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Rope trick specifically says the rope cannot be removed or hidden.
What exactly is preventing this aside from rules fiat?
Could I not cut the rope and have it fall away from our hiding spot? Could I not cast invisibility upon it?
The spell even then goes on to say that 16,000 lb. of force can REMOVE the rope. It contradicts itself!
The line doesn't seem to make any sense at all.
It's just to stop people camping/hiding invisibly.
I'd try casting invisibility (extended) on it.
I too notice that added to the Pathfinder Version of the spell.
I have assumed this was done, specifically to prevent the spell from being used as a form of invisibility and save haven.
Use to be, (old version), you could pull the rope up, and then look down throw the window to Material Plane, while no one could look up to find you since your were in another plane.
Now you have the rope, which links to two... and allows the bad guys to find, and or climb up to you.
Aka... i think they did it for balance reason, because the old 2nd level version of the spell was two powerful. Were now, you have to be carefull of were and how you use the spell.
PS= I Prefered the old version, were the rope could be pulled up. (( should have just said that when rope is pulled up, the window closes, and those in the Rope Tick space can not see out, and do not know what is going on. )) but oh well.
Um...isn't being a temporary safe haven the entire point of the spell?
If they wanted it to be more balanced, they should have raised the spell level rather than take away its primary purpose for existing.
Ok, I guess we didn’t use Rope Trick to its full potential in 3.5. The way we read it, the rope had to hang down from the hole, which was fine, because we were just able to go into some bushes, or as someone else said, in a tree, and never ran into an issue of someone finding it.
So I guess this version will be no worse for wear for our party (when I get the spell).
Um...isn't being a temporary safe haven the entire point of the spell?
If they wanted it to be more balanced, they should have raised the spell level rather than take away its primary purpose for existing.
Yeah, the level was the problem. It is a better safe haven than the other safe haven spells.
Look at what it competes against:
3rd level: Tiny hut, they can still hit you (although can't see you, they know likely you are there). Sorta protection, but not really.
4th level: Scure Shelter, helps no more than a normal house.
7th: Mage's Magnificent Mansion: Upgranded version of Rope Trick finally. Can't enter but through portal protecting you and very roomy.
YOU CAN'T PLACE IN A TREE OR THE BUSHES! THAT WOULD COUNT AS CONCEALING IT WHICH IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN!
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j/k. :P
YOU CAN'T PLACE IN A TREE OR THE BUSHES! THAT WOULD COUNT AS CONCEALING IT WHICH IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN!
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.j/k. :P
I would just try to barricade myself in a dungeon room before I cast the spell. Immovable rods do this quiet well.
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YOU CAN'T PLACE IN A TREE OR THE BUSHES! THAT WOULD COUNT AS CONCEALING IT WHICH IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN!
j/k. :P
Cannot be removed or hidden. I agree with you that hidden refers to some type of concealment. Therefore, one must use cover to hide it, which is harder to do (i.e. wall of thorns, wall of iron, wall of stone... a wall of iron/stone 'chimney' would be perfect actually... make sure you cap it, and make sure you can dig yourself out... 'cause wall of stone/iron is permanent! :P)
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Easy, use the spell "Shrink Item" to shrink a 16,001 lbs weight to a 4 lbs size. take it up with you into the rope trick (use a 10 foot rope) tie to shrunk item to the rope and unshrink. (you do not have to pull the rope all the way up, only tie it near the top.)
then you activate this part of the spell:
"The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free." there is now a 10' rope pooled on the ground (looks like someone dropped it) with a big weight attached to it, and a nice hidden rope trick above.
Make the weight have perminant shrink item on it, and another rope attached and you could pull it back up into the rope trick.
Easy, use the spell "Shrink Item" to shrink a 16,001 lbs weight to a 4 lbs size. take it up with you into the rope trick (use a 10 foot rope) tie to shrunk item to the rope and unshrink. (you do not have to pull the rope all the way up, only tie it near the top.)
then you activate this part of the spell:
"The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free." there is now a 10' rope pooled on the ground (looks like someone dropped it) with a big weight attached to it, and a nice hidden rope trick above.
Make the weight have perminant shrink item on it, and another rope attached and you could pull it back up into the rope trick.
The rope would snap in the middle long before it will detach from the hidden space. Now you have half a rope hanging from an invisible space, and a big weight attached to the other half of the rope in a pile at the bottom. Without magic, a rope capable of holding that weight would be far too heavy to carry with you. (Well, without a portable hole, but if you had one of those you could just hide in it and not worry about the spell.) Yes, the spell says that the rope can support the 16000 pounds, but that has to mean that the anchoring point will hold that weight, not that the rope itself has been hugely strengthened, which would be a bizarre additional effect of the spell and open to abuses of its own.
The real problem with Rope Trick is that WotC, in their infinite wisdom, tripled the duration. Which, of course, made the spell nearly as good as Magnificent Mansion a 7th level spell. Paizo attempted to nerf it, not by reducing the duration, but by applying a rather nonsensical fix.
The way to fix Rope Trick is to reduce its duration back to 20 min./Lv. to return it to the temporary refuge it was intended to be. Not someplace you can camp the night.
If you're worried about Extend Spell, reduce the duration to 10 min./Lv.
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The rope would snap in the middle long before it will detach from the hidden space. Now you have half a rope hanging from an invisible space, and a big weight attached to the other half of the rope in a pile at the bottom. Without magic, a rope capable of holding that weight would be far too heavy to carry with you. (Well, without a portable hole, but if you had one of those you could just hide in it and not worry about the spell.) Yes, the spell says that the rope can support the 16000 pounds, but that has to mean that the anchoring point will hold that weight, not that the rope itself has been hugely strengthened, which would be a bizarre additional effect of the spell and open to abuses of its own.Easy, use the spell "Shrink Item" to shrink a 16,001 lbs weight to a 4 lbs size. take it up with you into the rope trick (use a 10 foot rope) tie to shrunk item to the rope and unshrink. (you do not have to pull the rope all the way up, only tie it near the top.)
then you activate this part of the spell:
"The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free." there is now a 10' rope pooled on the ground (looks like someone dropped it) with a big weight attached to it, and a nice hidden rope trick above.
Make the weight have perminant shrink item on it, and another rope attached and you could pull it back up into the rope trick.
By RAW, it does not state that the rope would snap, only pull free. If the rope snaps before then, then what is the weight limit on ropes? I can not find any of that info in the book.
For the record, 1 1/2 inch thick hemp rope should have a breaking weight of 16,000 lbs and a 50' section would weigh in @ 25 lbs.
For the 10 lbs rope, that would be a 1 inch thick rope and should have a breaking weight of 8000 lbs.
so, 1 1/2 inch thick and 10 ' would weight 5 lbs and be worth it for this very spell!
I'm with RD. This spell's been nerfed too much. In 3.5e it was barely usable in the first place. By the time you could get a good night's sleep out of casting it you were at least 4th level. Buying a metamagic rod of extend, lesser would eat up a good part of wealth too, so realistically it wouldn't be used until 6th or so. If you don't buy a rod, it's not useful for rest until 8th at least.
So - specifically for purposes of getting a good night's reset when you really need it - it didn't work until high level. Right before you might happily teleport home for the night.
Yes, I realize it could be used for shorter durations in other circumstances. Fine. But it's the spell for "oh crap, we're surrounded, outnumbered, and out of daily abilities... we NEED to reset." Huts and dogs and whatnot don't cut it.
I'll allow the rope to be retracted still.
But it's the spell for "oh crap, we're surrounded, outnumbered, and out of daily abilities... we NEED to reset."
The thing is, what you take as an unintended consequence of nerfing the spell, I think is exactly the point to having nerfed it.
3.0/3.5 are games ruled by casters, in which, given a party of skilled players, non-caster characters are, at best, caddies or sidekicks to the "real characters".
PF is trying to not be that kind of game. Thus... cutting down heavily on a level 2 spell that eliminates one of the big downsides to being a caster. If you're out of spells and in trouble, maybe you should have more fighters. :)
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I don't think the change is that bad at all. You are looking for a spell that will protect you from any attacker, and that is too strong for a level 2 spell. What this is great for is giving you a place to get out of reach of that raging bear (or other non intelligent creature that doesn't climb ropes). It may not be helpful against humans with crossbows, but it works fine against scorpions.
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Cannot be removed or hidden. I agree with you that hidden refers to some type of concealment. Therefore, one must use cover to hide it, which is harder to do (i.e. wall of thorns, wall of iron, wall of stone... a wall of iron/stone 'chimney' would be perfect actually... make sure you cap it, and make sure you can dig yourself out... 'cause wall of stone/iron is permanent! :P)YOU CAN'T PLACE IN A TREE OR THE BUSHES! THAT WOULD COUNT AS CONCEALING IT WHICH IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN!
j/k. :P
Hmm... cannot be removed or hidden. Check.
Can it be greased or laced with contact poison... methinks yes! :)
Can it be greased or laced with contact poison... methinks yes! :)
Awesome ideas! (And I don't see why not.)
I'm with RD. This spell's been nerfed too much. In 3.5e it was barely usable in the first place. By the time you could get a good night's sleep out of casting it you were at least 4th level.
That was what made the spell too good. A second level spell shouldn't be able to let the entire party be completely undetectable all night (or later, all day long).
I like that it was nerfed, but I feel it should instead have been done by reducing the duration.
Good luck getting back down the rope lol
I think getting down just got easier. :)
I'm with RD. This spell's been nerfed too much. In 3.5e it was barely usable in the first place. By the time you could get a good night's sleep out of casting it you were at least 4th level.That was what made the spell too good. A second level spell shouldn't be able to let the entire party be completely undetectable all night (or later, all day long).
I like that it was nerfed, but I feel it should instead have been done by reducing the duration.
How would the spell be useful if the duration is nerfed? I would rather be able to cast the spell once and be done with it. If I(as the caster) have to wake up in the middle of the night to cast it again then it kind of defeats the point of allowing me to rest. I would rather have had the spell level increased.
edit:change "so" to "is"
edit2: add the word "then"
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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How would the spell be useful if the duration so nerfed? I would rather be able to cast the spell once and be done with it. If I(as the caster) have to wake up in the middle of the night to cast it again it kind of defeats the point of allowing me to rest. I would rather have had the spell level increased.
I think that's the point, wraithstrike. Either it should be a higher level, or hit with the wand of nerfing. Paizo did the later.
Eberron story
Sure it was safe, but it was the players' fears that kept them out of it. ;-)
How would the spell be useful if the duration is nerfed? I would rather be able to cast the spell once and be done with it. If I(as the caster) have to wake up in the middle of the night to cast it again then it kind of defeats the point of allowing me to rest.
That's just it -- rope trick, originally, clearly was not meant to be the 'you can rest and recover spells anywhere safely' spell. That's way too good for level 2. That's probably way too good for level 6. It eliminated one of the few weak points in what are generally the best classes in the game by a wide margin.
As for what it's good for if not that, from upthread:
What this is great for is giving you a place to get out of reach of that raging bear (or other non intelligent creature that doesn't climb ropes). It may not be helpful against humans with crossbows, but it works fine against scorpions.
How would the spell be useful if the duration so nerfed? I would rather be able to cast the spell once and be done with it. If I(as the caster) have to wake up in the middle of the night to cast it again it kind of defeats the point of allowing me to rest. I would rather have had the spell level increased.I think that's the point, wraithstrike. Either it should be a higher level, or hit with the wand of nerfing. Paizo did the later.
Eberron story
** spoiler omitted **
Yes, but there is also a correct way to nerf the spell. What wraithstrike was saying is if Paizo nerfed the spell in shortening the duration, it would make it pretty much useless. Where Rope Trick shines is finding a relatively safe spot for the party to rest for the evening, not for a few hours or half the night. And if they lessened the duration, that’s exactly what would be happening.
But Paizo took the wiser course and nerfed the spell in another way (not shortening the duration), which I am glad for.
That's just it -- rope trick, originally, clearly was not meant to be the 'you can rest and recover spells anywhere safely' spell. That's way too good for level 2. That's probably way too good for level 6. It eliminated one of the few weak points in what are generally the best classes in the game by a wide margin.
As for what it's good for if not that, from upthread:
What this is great for is giving you a place to get out of reach of that raging bear (or other non intelligent creature that doesn't climb ropes). It may not be helpful against humans with crossbows, but it works fine against scorpions.
Edit: Missed this response while my browser was crashing.
Uh, ok. I don’t know if I would burn a 2nd level spell for that, honestly, I would probably just run and hide (not via spell) or jump on my horse and take off.
Besides, the spell doesn’t truly become useful for resting until 8th level.
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The real problem with Rope Trick is that WotC, in their infinite wisdom, tripled the duration. Which, of course, made the spell nearly as good as Magnificent Mansion a 7th level spell. Paizo attempted to nerf it, not by reducing the duration, but by applying a rather nonsensical fix.
The way to fix Rope Trick is to reduce its duration back to 20 min./Lv. to return it to the temporary refuge it was intended to be. Not someplace you can camp the night.
If you're worried about Extend Spell, reduce the duration to 10 min./Lv.
This right here, with emphasis on Wotc infinite wisdom.
When in doubt, or when a spell runs a little too stupid (70% of the spells in 3.5) just use the old version with some minor updates. Lightning bolt, teleport, etc.
Prior to 3.0 it was NEVER intended to be a place to sleep or rest up for a long time (8 hours). It was just to take a short break to cast some healing spells, regroup or hide in a dungeon. Or to actually use the other function of rope trick - to climb up to an inaccessible area without an anchor when you don't have levitate or fly.
So no, with a shortened duration the spell would still be a useful trick.
Too many 3.0 gamers got focused on the Nova/rest, and this was just another trick to facilitate that style of poor play.
How would the spell be useful if the duration is nerfed? I would rather be able to cast the spell once and be done with it. If I(as the caster) have to wake up in the middle of the night to cast it again then it kind of defeats the point of allowing me to rest.That's just it -- rope trick, originally, clearly was not meant to be the 'you can rest and recover spells anywhere safely' spell. That's way too good for level 2. That's probably way too good for level 6. It eliminated one of the few weak points in what are generally the best classes in the game by a wide margin.
As for what it's good for if not that, from upthread:
What this is great for is giving you a place to get out of reach of that raging bear (or other non intelligent creature that doesn't climb ropes). It may not be helpful against humans with crossbows, but it works fine against scorpions.
So the idea was to wait until the animal gave up and left, then you could come back down? Was it a free action to cast? I am assuming this was th3 2nd edition version, and my 2nd edition knowledge is limited.
Well, ok. Rope Trick was never a spell I used before 3.5, so I never used it for it’s original purpose. I just saw it relatively recent in our 3.5 campaign and thought it to be a good place for rest.
Maybe it’s part of our campaign because it seemed like we never got a good night’s rest and therefore most times I was not able to get my spells back. So the spell was a welcome change.
But Paizo took the wiser course and nerfed the spell in another way (not shortening the duration), which I am glad for.
Edit: Missed this response while my browser was crashing.
Uh, ok. I don’t know if I would burn a 2nd level spell for that, honestly, I would probably just run and hide (not via spell) or jump on my horse and take off.
Besides, the spell doesn’t truly become useful for resting until...
I agree. I would just use invisibility or expeditious retreat or some other spell.
Auxmaulous gets it.
The real disparity here is Magnificent Mansion. The "I can rest anywhere" spell with fringe is a 7th level spell. The "I can rest anywhere" spell without fringe is 2nd level. Maybe Mansion should be a 3rd level spell and Tiny Hut should be a cantrip. Or maybe Rope Trick should be a safe have to do some much needed healing, and not a mini-Mansion.
I agree. I would just use invisibility or expeditious retreat or some other spell.
And that's great, if you're the kind of wizard who's happy to abandon his group to die to save himself. Otherwise, you'd want rope trick.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The real problem with rope trick is that Monte Cook and the design team, in their infinite wisdom, tripled the duration...
The way to fix rope trick is to reduce its duration back to 20 min./Lv. to return it to the temporary refuge it was intended to be. Not someplace you can camp the night.
I agree with you. I also think the Pathfinder version is fine. Another solution, for mid-level parties, is to enforce the restrictions on nesting extra-dimensional spaces. The first time you try to crawl into a rope trick with your handy haversack promises to be memorable and expensive.
(I think back to AD&D, and I can picture Gygax creating some monsters or ailments that affect those people prudent enough to use an all-night rope trick. Some aberration native to that extra-dimensional space that feeds on the dreams of people or such.)
Jason and the Pathfinder design team couldn't increase the level of the spell, because they didn't want to mess up the stat blocks of NPCs that had been created with the 3.5 rules.
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Also from a design perspective why would you create a 2nd level spell (accessible at 3rd level caster) that doesn't hit it's stride/usefulness until the caster becomes 8th level (8 hours). A 2nd level spell which can't be used to 100% effectiveness till you are 8th level? Is that intelligent design and allocation of spells at appropriate level?
You basically have a spell taking up a 2nd level slot which mechanically doesn't actually gain any real function till you get to 8th level.
This goes back to the very bad conversion from 2nd to 3.0.
At 20 min a level it was always a useful trick to hide for short time and was never intended for the 8 hour rest/nova cycle. In 2nd ed the spell actually made more sense at its level slot for utility - since flight was limited and extra dimensional spaces were not also readily available.
Again, this was just a bad design consideration/conversion on all levels.
And thanks Quantum Steve - with Extend Spell in 3.0+ the base duration should be 10 min/level, forgot about that!
See, that's the way you convert a spell.
Too bad you weren't on the 3.0 design team, maybe you could have saved Lightning Bolt.
I agree. I would just use invisibility or expeditious retreat or some other spell.And that's great, if you're the kind of wizard who's happy to abandon his group to die to save himself. Otherwise, you'd want rope trick.
If the monster is bearing down on you then having the time to cast the spell and get everyone up the rope is why I chose the other options. Mass Invis is also a possibility, or a battlefield control spell to at least slow the beast down.
It's the new Armageddon spell basically. People on the other side of the earth can't see the rope because it's hidden by all the dirt and such in between.
The rope cannot be hidden.
"I can rope trick"
"YOU DESTROYED THE WORLD, WHY'D YOU DO THAT. Campaign over guys."
It's the new Armageddon spell basically. People on the other side of the earth can't see the rope because it's hidden by all the dirt and such in between.
The rope cannot be hidden.
"I can rope trick"
"YOU DESTROYED THE WORLD, WHY'D YOU DO THAT. Campaign over guys."
I lol'd.
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It's the new Armageddon spell basically. People on the other side of the earth can't see the rope because it's hidden by all the dirt and such in between.
The rope cannot be hidden.
"I can rope trick"
"YOU DESTROYED THE WORLD, WHY'D YOU DO THAT. Campaign over guys."
nah you got it all wrong: the earth provides cover, not concealment. Hidden refers to concealment, not cover.
(disclaimer: unless you are in another galaxy and looking at the sun, and the earth just happens to orbit right in front of the sun's tiny point source of light, then momentarily the earth can provide concealment)
:P
There are ways to use the spell as is.
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Our party was trapped in a library and guards we were not equiped to fight were closing in.
Me to DM: How long and deep are the shelves?
DM: about 6 feet long and a foot and a half deep.
Me (urgently): Right! Thief move the books from that bottom shelf over to that empty shelf. Make it like they have been there forever or we're all dead.
Me to DM: As soon as the shelf is clear I climb in and cast Rope Trick.
Me to Party: Time to get lost in a book.
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The rope was clearly visible in the bottom shelf so no problems there. Well the foot or so that led from the Trick to the shelf was anyway.
Yes the not concealed thing was silly but it can be worked around.
~will
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There are ways to use the spell as is.
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Our party was trapped in a library and guards we were not equiped to fight were closing in.Me to DM: How long and deep are the shelves?
DM: about 6 feet long and a foot and a half deep.
Me (urgently): Right! Thief move the books from that bottom shelf over to that empty shelf. Make it like they have been there forever or we're all dead.
Me to DM: As soon as the shelf is clear I climb in and cast Rope Trick.
Me to Party: Time to get lost in a book.
------------------------The rope was clearly visible in the bottom shelf so no problems there. Well the foot or so that led from the Trick to the shelf was anyway.
Yes the not concealed thing was silly but it can be worked around.
~will
That right there is good old creative thinking on your part! In my games that idea would've earned you a Player XP award (generally = to party APL award).
--Vrocking Grasp
I think the best investment a wizard with this spell can make is in an assortment of drapery cords and bell pulls in different styles to match different decor. And of course a bell to attach to the top so if anyone comes and tugs on the rope trick, they think they've just found a servant's bell.