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The Sorcerer of my group has learned Phantom Steed as her third level spell upon attaining 11th level. Teleportation is very limited in my game and one must have actually visited the location to teleport there, so this spell made sense for overland travel.
So, the question is, just how far and fast can she travel? There is nothing in the spell that states that the horse can become fatigued or can't run at x4 speed for an entire day. She has a maxed out movement of 100ft.
Running = 400ft/round.
4000ft/minute.
240000/hour.
45.5 miles/hour
364 miles/8 hour day.
This seems a little rediculous and would need the reasoning that no rider could survive eight hours at that speed without either making an amazing ride check or being completely numb from the waste down.
I think the most fair ruling would be keeping them to a hustle, x2 movement; 182 miles in a day is nothing to scoff at. I am wondering what everyone here thinks. Any ideas are greatly appriciated.
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So, the question is, just how far and fast can she travel? There is nothing in the spell that states that the horse can become fatigued or can't run at x4 speed for an entire day.
And nothing to say it is exempt from those rules. So just use the same rules as mounted movement - which doesn't allow running for long periods and only allows hustling for hours with cumulative and progressive lethal damage.
The sorcerer probably wont care that he is running it to death on hours long hustles, but it dies of exhaustion in the fifth hour if he tries this. So he can do 4 hours of hustle at 3 minute miles, four hours of normal movement at 6 minute miles and then possibly a couple of hours of forced march at 6 minute miles before it drops dead.
This is only twice as fast as a normal horse can travel (if you don't mind nearly killing it).
Still a respectable 120 miles per day without forced marching or perhaps 140 with.
This seems a little rediculous and would need the reasoning that no rider could survive eight hours at that speed without either making an amazing ride check or being completely numb from the waste down.
Apply the hustle and forced march non-lethal-damage penalties to the sorcerer.
Spell summons a Quasi-real horselike creature.
Spell does not say they can hustle, or double movement, or anything like that. Spell does not summon a horse, just a ridable force that looks kind of horse like.
So max speed is 100 feet at 10th level. (This is the max speed that the magic will allow).
At Max:
One round = 100 feet.
One minute = 1000 feet.
One hour = 10 miles.
One Day = 80 miles.
One Day is based on an 8 hour day. While the Phantom Steed might be able to keep going, the rider would require rest.
It does list by level, that mount gains ability's to ignore certain terrain types at varies levels. So until they get to those levels, those terrain types do reduce their speed.
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Spell summons a Quasi-real horselike creature.
Spell does not say they can hustle, or double movement, or anything like that. Spell does not summon a horse, just a ridable force that looks kind of horse like.
So max speed is 100 feet at 10th level. (This is the max speed that the magic will allow).
It says "spell summons a creature" so I would expect it to behave like a creature.
Is there a clarification of this anywhere?
"one quasi-real, horselike creature"
Never the less this is a Magic Spell. Spell lists max speed as 100 feet at 10th level. For a 3rd level spell, this is already very good for what you get.
As listed above, this already sets it at 80 miles per day (in an 8 hour day), which is even better than the 5th level overland flight spell (64 miles per day, or 48 if encumbered).
One Day is based on an 8 hour day. While the Phantom Steed might be able to keep going, the rider would require rest.
The rider might require a break but a rest? The maximum time traveled in a day is Caster Level * 10 miles.
Phantom Steed (pg. 319 core) "A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per two caster levels, to a maximum of 100 feet at 10th level."
Speed it the key word here. Page 180 in the core rule book states:
"Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell" and "If you use two move actions in a round (sometimes called a "double move" action), you can move up to double your speed. If you spend the entire round running, you can move up to quadruple your speed."
Page 170 states: "A character moving his speed twice in a single round...is hustling when he or she moves."
Therefore one can deduce that the steed has a speed, dictacted by the spell, of 100 feet at 10th level. A rider on the steed may then move up to it's speed and still take a standard action, or move twice by taking two move actions. Two move actions in the same round is a hustle. Therefore, a phantom steed can hustle, and by that standard, can also run. As pointed out above, they still suffer the damage imposed by overland movement. :)
This is a magic spell, with a listed max speed.
At Max:
One round = 100 feet.
One minute = 1000 feet.
One hour = 10 miles.
One Day = 80 miles.
Ok, try this a different way. From a game standpoint, the above is the most i would allow for a 3rd level spell to do. I do not think a magic spell would be able to go over its max spell, just because rule for normal (non-magic) speed can do so. While a human, or animal might have a way of double or tripling its speed, due to movement. A magic spell that has a speed cap would not follow these same rules.
I'm not sure that i agree there.
What about the spells Expeditious Retreat or Fly?
They give listed speeds, but you can still take double moves *at that speed*.
Intersting correlation.If a caster casts Fly (which gives a speed of 60) can he move a max of 60 in a round? or a max of 240?
He can double move, not run. But only moves 60 if you have a light load.
With phantom steed, you always move 20'/2 lvl (up to 100).And it flies by CL 14.
You cannot 'run' while flying.
Note that flying creatures are not hampered by obstacles or difficult terrain.
Why would you not let him do a run maneuver?
Because I actually looked up the spell and it says you can't.
I repeat: you cannot 'run' whilst flying. It doesn't matter if you're a dragon, pegasus or a pixie.
Phantom Steed (pg. 319 core) "A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per two caster levels, to a maximum of 100 feet at 10th level."
Speed it the key word here. Page 180 in the core rule book states:
"Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell" and "If you use two move actions in a round (sometimes called a "double move" action), you can move up to double your speed. If you spend the entire round running, you can move up to quadruple your speed."
Page 170 states: "A character moving his speed twice in a single round...is hustling when he or she moves."
Therefore one can deduce that the steed has a speed, dictacted by the spell, of 100 feet at 10th level. A rider on the steed may then move up to it's speed and still take a standard action, or move twice by taking two move actions. Two move actions in the same round is a hustle. Therefore, a phantom steed can hustle, and by that standard, can also run. As pointed out above, they still suffer the damage imposed by overland movement. :)
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
You cannot 'run' while flying.
Note that flying creatures are not hampered by obstacles or difficult terrain.
I remember this rule, but I can't seem to find it now. Where is it written?
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That is okay, the spell has some other "interesting" wording also:
You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature (the exact coloration can be customized as you wish). It can be ridden only by you or by the one person for whom you specifically created the mount. A phantom steed has a black head and body, gray mane and tail, and smoke-colored, insubstantial hooves that make no sound. It has what seems to be a saddle, bit, and bridle. It does not fight, but animals shun it and refuse to attack it.
so, can it be any color you wish, or does it have "a black head and body, gray mane and tail, and smoke-colored, insubstantial hooves"
I know unimportant, but still odd wording.
I read this as more of an effect then a creature. Thus I would read it as only being able to do a double move and not a run, since the movement in the spell description is otherwise very specific.
Also, does the Phantom steed trigger pressure plate traps before a CL of 8? Does it leave any tracks to be tracked by?
...constructs don't run.
Gee. I don't see anything to support that.
A construct is an animated object or artificially created creature. A construct has the following features.
• d10 Hit Die.
• Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
• No good saving throws.
• Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. However, most constructs are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Constructs do not have any class skills, regardless of their Intelligence scores.
Traits: A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
• No Constitution score. Any DCs or other statistics that rely on a Constitution score treat a construct as having a score of 10 (no bonus or penalty).
• Low-light vision.
• Darkvision 60 feet.
• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
• Immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
• Cannot heal damage on its own, but often can be repaired via exposure to a certain kind of effect (see the creature's description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. Constructs can also be healed through spells such as make whole. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
• Not subject to ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain, or nonlethal damage.
• Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
• Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
• A construct cannot be raised or resurrected.
• A construct is hard to destroy, and gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the following table.
Construct Size; Bonus Hit Points
Fine; —
Diminutive; —
Tiny; —
Small; 10
Medium; 20
Large; 30
Huge; 40
Gargantuan; 60
Colossal; 80
• Proficient with its natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with any weapon mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with no armor.
• Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
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The spell description refers to them as "Creatures". It makes no reference to contructs anywhere in the spell description.
If I use Shadow Conjuration and create a pack of orcs. I can certainly send them running after a fleeing enemy. Why would a Phantom Steed be any different?
No where in the spell discription does it state that the normal rules for movement are voided or changed. It gives the creatures base speed. If a spell summons a creature or force with a Strength rating does it need to restate all of the rules for the strenght attribute? Or do we just assume the normal rules apply if they are not specifically called out as not applying or being changed.
Nowhere does it state it as a "base speed" either. Just "a speed of.."
By the same token, If it is creating a creature, what is its type and subtype, what spells can it be effected by (other then damage, since it gives it an AC), and what are it's stats and saving throws (other then the listed AC and hit points)?
Nowhere does it state it as a "base speed" either. Just "a speed of.."
It doesn't need to, does it?
Fly states: "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet..." Does this mean that the total speed traveled in a round is 60 feet? The spell further reads that "It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed" which leads me to believe that if one can descend at double speed, then the speed of 60 feet is augmentable, similar to the base speed of a creature that is modified by hustling or running. Finally, it states that "using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally." This passage leads me to believe that the listed speed functions in every way as base speed. The subject can take a move action to move 60 feet and then take a standard action...or another move action.
Fly is a 3rd level spell, so is phantom steed. Magic is magic, nowhere in fly does it state base speed yet the subjects can charge or move and cast a spell or attack. Same level, same magic, same rule. Am I right? :)
[Note that flying creatures are not hampered by obstacles or difficult terrain.I remember this rule, but I can't seem to find it now. Where is it written?
Under Terrain and Obstacles on p.193 Core.
I repeat: you cannot 'run' whilst flying. It doesn't matter if you're a dragon, pegasus or a pixie.
You said that before I am merely asking for where that is written.
Whiel I agree the TERMINOLOGY is not corerct you are not RUNNING while flying... I am not familiar with any rules that say you can not go 4x base speed when flying the way you can when on the ground.
Along with the terminology incongruency you mentioned under the Fly spell it says The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run.
You're right tho, i can't find any specific mention of this.
Could've sworn there was tho.
Note tho, that you can move at double speed by descending.
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This seems a little ridiculous and would need the reasoning that no rider could survive eight hours at that speed without either making an amazing ride check or being completely numb from the waste down.
I think the most fair ruling would be keeping them to a hustle, x2 movement; 182 miles in a day is nothing to scoff at. I am wondering what everyone here thinks. Any ideas are greatly appreciated.
Ugh.
Why are you worried about it being ridiculous? The same guy who casts this spell can probably shoot jets of fire from his finger.
Instead of worrying about mechanical precision and what is 'feasible', why not worry about what is awesome?
I don't mean awesome as in 'mechanically optimal', I mean awesome as in: "You race through the mountains at tremendous speeds, trees fade to a blur, the wind whips your face like a howling storm and you can hear nothing but the beating of your own heart. In eight hours you have sped across half of the kingdom and perhaps now you have a chance of reaching the queen in time."
That sounds pretty awesome to me, much more than: "Because there is no way you can travel so fast you arrange for several carrier pigeons to be sent. It's now someone else problem, why not go to the tavern and have a beer."
What is the problem with letting an 11th level sorcerer do some awesome?
And ride checks? This isn't a real horse, it's a phantom, let's not worry about whether it is gradually transmitting the impact of hoof-falls to the rider. Let's worry about it being part of an awesome adventure.
"Do you remember when we had to trek for days to get to that place where stuff had already finished happening?"
Yeah, That was a bit boring."
"Do you remember when we sped across the kingdom on those awesome spectral horses?"
"Yeah, that was awesome!"
The Sorcerer of my group has learned Phantom Steed as her third level spell upon attaining 11th level. Teleportation is very limited in my game and one must have actually visited the location to teleport there, so this spell made sense for overland travel.
So, the question is, just how far and fast can she travel? There is nothing in the spell that states that the horse can become fatigued or can't run at x4 speed for an entire day. She has a maxed out movement of 100ft.
Running = 400ft/round.
4000ft/minute.
240000/hour.
45.5 miles/hour
364 miles/8 hour day.This seems a little rediculous and would need the reasoning that no rider could survive eight hours at that speed without either making an amazing ride check or being completely numb from the waste down.
I think the most fair ruling would be keeping them to a hustle, x2 movement; 182 miles in a day is nothing to scoff at. I am wondering what everyone here thinks. Any ideas are greatly appriciated.
Ok i have changed my mind. :P
The above sound fine me, as i do not mind having a Car going 45.5 miles per day. So, just go with whats listed above. I would require the rider to make riding checks, after a number of hours equal to his Con bonus. But then the same should also be done for being in a car.
So, the question is, just how far and fast can she travel? There is nothing in the spell that states that the horse can become fatigued or can't run at x4 speed for an entire day.And nothing to say it is exempt from those rules. So just use the same rules as mounted movement - which doesn't allow running for long periods and only allows hustling for hours with cumulative and progressive lethal damage.
The sorcerer probably wont care that he is running it to death on hours long hustles, but it dies of exhaustion in the fifth hour if he tries this. So he can do 4 hours of hustle at 3 minute miles, four hours of normal movement at 6 minute miles and then possibly a couple of hours of forced march at 6 minute miles before it drops dead.
This is only twice as fast as a normal horse can travel (if you don't mind nearly killing it).
Still a respectable 120 miles per day without forced marching or perhaps 140 with.
This seems a little ridiculous and would need the reasoning that no rider could survive eight hours at that speed without either making an amazing ride check or being completely numb from the waste down.Apply the hustle and forced march non-lethal-damage penalties to the sorcerer.
ZomB had it right at the start - the spell creates a creature. The creature has hp, and obeys all the normal rules for mounts, travel time, and damage for hustling and forced marches. There isn't reason to interpret further.
Edit: Ninja'd by staff. "Staff response: no reply required."
To answer Happler's questions:
If it is creating a creature, what is its type and subtype, what spells can it be effected by (other then damage, since it gives it an AC), and what are it's stats and saving throws (other then the listed AC and hit points)?