Levels 2 and 3 playtest data

[redcapscorner]

I ran a magus at 2nd level and then at 3rd level through two Pathfinder Society mods (using Pathfinder Society character building rules) last night and thought I'd share my playtest data and thoughts. WARNING: this is long, but I think it's worth the read. My suggestions are at the end, so skip ahead to that section if you're not interested in the analysis and discussion, etc.

CHARACTER AT LEVEL 3
Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Speed: 30 ft.

Initiative: +1

Str: 19
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 7
Cha: 7

Hit Points: 27
Armour Class: 15 (+4 armour/+1 Dex); 11 touch, 14 flat-footed, 19 regular with shield
Fort: +5
Ref: +2
Will: +1

Feats: Combat Casting, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Traits: Desperate Focus, Heirloom Weapon
Class Abilities: Spellstrike [Su], Spell Combat [Ex], Spell Shield [Su]

Melee: +1 Scimitar +9 (+4 Str/+2 BAB/+1 trait/+1 enhancement/+1 Weapon Focus) 1d6+5 (+4 Str/+1 enhancement) 18-20/x2; if using Spellstrike with shocking grasp attack bonus increased by +3 against those wearing metal armour and damage output increased by +3d6 electricity, if using Power Attack attack bonus decreased by -1 and damage output increased by +2, and if using Spell Combat attack bonus decreased by -4

Concentration for casting defensively: +11 (+3 caster level/+2 Int/+2 trait/+4 Combat Casting)

Skills: Knowledge (arcane) +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (planes) +8, Spellcraft +8, Use Magic Device +4

Spells: all cantrips (DC 12), burning hands (DC 13), colour spray (DC 13), expeditious retreat, hydraulic push, magic missile, obscuring mist, shield, shocking grasp, true strike; 0: 4/day; 1: 4/day

Equipment: Backpack, Spell Component Pouch, Spellbook, Masterwork Chain Shirt, +1 Scimitar

DISCUSSION
My 3rd-level feat was Weapon Focus, so the level 2 stats were pretty similar but I didn't have Spell Shield, I was at a -2 to hit, my concentration was at -1, my Reflex saves were at -1, I had one fewer 1st-level spell per day, and I didn't have hydraulic push or burning hands. At level 2, I played in tier 1-2 of the Beggar's Pearl, and at level 3 I played in tier 4-5 of the Frozen Fingers of Midnight.

Most of the fights in both mods were pretty standard brawls and I found myself doing a lot of just hitting things and saving my spellstrike for boss fights. I was rolling pretty well, but I often found that I didn't really need to be, as I was hitting pretty hard regardless. Many of the fights were triggered while I was still reasonably far from the action, so a frequent tactic was to take a move action and then cast shocking grasp and hold the charge, only to charge and use Spellstrike and Power Attack on the following round for a total bonus of +10 (hits most things) and a damage output of 4d6+7 or 8d6+14 on a crit (pretty excellent). I was reasonably consistently hitting and without shocking grasp I was still outputting 10 to 12 damage, which is respectable I feel.

I found that my low AC didn't leave me survivable enough to stay knee-deep in melee unless I was sure I was going to kill my opponent, so I rarely managed to use Spell Combat, but I did once or twice to good effect (though I rolled really luckily). In the last encounter of the Frozen Fingers of Midnight, I...

Spoiler:

rolled my minimum concentration to cast defensively (8 on the die, for a 17 total) and rolled an 18 on the die (22 total) confirming with a natural 20 to deal 41 damage to the last standing zombie who only had 2 hit points left anyway!

There were two encounters in the Beggar's Pearl in which I was completely useless.

Spoiler:

The derro who could cast darkness effectively shut me out of combat, since my perception modifier was -2 so I could never, ever find him in the middle of a dark arena. And then the derro cleric with the fear aura just kept me panicked the whole time anyway since my Will saves are so bad.

I also spent an entire fight in the Frozen Fingers of Midnight unconscious, but that was due to my own stupidity, not any deficiency of the build or class (unless you consider my character's Wisdom of 7 to be the cause).

ANALYSIS
Serious MAD. This character wants high Intelligence and Strength, decent Dexterity (at low levels, maybe not at high) and Constitution, and at least average Wisdom. Charisma is the only real dump stat. It could get away with lower Intelligence if it had more spells per day, at least at 1st-level and it could get away with lower Strength and Constitution if it had full BAB/d10 hd. It can get away with dumping Strength and pumping Dexterity if you want to go the Weapon Finesse route, but then your damage output is ruined unless you're using Spellstrike, and again you have too few spells per day to do so very often.

I went the route of great Strength at the expense of Intelligence and the outcome was I never felt comfortable preparing any spell that allowed a save. Odds of success with a 13 DC just weren't good enough. This left me preparing shocking grasp and shield all day long, but only being able to use shocking grasp two to three times per day and without having the benefit of it being a touch attack. It was still usually going to hit, granted, but a fighter or barbarian gets its bonuses to damage every turn, and whereas the magus did a fair bit more damage when it got to use its shiny toys, it just couldn't do it enough. I did actually miss a hit using Spellstrike once too. It was a bad feeling.

Had I gone the route of high intelligence, I might have had an extra spell per day and been able to use colour spray or burning hands but I wouldn't have been able to hit anything in melee, so I'd be a wizard with fewer options and a stunted spellcasting progression. What I'm getting at is a class that can either be a bad but slightly tougher wizard or a bad fighter with spells it doesn't have any business using is not going to be fun to play. It needs to be a good version of one of those classes that goes about solving problems differently. Since being a good wizard with melee capabilities seems problematic to balance, I strongly suggest making the class a good fighter that uses spells to supplement damage rather than feats or rages. The class is on the right track, and I think Spellstrike and Spell Combat are great mechanics with a lot of promise. I just think the frame of the class is wrong somehow.

Spell Shield as a Magus Arcana is also really bad. I never used it once. The notion of having immediate access to a shield bonus is cool, but since shield and mithral bucklers seem like such obvious tools for this class, it's rarely ever going to be relevant. And that's not to mention that the class doesn't have enough spells to ever make it a good idea to use this. I'll always take an extra hit (which probably would still hit even if I used the ability) to make sure I can get an extra 3d6 damage out of my decision. Unfortunately, there wasn't much else I could choose at 3rd-level for arcanas, and certainly nothing that seemed better. The options are Still Magic (fine but boring), Silent Magic (fine but boring), Maneuver Mastery (which is cool but not for my build), Familiar (which is cool for flavour reasons and a good choice but doesn't really add anything to combat), Concentrate (okay, this one is actually probably better, especially for people who haven't yet taken Combat Casting... I just felt my concentration was good enough already), and Arcane Accuracy (suffers all the same problems that Spell Shield does).

Lastly for analysis, Combat Casting seems like a feat tax. I know it seems like giving it for free would fight one of the downsides of Spell Combat, but maybe the downside to Spell Combat should just change. With or without it, this class always wants to take Combat Casting. Always. That -2 to concentration isn't the reason, I assure you.

RECOMMENDATIONS
1) This class should have full BAB and d10 hit dice. It's a bad fighter and bad wizard right now and you have to skew your Strength or Intelligence super high in one direction to compensate for it. If BAB were higher, it could get away with a 20-point-buy spread (before racial mods) of 16, 14, 14, 14, 9, 7, which would allow it a 16 Int and a 16 Str, bringing its DCs up a little without sacrificing to-hit bonus. It needs to be a good fighter that gets its damage through a different set of problem solving skills, and right now it only hits and damages at the expense of most of its other options (at least at low-level). Even, with Arcane Weapon (which is an insanely cool ability, by the way), I think this is a necessary change, because this class is still going to have lower Strength on average than your fighter, paladin, or barbarian, so the extra enhancement bonus access will be making up for that more than anything.

2) It should have more daily access to 1st-level spells, and maybe even other spell levels as it continues to level. What I'd recommend? Each day choose one touch spell in your spellbook and you get an extra number of castings of that spell for that day equal to your Intelligence modifier (or maybe Int + 1). This is another incentive to keep Intelligence reasonably high if you're focusing on Spellstrike with no-save spells, but it also allows you to prepare other more interesting spells if you want, without feeling like you need to prepare all shocking grasps. This is especially cool, because right now I feel like Spell Combat is mostly just a vehicle for Spellstrike, but if I had the option to prepare colour spray it would be awesome to use it against the three dudes in front of me, and then hit the one who made his save, rather than just always defaulting to spellstriking as a full-round action. I like that this also scales with level, allowing you to use it with shocking grasp now, but a 3rd or 4th-level spell instead later.

3) It could stand to be able to spontaneously convert prepared slots of the appropriate level into the spell chosen each day too. Say, I'm 4th-level, have a 16 Int, and choose shocking grasp, I would get three extra preparations of the spell and if I wanted I could convert any 1st-level spell slot into it, but not my 2nd-level slots.

4) It's likely going to be really fragile at low levels, and I'd strongly recommend giving it medium and heavy armour proficiencies right away, but still not forgiving ASF for medium and heavy armour until 7th and 13th-level as current. It might be worth the risk of occasionally messing up some spells to be a little more survivable at low levels, and it would at least open up the option of a mithral breastplate before 7th-level.

5) Spell Shield and Arcane Accuracy need to be worth what you're sacrificing, and I promise you right now they're not. I think both should grant a bonus equal to spell-level sacrificed + 2. A 6th-level spell has almost certainly got to be worth at least a +8 to AC or hit. I don't know. At the very least the shield bonus should be changed to something that stacks with shield. Deflection bonus, perhaps?

6) There should be a magus arcana choose-able at 3rd-level that allows you, once per day as a swift action, to ignore armour, shield, and natural armour bonuses on all attacks this round. Once per day isn't game-breaking (especially since you can't choose it more than once), but this is a meaningful effect that will give the magus some utility against high AC fights.

7) Grant Combat Casting as a bonus feat and change the -2 to concentration on Spell Combat to -2 to AC until the beginning of your next turn, or something. Other big splashy maneuvers such as cleaving or charging give you the -2 penalty to AC, so I could definitely see it applying. And it's a really meaningful downside for this class at low-levels.

8) There should be a touch spell cantrip on the class spell list. Touch of Fatigue comes to mind. They should get to play with their toys, even if they're not doing much with them. I'd have been 200% happier with my playtests last night had I been able to Spellstrike fatigue instead of just hit when I wasn't using shocking grasp.

9) I also think calcific touch, ghoul touch, vampiric touch, and instant armour are great spell suggestions.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Very interesting results! I think that the Colour Spray + smack tactic that you mentioned above is doable with the current Magus and would generally be my choice over Spellstrike at the lowest levels for a more effective Magus. I'm planning on running a Magus through some PFS action, and that's going to be my plan.

A few comments--

*As I mentioned in my Magus vs EK thread, Spell Shield is pretty worthless at low levels, as you noted. The main use would be to deny a dangerous attack (crit confirmation for a scythe, level drain touch, etc) that hit your AC exactly.

*Survivability should shoot up once you hit 4th-level and gain access to spells like Mirror Image.

EDIT: Also what Seeker of Skybreak said.

[Seeker of skybreak]

As I'm sure this board is going to be flooded with playtest data rogue eidolon helpfully made a place where people could post. Jason has already commented on it and will most likely be watching it so you may want to post your info here

[voska66]

How did you get power attack at first level with out a +1 BAB?

[Benn Roe]

Sorry! I'm the author of this thread, but I accidentally posted from my work account. Not that it matters, but I wanted to clarify, since I already made a pre-playtest thread and wanted people to get a consistent sense of who was responsible for what.

Rogue Eidolon: the problem with the colour spray/Spell Combat tactic is that the penalty to-hit is not light, and if you have high enough Strength to ignore it, I think you'll find your Intelligence may not be high enough to make colour spray effective. Likewise, If your Intelligence is high enough for colour spray to be worthwhile, you probably aren't hitting anyone. I do agree that survivability goes up at 4th-level and I'll update this thread with my 4th and maybe 5th-level playtests later in the week or next week. Likewise, my damage output should go way up, as I already have a +1 weapon with 18-20 threat range and plan on having a +1 keen weapon with 15-20 threat range after my Arcane Weapon ability kicks in. I probably won't have time before the end of the playtest to go much higher than 5th-level with data, though.

[Benn Roe]

voska66: The answer to that is that I accidentally overlooked the +1 BAB prerequisite, since the sort of character that takes Power Attack at level 1 rarely has to worry about it and I must have just written the requirement out of my mind entirely. For future data, I'll replace Weapon Focus with Power Attack and replace Power Attack with Improved Initiative or something else comparable.

[voska66]

Benn Roe wrote:

voska66: The answer to that is that I accidentally overlooked the +1 BAB prerequisite, since the sort of character that takes Power Attack at level 1 rarely has to worry about it and I must have just written the requirement out of my mind entirely. For future data, I'll replace Weapon Focus with Power Attack and replace Power Attack with Improved Initiative or something else comparable.

I got burned by that in game we recently started up with my Human Inquisitor. Had it all planned out to take Power Attack/Furious Focus.

I think the Magus could use a feature that allows them to consider their BAB as +1 higher for feat prerequisites. That would allow quite a few options to open up for combat feats. Like Weapon Focus or Power attack at 1st level. At you could take spring attack at 5th instead of 7th. You could take vital strike at 7th instead of 9th.

[Benn Roe]

That's not a bad idea. The funny thing is that I noticed it for Weapon Focus but not for Power Attack. I nearly picked Weapon Focus at 1st-level, thinking that my to-hit would suffer so badly from using Spell Combat that I wouldn't want to add Power Attack into the mix.

Unrelated, but I wanted to add that within minutes of starting to play the first PFS mod last night, I was already beginning to plot how I could multi-class away the class's problems. And I take it Paizo won't be thrilled with the notion that the class encourages multi-classing. God help us if Ultimate Magic introduces an oracle focus that gets shocking grasp as it's 1st-level bonus spell. A two-level dip into oracle combined with Broad Study for that many extra uses of Spellstrike is tempting. Honestly, I'm halfway tempted to dip two levels of Heavens oracle for colour spray and a little healing to use with Spell Combat, while all my magus spell slots go into shocking grasp, though the obvious saving throw issues would make that impossible with my current build.

[Wolfthulhu]

voska66 wrote:

Benn Roe wrote:

voska66: The answer to that is that I accidentally overlooked the +1 BAB prerequisite, since the sort of character that takes Power Attack at level 1 rarely has to worry about it and I must have just written the requirement out of my mind entirely. For future data, I'll replace Weapon Focus with Power Attack and replace Power Attack with Improved Initiative or something else comparable.

I got burned by that in game we recently started up with my Human Inquisitor. Had it all planned out to take Power Attack/Furious Focus.

I think the Magus could use a feature that allows them to consider their BAB as +1 higher for feat prerequisites. That would allow quite a few options to open up for combat feats. Like Weapon Focus or Power attack at 1st level. At you could take spring attack at 5th instead of 7th. You could take vital strike at 7th instead of 9th.

That's an interesting idea. I think I like.

[Yescas]

voska66 wrote:

Benn Roe wrote:

voska66: The answer to that is that I accidentally overlooked the +1 BAB prerequisite, since the sort of character that takes Power Attack at level 1 rarely has to worry about it and I must have just written the requirement out of my mind entirely. For future data, I'll replace Weapon Focus with Power Attack and replace Power Attack with Improved Initiative or something else comparable.

I got burned by that in game we recently started up with my Human Inquisitor. Had it all planned out to take Power Attack/Furious Focus.

I think the Magus could use a feature that allows them to consider their BAB as +1 higher for feat prerequisites. That would allow quite a few options to open up for combat feats. Like Weapon Focus or Power attack at 1st level. At you could take spring attack at 5th instead of 7th. You could take vital strike at 7th instead of 9th.

+1

really like

[Quandary]

Quote:

3) It could stand to be able to spontaneously convert prepared slots of the appropriate level into the spell chosen each day too. Say, I'm 4th-level, have a 16 Int, and choose shocking grasp, I would get three extra preparations of the spell and if I wanted I could convert any 1st-level spell slot into it, but not my 2nd-level slots.

I like this idea...

Something like you can spontaneously convert any memorized spell (including unmemorized slots?) to any touch attack spell of that spell level THAT YOU MEMORIZED THAT DAY. So you would only need to memorize one shocking grasp, for instance, but could use all your slots re-casting if you need to. I´m presuming there will be many more Touch Attack spells the final version, both existing spells and new ones, to allow for more variety here.

[Benn Roe]

Upon reflection, and since it was pointed out that my feats weren't all legal, I changed my magus build up a bit for a few more level 3 playtest encounters and I'm going forward with some level 4 playtests at some point soon. Here are my new 4th level stats.

CHARACTER AT LEVEL 4
Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Speed: 30 ft.

Initiative: +1

Str: 13
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 7
Cha: 7

Hit Points: 35
Armour Class: 19 (+4 armour/+4 Dex/+1 natural); 14 touch, 15 flat-footed, 23 regular with shield
Fort: +6
Ref: +6
Will: +2

Feats: Combat Casting, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance (from Qadira: Gateway to the East)
Traits: Desperate Focus, Heirloom Weapon
Class Abilities: Spellstrike [Su], Spell Combat [Ex], Spell Shield [Su], Arcane Weapon [Su]

Melee: +1 keen Scimitar +10 (+5 Dex/+3 BAB/+1 trait/+1 enhancement) 1d6+6 (+5 Dex/+1 enhancement) 15-20/x2; if using Spellstrike with shocking grasp attack bonus increased by +3 against those wearing metal armour and damage output increased by +4d6 electricity and if using Spell Combat attack bonus decreased by -4

Concentration for casting defensively: +12 (+4 caster level/+2 Int/+2 trait/+4 Combat Casting)

Skills: Knowledge (arcane) +9, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (planes) +9, Perform (dance) +0, Spellcraft +9, Use Magic Device +9

Spells: all cantrips (DC 12), burning hands (DC 13), colour spray (DC 13), expeditious retreat, hydraulic push, magic missile, obscuring mist, shield, shocking grasp, true strike, invisibility, scorching ray; 0: 4/day; 1: 4/day; 2: 2/day

Equipment: Backpack, Spell Component Pouch, Spellbook, Masterwork Chain Shirt, +1 Scimitar (keen added by Arcane Weapon ability), 2x Pearl of Power (1st), Amulet of Natural Armour +1

So far, my hopes for the changes are good, though I rolled really terribly during the test encounters and pretty much did nothing the entire time. I flubbed three spellstrike attempts, but to be fair I was rolling 3s and probably would have been missing with a fighter too.

I will post more data after I've playtested at 4th-level. New stuff I've noticed includes the fact that vanish would make a whole lot of sense for a 1st-level spell, and I feel like there are a few spells that should be early entry for the magus to make them more level appropriate. Most noticably, I'm thinking about haste, a'la the summoner.

[Uriel393]

Quandary wrote:

Quote:

3) It could stand to be able to spontaneously convert prepared slots of the appropriate level into the spell chosen each day too. Say, I'm 4th-level, have a 16 Int, and choose shocking grasp, I would get three extra preparations of the spell and if I wanted I could convert any 1st-level spell slot into it, but not my 2nd-level slots.

I like this idea...

Something like you can spontaneously convert any memorized spell (including unmemorized slots?) to any touch attack spell of that spell level THAT YOU MEMORIZED THAT DAY. So you would only need to memorize one shocking grasp, for instance, but could use all your slots re-casting if you need to. I´m presuming there will be many more Touch Attack spells the final version, both existing spells and new ones, to allow for more variety here.

+1