to grapple.

Templates aren't available to wildshape into by RAW. You are still restricted to becoming a "normal" version of the animal (or dire animal as the case may be). Your DM might be nice and let you do so, but it isn't allowed by the rules normally. I'd be happy if they FAQ'd that and I happened to miss it however as there are still some "dead areas" once you start getting into huge cats or bears for the totem druids.

Actually the totem druids specifically state you can use those templates on your totem animal, so you can be summoning bears, lions, eagles or whatever All The Time.


MinstrelintheGallery wrote:
Actually the totem druids specifically state you can use those templates on your totem animal, so you can be summoning bears, lions, eagles or whatever All The Time.

The net effect is that there are very few dead spots:

Summon Nature's Ally 3-8 will get you bears.
Summon Nature's Ally 2-8 will get you cats.
Summon Nature's Ally 1-9 will get you birds.
Summon Nature's Ally 1-6 will get you dogs.

Druid, "I am Bear of the Bear People. This is my companion bear, who is also named Bear. Now, to prepare for battle, I will summon bears!"
moments later
Badguy #1, "Hey boss, what do you call a whole bunch of bears in one place? Is it swarm of bears? A school of bears? A flock?"
Badguy #2, "You idiot, there's no word for a a mess o' bears traveling together because bears don't . . ."
Badguy #3, "Run! There's a @#$%!load of bears coming!"

I'd love to see similar alternatives for an Elemental Shaman and a Dinosaur Shaman! I'd certainly house-rule either for a campaign I GM.


MinstrelintheGallery wrote:


Actually the totem druids specifically state you can use those templates on your totem animal, so you can be summoning bears, lions, eagles or whatever All The Time.

yes, but you cannot apply them to your wildshaped form.


Ender_rpm wrote:
MinstrelintheGallery wrote:


Actually the totem druids specifically state you can use those templates on your totem animal, so you can be summoning bears, lions, eagles or whatever All The Time.
yes, but you cannot apply them to your wildshaped form.

Sorry I misread the previous statement-my bad.

If there is any problem with the totem druids, it's this. Not all of the animal types cover all your bases for wild shaping. Bears only occupy a few sizes, wolves are simply below par, eagles can't really be attack based (not too big a problem, build a casting focused character) and serpents just seem crappy. The cat shaman really seem to have an advantage, as turning into dire tigers is a really attractive option in any case.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:


Templates aren't available to wildshape into by RAW. You are still restricted to becoming a "normal" version of the animal (or dire animal as the case may be). Your DM might be nice and let you do so, but it isn't allowed by the rules normally. I'd be happy if they FAQ'd that and I happened to miss it however as there are still some "dead areas" once you start getting into huge cats or bears for the totem druids.

The templates aren't an issue. You can choose any template you want when taking an animal form. But once you run out of what the SPELL you're emulating gives you, it'll be nothing more than a cosmetic difference, as choosing a template will not change what the attribute modifers are given.


LazarX wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:


Templates aren't available to wildshape into by RAW. You are still restricted to becoming a "normal" version of the animal (or dire animal as the case may be). Your DM might be nice and let you do so, but it isn't allowed by the rules normally. I'd be happy if they FAQ'd that and I happened to miss it however as there are still some "dead areas" once you start getting into huge cats or bears for the totem druids.

The templates aren't an issue. You can choose any template you want when taking an animal form. But once you run out of what the SPELL you're emulating gives you, it'll be nothing more than a cosmetic difference, as choosing a template will not change what the attribute modifers are given.

So you could be a giant dire tiger- the only changes would be you use the huge animal modifiers (beast shape III) instead of the large ones? I guess you'd have the natural weapons increase by a size too... this isn't broken, really. It just fill in some gaps, mostly for huge animals- now you can be a huge T. Rex or a huge Roc...Is there a RAW interpretation?


Blueluck wrote:

The net effect is that there are very few dead spots:

Summon Nature's Ally 3-8 will get you bears.
Summon Nature's Ally 2-8 will get you cats.
Summon Nature's Ally 1-9 will get you birds.
Summon Nature's Ally 1-6 will get you dogs.

You forgot the poor serpent shaman, which only has 2 snakes on the whole damn list. Summon Nature's Ally 1-7 will get you snakes, but they're still among the lamest thing you can summon. At 13th level, summoning 1d4+1 giant advanced constrictor snakes is... underwhelming.

Scarab Sages

Blueluck wrote:


I'd love to see similar alternatives for an Elemental Shaman and a Dinosaur Shaman!

I would love to see a Dino Shaman - I play a rogue/druid with a velociraptor for a companion - would love to have a dino shaman version for this char

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MinstrelintheGallery wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:


Templates aren't available to wildshape into by RAW. You are still restricted to becoming a "normal" version of the animal (or dire animal as the case may be). Your DM might be nice and let you do so, but it isn't allowed by the rules normally. I'd be happy if they FAQ'd that and I happened to miss it however as there are still some "dead areas" once you start getting into huge cats or bears for the totem druids.

The templates aren't an issue. You can choose any template you want when taking an animal form. But once you run out of what the SPELL you're emulating gives you, it'll be nothing more than a cosmetic difference, as choosing a template will not change what the attribute modifers are given.
So you could be a giant dire tiger- the only changes would be you use the huge animal modifiers (beast shape III) instead of the large ones? I guess you'd have the natural weapons increase by a size too... this isn't broken, really. It just fill in some gaps, mostly for huge animals- now you can be a huge T. Rex or a huge Roc...Is there a RAW interpretation?

RAW is what the spell gives you for the given level of Wildshape, in this case the text of Beast Shape 3.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Blueluck wrote:

The net effect is that there are very few dead spots:

Summon Nature's Ally 3-8 will get you bears.
Summon Nature's Ally 2-8 will get you cats.
Summon Nature's Ally 1-9 will get you birds.
Summon Nature's Ally 1-6 will get you dogs.
You forgot the poor serpent shaman, which only has 2 snakes on the whole damn list. Summon Nature's Ally 1-7 will get you snakes, but they're still among the lamest thing you can summon. At 13th level, summoning 1d4+1 giant advanced constrictor snakes is... underwhelming.

Not all of the totem shamans are going to be equally adept at various druid functions. If you're a serpent shaman, your effective focuses are going to be elsewhere other than summoning, such as the stick to snakes spell. Paizo may also choose to address this in other sourcebooks.

Mind you though that other options might come out with the new Bestiary.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
It's better ... it would have been better still if they had removed Natural Spell, but you can't have everything.

While I would have agreed with you in 3.5, I think that the PF druid *needs* natural spell and isn't the monstrosity that it was back in the day.

Andoran: I agree, a giant form 2H weapon druid, perhaps with a scimitar or quarterstaff. I can see a lot of power coming from a druid with an enchanted staff.

It's not the Druid CoDzilla it was in 3.5 when you could dump your physical strengths to the extreme, because you'd get the crazy physical bonuses of the wildshape. Now to be a wildshape meleer you're going to have to sacrifice on the casting stats because you can't skimp on str, dex, and con any more. So it balances out.


LazarX wrote:

Not all of the totem shamans are going to be equally adept at various druid functions. If you're a serpent shaman, your effective focuses are going to be elsewhere other than summoning, such as the stick to snakes spell. Paizo may also choose to address this in other sourcebooks.

Mind you though that other options might come out with the new Bestiary.

Yeah, that's my hope. As it stands there isn't much worth shaping into for a huge animal, and that's sorta a problem. Wild Shape seems to follow the "bigger is better" mentality, and dire tiger is still your best option for many things.


Dabbler wrote:
It's better ... it would have been better still if they had removed Natural Spell, but you can't have everything.

I always kind of thought Natural Spell should've been a Metamagic Feat. Put even a +1 level kick on preparing a spell you can cast while Wildshaped and it's an interesting tactical option instead of a feat tax.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
It's better ... it would have been better still if they had removed Natural Spell, but you can't have everything.
I always kind of thought Natural Spell should've been a Metamagic Feat. Put even a +1 level kick on preparing a spell you can cast while Wildshaped and it's an interesting tactical option instead of a feat tax.

Well it's not a bad house-rule fix.

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