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Without getting into the DRM thing (it's not for me), I gave Hero Lab a shot and decided against purchasing it.
1) I'm a Mac user and having to run something in VMWare is a pain. It's 2010 - people use Macs more than ever.
2) It's WAY too expensive. $30 for the application and then a bunch more to add additional material (some of which I think isn't even optional - APG for instance). In today's software market (especially coming from the Mac world) $30 for a buggy, bloated, unappealing application is just too much to ask for.
3) I'm not slighting Lonewolf. It's a niche market for this kind of software and I'm ignorant of their staffing/resources, but just starting Hero Lab makes me feel like it's 1999 all over again.
I'm going to explore some of the other, more open options, but in the end I'll most likely use a spreadsheet or whip up something myself in Objective-C for native Mac users.
1: For the Mac it is being developed, stay tuned.
2. 29.99 is all you would HAVE to pay if you bought the software. If you do not WANT the add-ons you can add them yourselves. No one is preventing you from doing so the only thing you will need is time, lots of time.
Not to mention where are you getting the buggy and bloated from? There are a few bugs like there is with ANY software, including this web site. Including the Mac OSX version you use. So lets not go there. Any bugs found are always fixed.
3. It is a niche market. :)
I am glad that you are exploring your options as you should.. but lets not slight hero labs because you do not want to use it.
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3/ (bloated) like it's 1999 ? we need a simple and efficient interface. I don't want 3D-window turning around when I'm designing my PC!Without getting into the DRM thing (it's not for me), I gave Hero Lab a shot and decided against purchasing it.
3) I'm not slighting Lonewolf. It's a niche market for this kind of software and I'm ignorant of their staffing/resources, but just starting Hero Lab makes me feel like it's 1999 all over again.
I have to agree with Neverminding. While certainly usable and generally user friendly (generally, not completely), the UI does look like something programmed circa 2000. As my company is learning first-hand right now, you lose a lot of business if your program looks like crap, even if it contains every feature on the planet and the kitchen sink.
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Because like has been said earlier. What is to prevent you from using it on all your friends computers? using it on 200 other computers?
Ahh... the presumption of guilt. I can do a lot more damage with a baseball bat but I've never been told I cant buy one because there's nothing stopping me from smashing a window (or worse) with it. Besides, the ip's of my machines will all show they're on the same gateway at least 90% of the time.
Without the DRM there is an unlimited amount of times you can use the license and nothing preventing you from applying it to any computer no matter where it is located.
As I've said, there's nothing wrong with protecting the app. When you start restricting honest customers, its an issue.
With the Gas theory then you are right... but you have a limited supply of gas to use. So using YOUR analogy, The gas has a limited supply issued with each can of gas. You can use it on what ever combustion engine you choose but eventually you are going to run out and in the case of a gas can more likely sooner then later. You are going to have to purchase more to use on more combustion engines...
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything... Eventually (one would hope!), advances in technology will make current computers as old and obsolete as Roman Numerals so, in that respect, everything has its end of life limits. I should hope we're discussing the use of a product during its life cycle...
Not to mention where are you getting the buggy and bloated from? There are a few bugs like there is with ANY software, including this web site. Including the Mac OSX version you use. So lets not go there. Any bugs found are always fixed.
Bugs in an operating system are one thing. Bugs in a website you use for free are another thing.
Maybe my standards are just too high, but the 45 minutes or so I spent messing around with Hero Lab weren't pleasant. It's only my opinion, there are obviously many people that enjoy it and are willing to purchase it.
I'm not going to hold my breath for the Mac version, but it will be nice to see it run natively. I can't seem to find any press release about this, where did you hear it from?
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You trollin'. It's unreasonable now because THE INTERNET.
No... and no.
As far back as 1986, I was running a fairly popular BBS (dedicated to roleplaying games). the popularity of my BBS got me invited to so many others and nearly every one of them had some sort of section dedicated to piracy (Elite, as we used to call it). I wouldn't be surprised if the percentages really haven't changed at all... as many people with computers pirated software compared to the overall number of people with computers then as now. I really don't have any numbers to back it up but, being involved in the telecommunicating culture since 1983 (when I got my first modem... 300 baud for my Commodore 64) through now, I haven't really seen much of a change in that particular regard.
Once again, I know piracy exists. I am not against DRM protecting the license of the company that is writing any piece of software. They sell you on the idea that giving you two (or optionally three) licenses is the pinnacle of their capabilities and we all have to live with it because the big bad pirates make them do it. That's just not true.
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The big difference is that most people don't really think of themselves as thrives if all they steal is digital objects. The general consensus is they are a small fish, and the company won't make much from you; and it's not like they otherwise lose anything physical, just a tiny bit of money from one customer.
This may seem wrong to you, but I've done it for ages; heck the question of how easy it was to "make a copy" of this program was actually brought up by one of my friends. So while you may have some belief that people are "all innocent" the company has to do what little they can to protect their intellectual property. As to DRM, I don't buy directly because of it, but indirectly it probably prevented me from getting someone to "slip me a copy".
If any of you knew me, you'd know I'm passionately against abusive/unnecessarily restrictive DRM and have spent a lot of time reading up on the subject, and I admit, I am drawn to reading these arguments like a moth to a flame.
At the same time, I have to recognize this is NOT the thread to have this argument---and I doubt it's helpful to the OP, who has made his own position clear. Nor is it helpful to people who are scanning this thread for ideas and sources for character generators, who have to wade between the arguments to find the information they are looking for.
As a mere fellow member of this forum, I humbly suggest that folks who want to keep discussing the merits and de-merits of DRM and the philosophies behind it take it to the technology section of this message board, and leave this to discuss available character creation software to assist other members who are looking for such software.
It's one thing to say, "Let it be known this software has DRM for those who object to it;" it's another to completely derail the thread to argue about the concepts behind DRM.
On a slightly different note, anyone want to try to petition Stardock to make a Pathfinder character generator? :)
roccojr, true curiosity here. What software have you purchased with a EULA (end user license agreement) allowing unlimited personal installation? Procuring software media/licenses is part of my job, and I've never seen such a license (outside of the Open Source and freeware worlds, and of course then you aren't purchasing something).
Ignoring the severely off-topic argument about DRM, I would like to go on the record as saying this to the people who are having issues with the UI on Herolab:
If you don't like it, offer your services to them.
The UI on PCGen, in a word, SUCKS. They're working on making it better. The preview shots of the new UI still look like something that was cobbled together by an engineer.
News flash: Engineers AREN'T User-interface designers. The guys behind these products have a lot of heart and have put a lot of effort into their products. But they aren't perfect, and they're not software giants. They don't rightly have the resources to spend lots and lots of time on UI's, and what time they do have is going to be spent fixing bugs, not making something look pretty. If you think you can help them with that, by all means, offer your services. I'm sure they'd appreciate it.
Now, I would LOVE to know why the HeroLab guys are having so much trouble putting a Mac version out, but I'm sure it has more to do with them being unable or unwilling to put a Cider wrapper on it (or deal with Transgaming's licensing prices) and more of them wanting to keep it in-house and have full control over it. Once there's a Mac Beta out, you can bet your behind that I'm going to put a copy of that on my machine, test the holy heck out of it, and provide them as much feedback as possible.
Because that's how improvements happen. Constructive feedback.
Can we maybe try to shift this topic back over to that, rather than the gripe-fest it's turning into? I think the purveyors of the the products would really appreciate it, and might even take some time to thank you for your efforts.
-Edit to add-
I would love to suggest, however, that Lonewolf Development update their website to indicate that a Mac version of the product is under development, along with a development status blog/log. It'd go a long way toward securing interest and future sales.
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I don't know anywhere in the US where you still pump before you pay. Why? Because a few people would pump their gas and then hop in their car and drive away. And so now you get to hand over your money before getting your product.
Hyrum.
WOW! People must just be more trusting in the Midwest. I don't know a gas station where you have to pay before you pump.
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WOW! People must just be more trusting in the Midwest. I don't know a gas station where you have to pay before you pump.
I've seen the same in the midwest, but only to a degree. Highway road stops and the major cities (in my case Minneapolis) still require pre-pay in most cases, but once you get into rural midwest and hit the place that doesn't have the fancy new-fangled pumps, chances are good you'll find a place you can pay after you pump the gas.
I definitely concur on the UI issue--it's the primary reason I don't use PC Gen. For my own work, I definitely listen to any and all feedback on making the interface better (to the limited degree I can in Excel). Of course, sometimes I have to make the call that I'm going with some suggestions in favor of others when there is conflict. My overall approach, however, is to never assume I've gotten the tool perfect and not freak out when somebody says my current state stinks. It's move up from it's early state to what it is now specifically due to user feedback and suggestions.
Summary statement: offer suggestions, not just criticism!
And as a side note, I'm going to add all of the character sheet tools I know to my profile since this type of thread seems to come up every other week or so (and often draws the same crowd).
What if you have 6 machines? Should you get 6 licenses then?And what about Windows? I've got 3 machines at home, each requires its own license that I pay Microsoft for.
I look at DRM a little bit like Pay Before You Pump gasoline. I don't know anywhere in the US where you still pump before you pay. Why? Because a few people would pump their gas and then hop in their car and drive away. And so now you get to hand over your money before getting your product.
Hyrum.
You should come to Wisconsin. Most gas stations around here you can still pump before you pay. They handle the drive-offs with security cams that can capture the licence plate number. Then they call the cops. Simple as that.
I'm no fan of DRM, at all. The software would have to be pretty much be absolutely necessary before I would buy it if it had DRM. And since a character building app isn't absolutely necessary... no sale.
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Without getting into the DRM thing (it's not for me), I gave Hero Lab a shot and decided against purchasing it.
1) I'm a Mac user and having to run something in VMWare is a pain. It's 2010 - people use Macs more than ever.
2) It's WAY too expensive. $30 for the application and then a bunch more to add additional material (some of which I think isn't even optional - APG for instance). In today's software market (especially coming from the Mac world) $30 for a buggy, bloated, unappealing application is just too much to ask for.
3) I'm not slighting Lonewolf. It's a niche market for this kind of software and I'm ignorant of their staffing/resources, but just starting Hero Lab makes me feel like it's 1999 all over again.
I'm going to explore some of the other, more open options, but in the end I'll most likely use a spreadsheet or whip up something myself in Objective-C for native Mac users.
Mac's account for less than 4% of the market. If I was developing software, I wouldn't start there either...
Is it buggy? A little. I haven't found software that is perfect yet though. The appeal of it is purely personal, so you are 100% correct there - it is unappealing to you.
1999? I wish... that was a fun year... I got married that year. I also don't think Hero Lab is circa 1999. Do I think it could have been made then? Maybe. Aesthetics are a tough thing - some people like what is called 'retro' and other people prefer classic, and others modern, etc. I do think it is fair to say it isn't for you, and to say why though. I just wanted to point out another POV for you to consider.
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Mac's account for less than 4% of the market. If I was developing software, I wouldn't start there either...
As of October 14th they're estimated to be approximately 10% of the entire market share. Since businesses in general use PCs, I'd extrapolate that the percentage of home users who use Macs is probably much higher than that 10%.
I honestly hate Apple (and I am talking as an ex-Mac zealot), but there is no denying that their products make a big impact on the market and shouldn't be ignored, especially in such a niche market.
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If any of you knew me, you'd know I'm passionately against abusive/unnecessarily restrictive DRM and have spent a lot of time reading up on the subject, and I admit, I am drawn to reading these arguments like a moth to a flame.
At the same time, I have to recognize this is NOT the thread to have this argument---and I doubt it's helpful to the OP, who has made his own position clear. Nor is it helpful to people who are scanning this thread for ideas and sources for character generators, who have to wade between the arguments to find the information they are looking for.
As a mere fellow member of this forum, I humbly suggest that folks who want to keep discussing the merits and de-merits of DRM and the philosophies behind it take it to the technology section of this message board, and leave this to discuss available character creation software to assist other members who are looking for such software.
It's one thing to say, "Let it be known this software has DRM for those who object to it;" it's another to completely derail the thread to argue about the concepts behind DRM.
On a slightly different note, anyone want to try to petition Stardock to make a Pathfinder character generator? :)
He started it! <Point Finger at The Masses> <pout> (my kids do this all the time...)
Fair enough, DQ, I get your point :) (and I agree - we shouldn't have hijacked this thread)
Mac's account for less than 4% of the market. If I was developing software, I wouldn't start there either...
Your data may be flawed, and more than likely based on business reporting, not personal use reporting. I used to run technical support/customer service for a cable ISP, and a simple snmp-walk over our network (over 1 million subscribers in 10 markets, mind) showed that we had approximately 30% home users using Macs, with 5% business users. I would hazard to say that most data citing "less than N%" in the last 20 years is based solely on business-level reporting and not personal-use reporting.
But there are lies, damned lies, and statistics, as the man said.
It doesn't matter how large or how small an OS is in the market. What matters is that there are people that Lonewolf could be making money from, who want to give Lonewolf money, and who aren't capable of doing so.
If Lonewolf = want money, then Lonewolf = make product available.
There is a demand. By making themselves a supplier, they can fulfill that demand and gain a loyal customer base. It makes good business sense.
Is it buggy? A little. I haven't found software that is perfect yet though. The appeal of it is purely personal, so you are 100% correct there - it is unappealing to you.
Personally I think $30 for a piece of software that does what I want it to and has frequent updates by a developer who cares enough to correct issues as they arise is a boon and a really reasonable price to pay.
It's all a matter of perspective.
It's not an iPhone app, where $5 is considered "Way too pricey." It's a full featured software platform. $30 is a STEAL.
1999? I wish... that was a fun year... I got married that year. I also don't think Hero Lab is circa 1999. Do I think it could have been made then? Maybe. Aesthetics are a tough thing - some people like what is called 'retro' and other people prefer classic, and others modern, etc. I do think it is fair to say it isn't for you, and to say why though. I just wanted to point out another POV for you to consider.
See previous statement about engineers not being UI designers and about folks offering services if they think they can do better. ;)
I perfer Herolabs, becuase I can export the characters into d20Pro.
You should come to Wisconsin. Most gas stations around here you can still pump before you pay. They handle the drive-offs with security cams that can capture the licence plate number. Then they call the cops. Simple as that.
Wow, good to know there are still some places like that. I'm a native Southern California boy and I barely remember the time before pre-pay.
Hyrum.
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Mac's account for less than 4% of the market. If I was developing software, I wouldn't start there either...As of October 14th they're estimated to be approximately 10% of the entire market share. Since businesses in general use PCs, I'd extrapolate that the percentage of home users who use Macs is probably much higher than that 10%.
I honestly hate Apple (and I am talking as an ex-Mac zealot), but there is no denying that their products make a big impact on the market and shouldn't be ignored, especially in such a niche market.
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8
Mac is 5% according to them.
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roccojr, true curiosity here. What software have you purchased with a EULA (end user license agreement) allowing unlimited personal installation?
I don't have a job that involves licensing and, honestly, between EULA's being written by (and for) lawyers and my ADHD, I can't say I've honestly sat and read a whole license...
I'd say most of the software I've purchased in the last 10 years are probably game. The only game I purchased that limited my ability to install my way was Spore... which caused a near volcanic eruption on the internet. I suppose I was ignorant to DRM until I got hit by Spore. I knew it existed but, until then, it was just a way to protect the software from piracy... not a way to limit a good, paying customer from reasonable use (which I define as "installing and using on all of my own, personal machines").
Whatever the EULA, the legal limits were explained to me as comparing software to a book. You can own a book, read it wherever you want, copy it for personal use, refer to the book for derivative use. You can't hand out copies, though. However crude, that's been the litmus test I've used to evaluate my behavior.
Wow, good to know there are still some places like that. I'm a native Southern California boy and I barely remember the time before pre-pay.
Hyrum.
Heh. You probably don't want to hear my opinions on southern California (my wife is from there, in-laws still live there for now).
But seriously, the last road trips I've been on through Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Minnesota... I've gassed up at far more places that allow you to pump before you pay than not. But they've also almost always been convenience stores where they want you buying snacks and drinks. And if you have to make 2 transactions to do it (one before you pump and one for snacks after the wife and kids are done browsing while you're out a the gas pumps), it's not very convenient for the customer.
But enough threadjack...
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At the same time, I have to recognize this is NOT the thread to have this argument---and I doubt it's helpful to the OP, who has made his own position clear. Nor is it helpful to people who are scanning this thread for ideas and sources for character generators, who have to wade between the arguments to find the information they are looking for.
You're right... so I gotta apologize.
My last point on DRM (and its not a complaint at all!) is that I've run across software with DRM that limited the software beyond my use and not cared... thhe software just didn't interest me enough to give a rat's patooty.
Hero Lab is the first piece of software I've had enough interest in (and I've demo'd it so the complaints about the UI, etc. didn't apply to me) to open my yapper.
I bought HeroLab back when I was starting my Pathfinder campaign. As a new GM who hadn't seriously played any tabletop RPG since I was twelve, I found the assistance it provided invaluable. The same goes for the four people in my group, three of whom are brand-new to Pathfinder as well. I use HL to keep track of all of the characters, and it makes it really easy to print out character sheets at the start of the session.
My favorite aspect of it is that it alerts me to rules and guidelines that as a new GM I wouldn't necessarily know.
I have since purchased the add-ons, and regret it not at all.
I too am a recent HeroLabs user and to put it simple, I love it. Sure I wish I could customize my printouts a little better but it does what it says it will and really helps me snap out PC's, NPC's, and even critters with relative ease. Combat tracker is also a nice little bonus, but not something I've used too much yet.
Lastly, I am currently checking out D20PRo and the ability to bring my PC's, NPC's and customized critters over to it easily is something I'm really liking. It's a bit spendy, but I'm willing to pay a bit for a quality product that saves me time in the long run.
So, to follow your logic, when are you signing up for the UI team for PCGen?
-- david
Papa.DRB
I would like to go on the record as saying this to the people who are having issues with the UI on Herolab:
If you don't like it, offer your services to them.
The UI on PCGen, in a word, SUCKS.
So, to follow your logic, when are you signing up for the UI team for PCGen?
-- david
Papa.DRBI would like to go on the record as saying this to the people who are having issues with the UI on Herolab:
If you don't like it, offer your services to them.
The UI on PCGen, in a word, SUCKS.
Soon as I'm not working 60-70 hours a week and have more experience coding than I have. It's actually on my list of things to try to do when I have more time that isn't "get up, go to work, come home, go to bed."
You should come to Wisconsin. Most gas stations around here you can still pump before you pay. They handle the drive-offs with security cams that can capture the licence plate number. Then they call the cops. Simple as that.Wow, good to know there are still some places like that. I'm a native Southern California boy and I barely remember the time before pre-pay.
Hyrum.
I wonder how that even works, how do you know how much to pay before you actually fill up?
I'm certain there are no pre-pay gas stations in Germany.
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I wonder how that even works, how do you know how much to pay before you actually fill up?
You go inside and tell the attendant, "I wanted $40 in gas" and give them the money. They set the pump to cut off at $40.
-Skeld
Note: I've never worked at a gas station, so I don't know how the pump is set to cut off. All I know is that is does.
I wonder how that even works, how do you know how much to pay before you actually fill up?You go inside and tell the attendant, "I wanted $40 in gas" and give them the money. They set the pump to cut off at $40.
-Skeld
Note: I've never worked at a gas station, so I don't know how the pump is set to cut off. All I know is that is does.
But that's not filling up as in "fill 'er up".
I was confused by that, too, the last time I drove to the U.S. (I'm Canadian and we don't have the "pay, then pump" system). I gather you're supposed to overestimate how much it will cost, pay, and then they'll give you any change afterwards.
I know it's not perfect, but it is user generated and everyone here can give feedback on it:
Feedback thread
Charater Generator Download
It is an Excel based generator that is IMHO, pretty good.
I can understand your concern about the software activation, as I've been burned by a few small operations myself. In our case, Lone Wolf Development has been in business for 16 years now, and has been publishing tools for gamers for more than 12 years. We still fully support the activation mechanism for old products that have been abandoned for a decade (e.g. Army Builder V1 and V2), as there are still a small number of people using those old products.
The problem with Lone Wolf products isn't really the DRM. They need to make money somehow, and without that, people would just give it away to all their friends. I don't have an issue with that.
MY problem with Lone Wolf is the way in which their DRM is implemented and maintained. I use their product for Warhammer lists, and let me tell you how they operate.
- They don't update the army lists at all. They have nothing to do with them. Users like me and you have to update them ourselves. It can be many months before a new list is made for an army.
- They renew the license based on when you originally registered, not when you renew. What does that mean? Well, let's say you originally bought their product in August. After a year, you let the registration slip. You don't renew again until the following May. If you renew then, you will get to use the product for 3 months, then need to register again. For the full amount. Cheesey? Definitely! The license should renew for a FULL year not 3 months.
So basically, I get to pay $60 a year for a product they don't even update, which is maintained by the users who bought the product, and if you don't renew on the same day you purchased the product, they still charge you the full $60. Sound fair to you?
I love the product, but have returned to using an older version simply because I hate the way they implement their license agreements. Granted, that is Warhammer, and this is Pathfinder, but if they manage their software the same way for each system they work with, and they probably do, then I want nothing to do with it. I would stay far away from this product unless you like getting reamed.
Different licensing for Hero Lab. It is not a yearly renew, but a one time (per product) license.
-- david
Papa.DRB
- They renew the license based on when you originally registered, not when you renew. What does that mean? Well, let's say you originally bought their product in August. After a year, you let the registration slip. You don't renew again until the following May. If you renew then, you will get to use the product for 3 months, then need to register again. For the full amount. Cheesey? Definitely! The license should renew for a FULL year not 3 months.
Now, I would LOVE to know why the HeroLab guys are having so much trouble putting a Mac version out, but I'm sure it has more to do with them being unable or unwilling to put a Cider wrapper on it (or deal with Transgaming's licensing prices) and more of them wanting to keep it in-house and have full control over it.
We actually looked into something similar to this as a solution for Hero Lab, and spent quite a while investigating it. Unfortunately, what we ended up with was slow, clunky, and didn't look good. :(
Rather than put out an application we weren't proud of, we went back to the drawing board and are now taking a different route, one that will hopefully end up with much better results for users. It's taking longer to create, but we'd rather produce something good late than something mediocre sooner.
I would love to suggest, however, that Lonewolf Development update their website to indicate that a Mac version of the product is under development, along with a development status blog/log. It'd go a long way toward securing interest and future sales.
We'll almost certainly do something like this when we're nearer to release. Right now we don't have a lot to report - as soon as we have something we can show off to users, and a plan for how long it will take to turn that into a finished product, we'll put something up on our web site. :)
Thanks for your feedback!
MY problem with Lone Wolf is the way in which their DRM is implemented and maintained. I use their product for Warhammer lists, and let me tell you how they operate.
The Hero Lab product model bears zero resemblance to Army Builder. In addition, your assertions about Army Builder are wildly inaccurate, so I'm compelled to correct them below.
They don't update the army lists at all. They have nothing to do with them. Users like me and you have to update them ourselves. It can be many months before a new list is made for an army.
For Hero Lab, Lone Wolf does ALL the updating of official data files, and it's done under a royalty-based license from the various publishers. For Army Builder, Games Workshop has asked us to not be involved, so we respect that request and the data files are left to fans for games like Warhammer. Even so, the data files are of good quality and generally updated about a month after new books are released.
They renew the license based on when you originally registered, not when you renew. What does that mean? Well, let's say you originally bought their product in August. After a year, you let the registration slip. You don't renew again until the following May. If you renew then, you will get to use the product for 3 months, then need to register again. For the full amount. Cheesey? Definitely! The license should renew for a FULL year not 3 months.
For Hero Lab, it's a one-time purchase for the content, so there is no similarity with Army Builder. Furthermore, the cost of Army Builder license extensions is $12.50, which is about 30% of the cost of the product. Your assertion that the cost is the "full amount" is not even close to accurate, since the product sells for $40. If the renewal cost was the full price, then you'd have a strong argument here, but that's not the case. The model for Army Builder is that we keep updating the product every year (V3.3 goes to Beta in a few weeks) and users can get those updates for a nominal extra cost. If someone wants to wait a few years between updates, they can do so and get all the features released in previous years for a one-time cost that's still substantially less than buying the product all over again.
So basically, I get to pay $60 a year for a product they don't even update, which is maintained by the users who bought the product, and if you don't renew on the same day you purchased the product, they still charge you the full $60. Sound fair to you?
Again, this is both patently incorrect and sounds like hyperbole to me. The truth is that you can optionally pay $12.50 a year for continued updates on a product that makes it possible to easily create army rosters for a wide range of miniatures games. You can choose not to pay and continue using whatever version of the product you last purchased access to - for as long as you want.
I love the product, but have returned to using an older version simply because I hate the way they implement their license agreements. Granted, that is Warhammer, and this is Pathfinder, but if they manage their software the same way for each system they work with, and they probably do, then I want nothing to do with it. I would stay far away from this product unless you like getting reamed.
Please double-check your facts before lambasting a product with assumptions, glaringly incorrect information, and hyperbole. It severely undermines your argument. I can wholly understand if you don't like the model we use for our Army Builder product, but please portray your arguments with accurate information. :-)
There will always be someone unhappy with the sales model for any product in existence. However, Army Builder has become the industry standard among miniatures gamers because a large percentage of miniatures players considers the product a worthwhile investment. Our objective with Hero Lab is to achieve the same status among RPG players, and we believe we are well on our way towards that goal.
Different licensing for Hero Lab. It is not a yearly renew, but a one time (per product) license.
-- david
Papa.DRBOh that's better then. Forgive my ignorance and ignore my post.
Army Builder has become the industry standard among miniatures gamers because a large percentage of miniatures players considers the product a worthwhile investment. Our objective with Hero Lab is to achieve the same status among RPG players, and we believe we are well on our way towards that goal.
You absolutely are. First rate product. Worth every penny.
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I can understand your concern about the software activation, as I've been burned by a few small operations myself. In our case, Lone Wolf Development has been in business for 16 years now, and has been publishing tools for gamers for more than 12 years. We still fully support the activation mechanism for old products that have been abandoned for a decade (e.g. Army Builder V1 and V2), as there are still a small number of people using those old products.
The problem with Lone Wolf products isn't really the DRM. They need to make money somehow, and without that, people would just give it away to all their friends. I don't have an issue with that.
MY problem with Lone Wolf is the way in which their DRM is implemented and maintained. I use their product for Warhammer lists, and let me tell you how they operate.
- They don't update the army lists at all. They have nothing to do with them. Users like me and you have to update them ourselves. It can be many months before a new list is made for an army.
- They renew the license based on when you originally registered, not when you renew. What does that mean? Well, let's say you originally bought their product in August. After a year, you let the registration slip. You don't renew again until the following May. If you renew then, you will get to use the product for 3 months, then need to register again. For the full amount. Cheesey? Definitely! The license should renew for a FULL year not 3 months.
So basically, I get to pay $60 a year for a product they don't even update, which is maintained by the users who bought the product, and if you don't renew on the same day you purchased the product, they still charge you the full $60. Sound fair to you?
I love the product, but have returned to using an older version simply because I hate the way they implement their license agreements. Granted, that is Warhammer, and this is Pathfinder, but if they manage their software the same way for each system they...
Ummm Hero Lab is NOT that type of License. You buy it.. you OWN it.
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Yeh, my apologies for getting sucked into that DRM bruhaha. To contribute something constructive, the df20pfsrd site has some fan-made HeroLab datafiles available here with OGL content from various sources.
The Hero Lab product model bears zero resemblance to Army Builder. In addition, your assertions about Army Builder are wildly inaccurate, so I'm compelled to correct them below.
Good to hear. I'll make my own corrections to your statements as well.
For Hero Lab, Lone Wolf does ALL the updating of official data files, and it's done under a royalty-based license from the various publishers. For Army Builder, Games Workshop has asked us to not be involved, so we respect that request and the data files are left to fans for games like Warhammer. Even so, the data files are of good quality and generally updated about a month after new books are released.
It doesn't matter if your mom asked you not to work on the files or god did. The fact is, you do not do so. This is left up to the end users. This means that files are released for the product months after they are released in store. At one point, you released two armies at once, one over a month old, the other close to three. On average, it does not take 3 months, but it can. I use an older version of AB now, and I get the army files the day the book is released in stores.
For Hero Lab, it's a one-time purchase for the content, so there is no similarity with Army Builder. Furthermore, the cost of Army Builder license extensions is $12.50, which is about 30% of the cost of the product. Your assertion that the cost is the "full amount" is not even close to accurate, since the product sells for $40. If the renewal cost was the full price, then you'd have a strong argument here, but that's not the case. The model for Army Builder is that we keep updating the product every year (V3.3 goes to Beta in a few weeks) and...
That is good to hear that Herolab does not charge an annual renewal. I would be much more likely to purchase it in that case. You are correct, AB is only $40 (it's been a long time since I paid the fee). I apologize. However, I paid the full amount when I renewed. Maybe that was a glitch in the system, maybe you changed the way you operate, but I never paid $12.50, so now I feel more gypped than before! This was eventually what caused me to stop renewing, as I didn't see it was worth it. At $12.50, I still think it's overpriced for the fact you do not update the files, but it's certainly a lot better than $40.
I very glad to hear Herolab is not like AB. As I said, you make a great product with AB, so if you have the same quality with HL without the crazy product renewal and GW leasing rules, I'm sure it's a better product.
Anyway, this isn't about AB so let's move on.
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Give me 4 licenses. Don't charge me extra for them. Done deal. Otherwise, I'm not a happy customer and part of the cost of using restrictive DRM is having to deal with the incessant voice of dissatisfaction.What if you have 6 machines? Should you get 6 licenses then?
And what about Windows? I've got 3 machines at home, each requires its own license that I pay Microsoft for.
I look at DRM a little bit like Pay Before You Pump gasoline. I don't know anywhere in the US where you still pump before you pay. Why? Because a few people would pump their gas and then hop in their car and drive away. And so now you get to hand over your money before getting your product.
Hyrum.
Hyrum,
I agree with most of what you are saying but your analogy to gas stations breaks down a lot. In the last two towns I have lived, and all the neighboring communities to those, I can not think of one gas station at which I had to pay before I pumped gas. I do live in the Midwest for what its worth. That said, all of those same gas stations have video surveillance, to catch anyone who drives off without paying, so in that sense your point is still valid.
Graywulfe
EDIT: damn ninjaed
I use an older version of AB now
Since you bring it up....
The older version of Army Builder you're currently using is the one that prompted us to switch to a much more secure form of DRM - the DRM that is now utilized within Hero Lab. That older version was cracked and widely used in a pirated manner. Based on numbers from our server, that old version is still regularly pirated for use by thousands of gamers.
No, these aren't old purchasers who preferred to use the old version, of which there are still a small number. These are pirated copies. Our server can detect the difference when the product contacts the server to automatically check for updates.
So, for those of you who believe software companies should trust you to be responsible and take offense at things like DRM, please direct your ire towards the thousands of your peers that happily pirate software. They are the ones who ruin it for the rest of you honest folks out there.
To use the analogy presented earlier, DRM is utilized for the same reason you lock your house and your car. There are lots of honest people in the world, but there are more than enough dishonest folks to spoil it and force us all to take the necessary precautions to safeguard against their actions. It's an unfortunate reality of the world we live in. :-(
The older version of Army Builder you're currently using is the one that prompted us to switch to a much more secure form of DRM - the DRM that is now utilized within Hero Lab.
Since your company is still in business I'm assuming that they had a positive growth rate before the use of the current DRM. Has the adoption of the new DRM caused a noticeable alteration in the growth rate of sales?
So, for those of you who believe software companies should trust you to be responsible and take offense at things like DRM, please direct your ire towards the thousands of your peers that happily pirate software. They are the ones who ruin it for the rest of you honest folks out there.
I'm sorry, this just doesn't hold a lot of water. The majority of "my peers" would never have paid for a copy of your software in the first place. It's a slippery slope to state that every single one of them—given the choice of never using the software again or paying for it—would choose to pay for it and thus you are losing money for each "pirated" copy that contacts your server.
And you're basically admitting that DRM is punishing the honest for the actions of the dishonest? Where is Cory Doctorow when you need him!?
Here is a suggestion that works very well in some development communities: Give a full featured demo of your software (otherwise it's not really a demo of the full product) before asking people to pay for it. There are a few case studies that show crippled demo versions are a huge turn off and will inspire "my peers" to go out and fine full featured pirated copies to truly evaluate the product. Then, at the time they would get the "your demo is up, please purchase a full copy" dialog, they are happily using one already and are less likely to make an honest purchase. I know from my experience that if I'm using a product that is not gimped in any way and that message pops up, I rarely think twice about entering my payment information just to keep using the application as I have been for the last 14-30 days.
Just a thought!
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This is the last time I will hijack this thread about the DRM. But when Neverminding wrote that Lonewolf was basically punishing the "honest" user because of the ones that are not so honest... I had to say something.
No one is being punished at all. Not in the slightest! The DRM is not a punishment but a means to protect the company from pirated software. This is just one of the wsys they could have done it and chose to do, while you may or may not agree with it is not really up to you as you stated. The company is protecting their assets as they feel is the best way. Whether we like it or not. Lonewolf never once said they were admitting to punishing the honest user... but protecting their product from the dishonest. The DRM no matter how you cut it is just the way they did it. It is not hurting us in any way other then having to buy extra licenses should we choose to install it on more then two computers at a price that is fairly cheap. MS does not really offer such a price unless you are a business yourself. (Bad analogy I know).
Not really sure what you are trying to get at when talking about "your" peers at all. You seem to imply they are either pirateers and deal with pirated software or buy the software. If given the choice everyone of them would choose not to buy it but steal it??? Or they would choose to buy it legal like and use it? Or not use it at all because they don't like it.
Now for one I am glad you are able to speak for everyone of your peers and know every single answer they might come up with and elected you as their spokesperson. But to imply they are not loosing money with each pirate copy contacting their software or they are loosing money with each paid copy is contacting their servers... not really sure what you meant here either. You are very unclear. But yes they DO loose money for each pirated copy. This is fact!!Another fact is that there are dishonest people out there and will pirate software if given a chance. Yes it is wrong but it is NOT wrong that Lonewolf protect their right to their software to prevent the pirating from happening any way they can.
just my thoughts