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I am running a campaign set during wartime. There is a fair rate of PC death and retirement, so the current party isn't the same as when it started. One of the current PCs is a necromancer who is slowly building up a small undead army of skeletons he animates and zombies he controls with other spells and the Command Undead feat. I have a few questions, which may not all be explained in the rules, so opinions on hazy subjects are also welcome.
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1) Onyx
Quote: Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead) The description seems to clearly indicate this requires a single gem. I hadn't bothered paying so much attention to this detail when an earlier PC bought a wand of animate dead with one charge, so I allowed him to simply provide a total amount of gems that add up to the necessary value (i.e. use two 25 gp onyx to animate a 2 HD creature instead of one 50 gp onyx). Now here are the questions:
A) Did I handle the onyx value incorrectly? Does it have to be a single gem? As opposed to multiple gems that add up to proper amount? This answer may or may not affect questions C and D.
B) How can you know the HD of a creature? The Knowledge skill does ay this, "Identify a monster's abilities and weaknesses: DC 10 + monster's CR." I'm actually just realizing that you add the CR to the base DC of 10. I had thought is was DC 10 + monster's HD. Anyway, should it be DC 10 + CR + HD to determine the HD of a creature? And this is related to questions C and D...
C) What happens if an undervalued onyx is used? If the value is too low, does the spell simply fail? Or does the onyx get used up too? The answer to this would probably be the same regardless of whether the one gem or multiple gem rule applies.
D) What happens if an overvalued onyx is used? If you use a 100 gp onyx for a 2 HD creature (only needs 50 gp), is half the onyx left after the casting, or does it all get used up? How about if multiple gem are used...if you use four 25 gp onyx (100 gp total) in the casting for a 2 HD creature (50 gp needed), do all four onyx get used up or will the extra 2 be leftover? One reason I wonder about this is because some spells require an exact amount for a valuable material component, but others (such as animate dead) say "at least" so it makes me wonder if the spell will use up as much as you put into it, regardless of need.
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2) HD limit for control
Quote: Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit.
I understand that a 10th-level Wizard can normally animate up to 20 HD of undead with a single casting and can normally control a total of 40 HD with this spell. What about control from other spells?
The reason I ask is that this spell specifically names the Command Undead feat as being a separate limit for controlling undead, so that feat is like an exception to the standard limit. So, I wonder if this means that other methods of control are not exceptions?
What about the command undead spell? This is a 2nd-level spell that targets 1 undead creature but has no limit on the HD of the creature that can be affected, and it has a duration of 1 day/level. A 10th-level necromancer has a minimum of 12 spell slots between 2nd-level and 5th-level, so if he used all of them for command undead, does that mean he could have 12 undead (of any HD) under his control for 10 days in addition to the 40 HD of skeletons from animate undead?
1 -
a) Any number of onyx gems can be used; if your campaign allowed onyx powder to be bought, that could be used provided enough was purchased.
b) I always say, "if you kill it, you know the HD equivalent". If you must have rules associated with it, let the player make a 10 DC Heal check (take 10) in order to identify the creature's HD.
c) Look at it this way: PC wants to animate four skeletons and uses only 80 gold worth of onyx gems.
80 / 25 == 3.2 PC now has three skeletons and feels like he was ripped off.
d) Any onyx used in the casting is consumed, despite it's value. If you houseruled onyx powder/dust as an alternative, then nothing would be wasted.
2 -
Animate Dead is the only spell that creates undead and allows complete control over them; Command Undead (the spell) is like a potent version of charm person, thus Command Undead (spell) doesn't stack against Animate Dead.
The GP value of gemstones with onyx is an amusing point because onyx is a semiprecious stone and 25 GP of onyx gives you a chunk that's too big to stuff into the zombie's mouth.
The reasonable way to deal with it is to have the onyx bits be art objects in the form of engraved gemstones where the big value isn't the price of the stones (which is actually pretty cheap) but the quality of the engraving. That way your necromancer doesn't have to carry around a bag of boulders.
While the rule is that you need to have a single gem of X value to do any given spell and any value over X is wasted, that's a recipe for annoyed players or characters who are continually running to the jewelry district to make change.
The best way that I've found to play it is that when a spell is cast, if there are gemstones worth enough available, they shatter and the spell goes off. If there's not enough, the spell fails but the component gem isn't consumed because it was the wrong component. If there's too much, only part of the gem shatters, leaving a fragment that's worth whatever the change is.
This saves the trouble of diamond merchants only cutting stones in the common spell denominations.
For a necromancer, it would be cool to give them a rosary of 25 GP onyx beads carved into the shape of skulls. Stylish and would give a nice visual for using the component.
A) Did I handle the onyx value incorrectly? Does it have to be a single gem? As opposed to multiple gems that add up to proper amount?
Spell says "an onyx gem," not plural. As a DM though, I really wouldn't be a stickler on this point, but your "refund" question below would lead me to apply the rules as written and stick with one gem per casting.
B) How can you know the HD of a creature?
Really doesn't matter. When a zombie is created, all class levels are removed to minimum one. If it's a 20th level warrior, it becomes a 1 Hit Die zombie + its size HD modifier (e.g. a human zombie has +1 size modifier so in total becomes a 2 HD creature). A skeleton does the same but has no size modifier. If they have racial HD, those don't get dropped. There's your math for that. The spell will go till it can't animate any more. If you really need to know HD, like for an Owlbear skeleton, a Knowledge check should suffice, and I'd probably use the 5 + monster CR (for a basic monster) if all you're looking for is HD.
C) What happens if an undervalued onyx is used? If the value is too low, does the spell simply fail? Or does the onyx get used up too?
Spells generally don't consume the material component if its impossible for the spell to be cast. But if you have enough to animate a couple undead, but not all, the spell would work until the animated HD exceed the gem value.
D) What happens if an overvalued onyx is used? If you use a 100 gp onyx for a 2 HD creature (only needs 50 gp), is half the onyx left after the casting, or does it all get used up? How about if multiple gem are used...if you use four...
Gem is consumed. Even if you animate just one body and use a 1000gp gem to do so, it is consumed. Gem value is "at least," meaning you can use a more expensive one to achieve the spell, but not less.
As for the Command Undead spell, view it like a "charm person" spell. You can have any number of people charmed this way until durations expire. Same with the spell, and it does not interfere with Animate Dead or the Feat. Each effect is its own sphere of influence, meaning yes, theoretically, your caster could have a ton of "charmed" undead in addition to his Animated and feat-controlled ones.
Thank you all for the clarifications and ideas! I'm still thinking some of this over, but the replies have provided me with a more solid footing on how to handle this.
Now here is another series of questions...
Quote: Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
Quote: Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Quote: Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Animate dead can target more than one creature. Each creature needs to be touched.
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#1) Does a necromancer who cast animate dead need to make an attack roll to touch a corpse during combat?
I haven't bothered doing this yet in my game, and I assume a corpse has a pretty terrible touch AC anyway... AC 10 -5 Dex mod (from Dex score 0 for being helpless) +/-size +magic bonuses (i.e. deflection, sacred, luck, etc) = AC 5 +/-size +magic ... but I suppose one could miss an attempt at touching a dead body, especially a wizard with a poor touch attack trying to touch a tiny creature with magic still protecting it.
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#2a) How many corpses can be touched per round? This may depend on the answer to question #1. It seems like the necromancer gets one free touch attempt (perhaps with an attack roll) as part of the casting, so he could touch one creature in the same round that animate dead is cast. However, a single casting of this spell can be used on more than one corpse, so it seems like the necromancer can continue to "hold the charge" until the onyx used in the casting runs out or until something causes the spell to end. How many corpses can be touched in the next round? Is it just 1 corpse with a standard action? Or if an attack roll isn't needed to touch a corpse, would be it up to 6 corpses with a full-round action (and would this mean that the necromancer can only take a 5-ft step this round?)?
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#3) What causes the spell to end?
If the necromancer is attacked while holding the charge, is a Concentration check required to not lose the charge? Also, "Holding the Charge" says, "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges," so I assume that touching a living creature (even if it is dying) causes the spell to discharge and end...is this correct?
Wait...hmmm...just found this:
Quote: Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
#2b) Do all the corpses have to be touched in the same round that animate dead is cast?
How many corpses can be touched in a round? 1? 6? Do they each need an attack roll?
EDIT: Does this mean that in combat only a limited number of corpses can be touched? But out of combat, the only limit is based on the normal limits of the spell (i.e. HD of creatures, caster level, amount of onyx used)?
1) A corpse is not an opponent. It's an unattended object. If he fails to touch it, he can just try again (see the next question). I wouldn't require an attack roll.
2a) Considering 2b), it wouldn't be reasonable to apply a limit. I'd allow the necromancer to move between touches, up to his speed. If he can't reach the required number of corpses in a round by doing so, the remaining HD are lost.
3) No concentration required. Touching anything, whether or not it's a valid target, discharges the spell.
With Animate Dead, I can effectively make ANY kind of undead I want, right? Mummies, Skellies, Zambies, Fast Zambies, ghosts, ghouls, ghasts, wights, spectres, all them dudes right?
**********EDIT************
NM, i reread it and answered myself.
Quote: School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.
The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.
Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit.
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a physical anatomy.
Bomanz wrote: NM, i reread it and answered myself. The Bestiary describes how to make most of the variant skeletons and zombies, like fast zombies and burning skeletons.
reefwood wrote: 1A) Does it have to be a single gem? As opposed to multiple gems that add up to proper amount?
1B) How can you know the HD of a creature?
1C) What happens if an undervalued onyx is used?
1D) What happens if an overvalued onyx is used?
3) Touch
All these are pretty much "Ask Your DM" questions.
But answering in a clinical straight RAW way these are the closes to RAW answers:
1A) Yes must be a single gem. Most DM's gloss over this and allow any number and (like me) some even allow "spend X GP' from your wealth.
1B) The DM knows, the PC can't know for sure. The DM may allow him to make a check of some sort (Heal, Knowledge X, etc)
1C) The spell fails.
1D) The spell fails or if the DM is kind, the spell works but with no refund.
3) Corpse are not creatures, so no touch roll required.
Thanks again to everyone for rules, opinions, and insights. I think the tricky parts about figuring out how animate dead works are two-fold: 1) it can target multiple creatures and 2) the material component can vary in value. Because of these things, it doesn't seem to fit nicely into the normal rules.
Here is what I'm think are the intended rules for the onyx along what I will do for my campaign:
Quote: School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
I believe the rules intend for only 1 gem to be used - not multiple gems or dust - because the Component line says "an onyx gem" instead of "gems" or anything else. Also, there are other spells that allow for multiple items or require dust as the spell component, so there seems to be a purposeful differentiation, and for this spell, you need 1 gem.
The gem needs to be worth "at least" 25 gp per HD, so it can't be worth less, but it can be worth more. Additionally, a material spell component is "annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process," so it doesn't seem like any portion of the gem would be left after the spell is cast. Also, casting a spell is one thing, but touching a target is another thing. You cast the spell to get the magic energy, and once the spell is cast, the material component is gone. Then, you try to use the magic energy, and it gets used up as you touch corpses. For this spell, the amount of magic energy is based on the worth of the onyx. Therefore, the spell should always work as long as you have an onyx gem worth 25 gp, but if that is all you have, you can only create a 1 HD undead, and the spell should never fail unless the onyx gem is worth less than 25 gp. Once you cast the spell, the onyx is gone, even if no corpses are touched.
One change I will make for my campaign is to allow the use of multiple gems because we have already been playing it this way for a few sessions. However, the multiple gems will still be treated as a single gems for the purpose of casting. A set value has to be put in, and as soon as it is cast but before any corpses are touched, all the gems are spent and gone.
The next thing I need to figure out is how to handle the touching of corpses. How many can be touched in a round? What happens if you touch something that isn't a corpse?
reefwood wrote: The next thing I need to figure out is how to handle the touching of corpses. How many can be touched in a round? What happens if you touch something that isn't a corpse? These are the rules I was able to find that address how to touch a target with a spell.
Quote: Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Quote: Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. Quote: Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
[b]Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.[b]
It seems odd that the Holding the Charge section in the Combat chapter explains how you may touch multiple friends, but the similar section in the Magic chapter tell you that you can't hold the charge on a spell that targets multiple creatures. It just seems like "Spells that Target Multiple Creatures" should have its own section.
Even stranger is that it takes a full-round action to touch multiple friends, but that multiple targets must be touched "in the same round that you finish casting the spell," which requires a standard action to cast, so you only have a move and swift action left this turn.
The "Touch Spells in Combat" section does say that when you cast a spell in combat (standard action, usually), you can touch as a free action and even move in between casting and touching. I assume this "move" refers to a normal move action used to move up to your speed. However, it also implies that only 1 target can be touched. The limit on touching does seem to contradict the rule that touching is a free action in this instance.
I see two options to make this work as close as possible to the actual rules:
#1) Touch up to 6 corpses by turning the standard action of casting into a full-round action. This means you can't take a move action to move in the same round that you cast animate dead IF you want to touch multiple corpses, but you can still take a 5-ft step. Also, if you only want to touch 1 corpse, the spell casting remains a standard action, and "You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target." Any "magic energy"/onyx leftover at the end of the full-round action is lost.
#2) After casting the spell (standard action), touch up to 6 corpses within reach while taking a move action to move. For example, if you have a speed of 30 ft... you can cast the spell as a standard action and use a move action to touch up to 6 corpses, like so: move 10 ft into a square with one corpse each in two squares within reach, touch the two corpses within reach, move 5 ft and touch another corpse within reach, move 15 ft and touch 3 more corpses within reach. Any "magic energy"/onyx leftover at the end of your turn is lost.
The first option seems closest to the rules as written. Thoughts?
Thats something i'd never considered. The material component on the wand has a variable cost separate from the amount of charges that it uses...
I would have the onyx's embedded in the wand. As hit dice are expended, the onyxes crumble, requiring replacement in the wand. This prevents your necromancer from raising undead dragons on the cheap.
The full cost of all The material components of all the castings of all the spells on a wand will be consumed in the creation of said wand. Thus the max HD createable per casting of the spell at the caster level of the wands creator.
Ouch wands just got more expensive/rarer
Onyx
multiple stones may be used as long as they fit within the phisical remains. the gp value is assigned to describe the minimum quality and volume of the material necessary to hold a charge enough to anamate subject phisical remains.
Onyx and the value there of is and will remain a mistery as a 25gp Onyx gem may be aney whare from a fiew karats to several hundred pounds literaly depending on the cut, carve, polish, ink, and processes used in it's mineing and manufacture.
See details:
Color: The layers in these stones range from translucent to opaque for sardonyx. The stones vary in color, too. They may be white or gray, ranging to many colorful varieties. Sardonyx stones usually contain flat-banded, white and brownish-red bands. Onyx is a gemstone with alternating light and dark bands, which are colored in brown, red, black, white and grey.
Description: SiO2 Onyx is striped, semiprecious variety of the silica mineral agate with white and black, brown or red alternating bands. Its properties are the same as those of quartz.
Varieties: Varieties of onyx include carnelian onyx, with white and red bands, and sardonyx, with white and brown bands.
Care and treatment: Onyx may chip or scratch rather easily, so store onyx carefully and never allow two specimens to touch each other.
From the stone history: The name onyx was used by the Romans for a variety of stones including alabaster, chalcedony, and what is now known as onyx marble. Roman soldiers wore sardonyx talismans engraved with heroes such as Hercules or Mars, god of war. They believed that the stone would make the wearer as brave and daring as the figured carved on it. During the Renaissance, sardonyx was believed to bring eloquence upon the wearer and was regarded with great value by public speakers and orators. Sardonyx is always widely used in cameos and intaglios.
Treated agate is often sold as Black Onyx.
Deposits: The chief localities of onyx are India and South America.
Onyx Treatments:
Onyx is very commonly dyed to give it a "blacker" and more even color. Onyx, like all chalcedony, is porus and obsorbs color quite easily. It can be difficult to distinguish onyx gemstones that have been dyed from natural gemstones, but that's okay because dyeing is considered very normal in the industry.
Onyx is a type of chalcedony, or quartz with a different structure. Its colors are black, black and white, and grey and white. It is not particularly rare nor expensive. In ancient times, it was much more precious than it is now.
The most well known type of onyx is black onyx - the type most often found in jewelry. However, onyx also comes in banded grey colors and sometimes in patterns.
The most valuable onyx:
The cost of onyx varies, depending on where you buy it. Black onyx may cost more, as the demand is higher in the U.S. Mexican onyx can be really cheap, but also depending on where you buy it. For example, I have bought onyx for as little as $3 (authentic Mexican onyx from St. Xavier Chapel in Tucson, AZ), yet have also purchased Black Onyx set in pure platinum for as much as $500+. Onyx is not rare. In Mexico there is a town built mostly of onyx. A gram...perhaps a cent or less. The value of onyx is what is made from it.
Most of the value in a peice of onyx jewelry is in the design and not in the gemstone material. This is different from a ruby, for example, where the jewelry is designed around the expensive, precious stone. In onyx jewelry, the emphasis is on the design and the jeweler can use onyx as a feature. Therefore, most often, the value of a peice of onyx jewelry is more dependent on the quality of the design than on the onyx stone.
The most important thing to look for is the quality of the surface: the polish should be shiny and reflective in an evenly manner throughout the stone's surface. Additionally, there should not be any surface cracks or pits. The best onyx is also slightly transparent.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Thats something i'd never considered. The material component on the wand has a variable cost separate from the amount of charges that it uses...
I would have the onyx's embedded in the wand. As hit dice are expended, the onyxes crumble, requiring replacement in the wand. This prevents your necromancer from raising undead dragons on the cheap.
One nice thing about the D&D 3.5 DMG is that it gives examples of scrolls and wants, so it is helpful for giving examples of such spells with expensive components or varying caster levels. I haven't seen anything like that in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, but going back to 3.5 as an example...a scroll of animate dead includes the amount of onyx for the maximum HD that the creator of the scroll can create in a single casting, so 350 gp worth for a 7th-level arcane caster (14 HD x 25 gp) or 250 gp worth for a 5th-level arcane caster (10 HD x 25 gp), so it seems like the onyx cost is built into the scroll, and therefore, the same would make sense for the wand.
Although, perhaps Pathfinder purposefully left out these examples to leave the subject open to DM discretion? Then again, the magic item creation rules do say that you have to add the cost of an expensive material component to each charge, so more likely, a wand of animate dead is probably meant to only create up to the same "X" amount of HD for each charge, so it makes the magic item more restrictive than casting the spell yourself, but that is kind of the general rule for magic items anyway.
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Zotpox wrote: Onyx
multiple stones may be used as long as they fit within the phisical remains. the gp value is assigned to describe the minimum quality and volume of the material necessary to hold a charge enough to anamate subject phisical remains.
Onyx and the value there of is and will remain a mistery as a 25gp Onyx gem may be aney whare from a fiew karats to several hundred pounds literaly depending on the cut, carve, polish, ink, and processes used in it's mineing and manufacture.
Thank you for all the info, but I'm not worried about the value of the onyx being a mystery. The PCs in this war campaign obtain items through their army, so they always know the value.
Also, someone earlier mentioned the weight of the onyx, but I'm not too worried about that aspect either. I'm just having each one weigh 0.01 lb, so the weight will be fairly negligible unless the necromancer wants to really stock up on a ton of them.
And Pathfinder seems to have done away with the 3.5 requirement of placing the onyx in the creature.
Making the wand cost the maximum amount seems even harsher than making the wand cost its minimum amount is cheesy: you're not going to find all that many high HD bodies just lying around.
harsh? how so? Do you want to be the one who uses a wand only to find that the creator skimped on that casting? I know that I certanly dont.
Ever notice that certian wands are rerer than others like anamate dead, and awaken. Maby just maby that is due to a cost prohibitive material component.
Zotpox wrote: harsh? how so? Do you want to be the one who uses a wand only to find that the creator skimped on that casting? I know that I certanly dont.
Ever notice that certian wands are rerer than others like anamate dead, and awaken. Maby just maby that is due to a cost prohibitive material component.
Well, you usually only make a wand of spells that either
1) you use so often that there's no point in blowing all of your spell slots (enlarge person magic missle cure light wounds)
2) You need to be able to cast in a grapple (dimension door suckas!)
and 3) you will need to cast in a hurry.
Most folks don't cast create undead or awaken creatures so often that they NEED to put it into a wand... you hit your controlable hit die limit and then stop. You can also stuff the body in a bag of holding and take it out when you get back to your haven... there's usually no rush on that.
Most folks arent NUCROMANCERS
1) mulpiple castings on an old battlefield = insta army
2) you dont waste you own control HD on skelies when the vampires you control can control the skelies. Cause thats what leutenants are for =)
3) granted that thies are not for every day use but thats why the cost prohibitive material component is to prevent abuse.
4) the nucromancer shines with prep time and wands can dramaticly reduce that prep time.
Cost so create a wand of animate dead if you have to use the full onyx value for everything.
The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the wand: 375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.
375 X 4 X 7 = 10,500 (minimum 7th level caster, assuming necromancer= wizard) = gp +
A 7th level caster can raise up to 28 hd of undead per casting (Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit )
28 X25gp X 50 (Fifty of each needed material component are required (one for each charge) = 35,000
Total 45,500 gp .. almost the entire wealth for a 9th level character
If you go by the usual assumption, that a found magic item is made at minimum caster level, then a Wand of Animate Dead would cost 38,500 gp, which would allow you to animate 14 HD of undead per casting, the maximum that a 7th level caster could manage. I would assume that you just aren't going to get any particular use out of desecrate if you are casting it from a wand, which doesn't seem that strange to me.
Also, in the GameMastery Guide, the Wand of Restoration is created using the highest material component cost, coming in at a hefty 71,000 gp, but allowing it to remove permanent negative levels.
I hope it didn't come off as sounding like I thought a wand of animate dead had to contain charges with enough onyx to create the maximum HD of undead. I was just trying to show that the example item in 3.5 did this, which reinforced the idea that the material component value has to be included in the wand. Even with this requirement, the creator of the wand could probably include as little or as much of the onyx as desired, just like the caster level of the wand has to be at least the minimum to cast the spell but can be lower than the creator's caster level.
Maybe a battlefield necromancer wants each charge to be able to create 20 HD of undead, but a wizard who just needs low HD guards will be content with a wand that creates 5 HD of undead.
And animate dead sure seems to skim the edge of normal rules, so making a house rule to make it more manageable - such as allowing a character to add the onyx separately of the wand - may be perfectly reasonable for some people/DMs/campaigns. Though, by the rules, the onyx should already be in the value of the wand with each charge able to create the same amount of HD.
Quote: Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
So...any idea why different actions seem to be listed for doing the same things? I mean, they mostly wind up to having the same effect (a touch being a free action as part of casting but also listing it as a standard action to touch one friend), but some of it is more confusing (needing a full-round action to touch up to 6 friends but having to touch multiple targets in the same round that you used a standard action to cast the spell, so in essence, using a standard action AND full-round action in the same turn).
I'm still curious about the question in my last post, but here is some other stuff I'm wondering about:
Quote: This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.
The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.
There are various spells that can be used to control undead, but animate dead states that undead under the control of this spell can only do two things:
1) Follow you - I take this to mean that the undead will move toward you, and if you move, it will follow you. But it can't scout ahead and won't move away from you.
2) Attack any (or just a specific kind of) creature in an area - The attacking any creature part is pretty clear cut. You tell it to attack, it attacks the nearest creature. Although, I assume that the undead will not attack you. Also, if you tell the undead to attack, but it cannot sense the creature, the undead doesn't do anything...it just stands there. Now the part about attacking a specific kind of creature seems a bit contradictory for a mindless undead. How can it tell the difference between a human and a half-elf? How about a horse and a unicorn? Even the term "kind" doesn't seem to be a standard term from the book like "type" or "subtype," but I wouldn't imagine that a skeleton or zombie could automatically differentiate between an animal and a magical beast anyway. Therefore, I've just been handling the "specific kind" portion based on DM discretion.
Since the undead are created and controlled via magic, I have allowed the undead to automatically know which commands are meant for them. So, the necromancer can say "attack elves" once and have that command apply to as many or as few undead (under his control from animate dead) as he wants, and the rest of the undead will not attack elves. He could order the rest of the undead to "attack dwarves" or follow him.
However, as his undead army grows in size, I am thinking about limiting the amount of commands that can be given in a single round.
The command has to be spoken, and speaking is a free action, but there are limits to even free actions. Telling one undead to follow and another to attack seems easy enough, but telling ten different undead to attack ten different kinds of creatures seems like too much of a mouthful for one round.
Since the commands are simple and short, I was thinking of having each command require 1 second of time, so up to 6 commands can be given in a round. These commands can be given while doing anything else, except tasks that require speech. Along those lines, if the necromancer casts a spell with a verbal component, it requires a standard action - which is half his turn - and only leaves 3 seconds left for commands. A spell with a verbal component that requires a full-round action or 1 round to cast would leave no time for commands. And normally, since speaking is a free action, it can be done when it is not your turn, but this would defeat the purpose of the limit and/or complicate what happens if the necromancer gives several commands before his turn and then wants to cast a spell, so commands can only be given on his turn. Thoughts?
Just wanted to pop in and thank you guys for some lovely discussion - the endgame BBEG of my campaign is a necromancer and I intend on having the PCs fight a huge army of undead at some point near the endgame. This discourse has improved my knowledge of Commanding/Animating/Controlling undead greatly.
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