Looking for some advice on this subject. My group and I are starting up a new campaign arc with fresh characters, and the issue of crafting magical items has come up, as it often does. I don't usually have an issue with someone crafting magical items because the experience loss from them is usually at least a decent balance in terms of power lost/power gained. However, I did just find out that it now costs NO experience to craft magical items.
My experience in the game has shown me that allowing characters to have significantly more gear than their level would normally allow does increase their power substantially. I don't really want to actively prevent them from making items, assuming it makes sense for their character to be doing it, but, to be honest, I see zero reason why any character would ever not be making magical items, from a mechanical standpoint, at least.
So what do you all think about crafting magical items? How has it worked in your campaigns? Was there any significant imbalance? Did it turn out fine? Should Rust Monsters and Black Puddings become my world's most common dangers? -_-
I usually include any crafted permanent/charged gear when I calculate my players WBL. They gain no extra wealth by having item creation feats. What they do gain, however, is the opportunity to choose their equipment (somewhat, as I still require special materials and components for the crafting that sets them out on adventures for it). This is a big plus in my games, as neither I nor any groups I know of utilize the ye ol' magic shoppe. For scrolls and potions though, I generally let them have the a little extra equipment if they craft it, as long as they don't try to abuse it.
As a player, I find crafting helps balance out the fact that I'm only actually getting half of any treasure. Typically, I don't get more than 20% - 30% of a treasure in GP. The rest is items that I have to sell back for half value unless I'm lucky enough to find an item I want.
As a GM, I take into account a the party's current wealth when figuring out how much treasure to give out. So no problem there.
I'm also not a fan of Magic Shops where you can buy any item you want. I feel it devalues magic items, making them commonplace instead of something cool a character can boast.
Furthermore, crafting still takes time, and while downtime may or may not be scarce, most campaigns I run or play in don't hit pause for 2 months while I craft everything for the party.
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Another thing to consider is the time it takes. I just finished playing in a campaign that had a fairly strict timeline. Our wizard was a crafter, but we had hardly anytime to do any crafting, so it was hardly used. Now, if you're prone to give player's tons of downtime, it could come to haunt you, but if they're doing a ton of crafting, then like
stringburka mentioned, take their gear into account when handing out treasure.
I not only allow magic item crafting, but encourage it. As pointed out above, finding a +x weapon, selling it for half, then crafting a replacement nets a gain of zero, so no harm there.
Even with extensive downtime, which I almost always allow for, few characters are willing to spend the feats to be able to craft everything. Even when they do, or split the crafting skill between characters, the affect on the power curve is negligible, at least in my campaigns. In fact, I kinda appreciate the fact that I'm no longer responsible for making sure every exotic weapon wielding character finds the appropriate rare weapon in a monster's hoard.
Theoretically, I suppose it could be a problem depending on some players, but I've never experienced it.
Hope this helps.
The point about selling an item for half price, then making a new one from it and basically coming out even is a solid one, but I almost feel like I'd have to go out of my way to put poor treasure into the adventures. I go through and hand select treasure for the adventures I make so that the players are right on par with where they should be at, treasure-wise, in terms of money. I also do like to put in interesting and fun treasure, and stuff that the players will actually use, rather than just putting in junk they intend to sell. I'd much rather have my players have interesting items that have stories behind them than just "that magic sword I made last week." That would almost feel like I might as well stock the dungeons with gold and no items.
I also foresee a problem with starting treasure, in that a player starting out would basically be able to almost double his starting treasure, depending on which and how many feats he took. Obviously that is fairly easily rectified by simply not allowing crafting until the game "starts," and it makes sense to me, but it's still kinda meh.
In terms of time needed, I really don't see the downtime as a problem. For example, in a typical adventure you have 8 hours (if you're lucky) of "adventuring" and 8 hours of sleep, which leaves 8 solid hours for downtime. That's 4 hours of work each day, or 500gp worth of crafting. That's not amazing, but it's decent, and allows items to be made in a fairly timely manner. Our most recent adventure had about a week of travel, followed by another week in the "dungeon" they went to. The dungeon, however, actually had a laboratory that would have been conducive to just this, so they could have crafted about 10,000 gold worth of items just in downtime. So over the course of an adventure, I don't see a problem, but I'd have to basically ROLL out the contrivances to prevent them from ever having downtime during the course of a campaign.
Another point I see made a lot is that it's a "heavy feat cost." I'm honestly not sure I agree with this, since even gaining 20% to your wealth is worth far more than any other single feat out there that isn't Leadership. Honestly, in a campaign with crafting, every character I ever made would be a crafter, and I'd verbally deride any character without it, it's just that good. -_-
So I'm really concerned that the potential for destroying the treasure balance in the campaign is . . . significant. But none of you have had that problem?
The point is if you are hand picking magic items for your players, why would they need to create magic items? A player selects a feat to have control over the magic they get. If they like what you give, they will not feel the need to take the feat.
They either get the gold to make an item from the adventure OR by selling items. If you limit the raw cash because you like to have more stuff you select then they will have to sell things to make the things they want.
And while a magic item you gave out as treasure may be more interesting to you... that does not mean the player would not like or enjoy having his very own Sword of Thazar, and Cloak of Thazar, and Thazar's Jumping Ring! Those items have a great back story of the brave adventurer that slew monsters and worked for days to create his very own magic gear.
Ultimately a DM has to balance the game around what his players can do NOW. If they are strong you need to up the challenges... if every fight is almost a TPK then maybe tone down the bad guys for a while. And along those lines if they are getting too much money... tone down the treasure. If only the party wizard is making stuff for himself, then slant the treasure a little bit more towards weapons and armor for a while. While giving items the wizard can use that are a little bit less valuable.
If creating items is really off putting to you , then have that conversation with your players up front and come to an agreement of what is and is not going to work for the group during your campaign.
...I also foresee a problem with starting treasure, in that a player starting out would basically be able to almost double his starting treasure, depending on which and how many feats he took. Obviously that is fairly easily rectified by simply not allowing crafting until the game "starts," and it makes sense to me, but it's still kinda meh.
Starting treasure values reflect actual values of treasures, not what the character could do with the money if they had the money.Starting stuff for all your players should be the same value. Letting players craft items just gives them one more outlet for their creativity. time constraints are not usually supremely restrictive for enchanting. unlike craft times for mundane objects which can take years.(adamantine full plate). I think the loss of a corresponding feat slot balances any convenience a player might gain from being able to construct their own gear, and the level requirements and spell requirements for individual magic items keep the power level down. As a gm occasionally placing an item that is beyond the players ability to create still lets you have fun thinking about what items to place for players. and gives you more time to be creative with the ones you do place, giving them "character"... let the pc wizard take care of the mundane and obligatory things like bags of holding and simple armor and weapon plusses...and the party cleric make potions of healing. its no fun as a gm to add boring stuff like that to hoards anyway.
The point about selling an item for half price, then making a new one from it and basically coming out even is a solid one, but I almost feel like I'd have to go out of my way to put poor treasure into the adventures. I go through and hand select treasure for the adventures I make so that the players are right on par with where they should be at, treasure-wise, in terms of money. I also do like to put in interesting and fun treasure, and stuff that the players will actually use, rather than just putting in junk they intend to sell. I'd much rather have my players have interesting items that have stories behind them than just "that magic sword I made last week." That would almost feel like I might as well stock the dungeons with gold and no items.
Why does it have to be either/or? Stock it how you see fit. If the players like what they get, they'll keep it. If they don't, they wont. Nothing wrong with giving up a little control and letting the players have some choice in the matter.
I also foresee a problem with starting treasure, in that a player starting out would basically be able to almost double his starting treasure, depending on which and how many feats he took. Obviously that is fairly easily rectified by simply not allowing crafting until the game "starts," and it makes sense to me, but it's still kinda meh.
The "Double Treasure" argument is frequently made, but only as a hypothetical. It just doesn't happen. A spell casting character would have to take Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Items, Craft Wands, Craft Scrolls, Craft Potions, Craft Staffs, and Craft Rods (wizards getting scrolls for free, anyway) in order for this to be the case. That's a lot of feats. If you're really worried about it, just say that only 25% (or whatever seems appropriate to you) of starting wealth can be crafted.
Non-spell casters need to add Master Craftsmen (once or more, depending on how strict you want to be) and at least five skill points as well (minimum), and can't start crafting until level 7.
In terms of time needed, I really don't see the downtime as a problem. For example, in a typical adventure you have 8 hours (if you're lucky) of "adventuring" and 8 hours of sleep, which leaves 8 solid hours for downtime. That's 4 hours of work each day, or 500gp worth of crafting. That's not amazing, but it's decent, and allows items to be made in a fairly timely manner. Our most recent adventure had about a week of travel, followed by another week in the "dungeon" they went to. The dungeon, however, actually had a laboratory that would have been conducive to just this, so they could have crafted about 10,000 gold worth of items just in downtime. So over the course of an adventure, I don't see a problem, but I'd have to basically ROLL out the contrivances to prevent them from ever having downtime during the course of a campaign.
You only have to "ROLL out the contrivances" if you're trying to prevent them from crafting. If you're that much against it, then just don't allow the feats. You really can't have it both ways. Either the players can craft or they can't. Make up your mind and stick to it.
Another point I see made a lot is that it's a "heavy feat cost." I'm honestly not sure I agree with this, since even gaining 20% to your wealth is worth far more than any other single feat out there that isn't Leadership. Honestly, in a campaign with crafting, every character I ever made would be a crafter, and I'd verbally deride any character without it, it's just that good. -_-
Two things: No, it's not "that good." It's good. You really don't end up with more powerful items, you just end up with a few more. And that's only if the PC has received fungible wealth instead of items. As for "verbally deride any character without it," I don't really know how to respond to that. Sounds like a great way to drive away players or get yourself uninvited from a game. It also seems entirely unjustified, given the fact that you apparently haven't actually tried it in a game, either as DM or player.
So I'm really concerned that the potential for destroying the treasure balance in the campaign is . . . significant. But none of you have had that problem?
I've participated in several of these threads and the posters tend to fall firmly into two camps. Those against, who are convinced it will "destroy everything" and have therefore never allowed it, and those for, who have tried it and don't have any problems with it.
I'm sure that there is someone out there whose munchkin players have totally ruined a campaign/game because of it, but, if so, no one has stepped up and said so.
I can certainly see the potential for abuse, but that's what a DM is for, to step in to prevent things from getting out of hand.
Weapons, armor, resistance items, AC bonus items are all "hard coded" due to crafter level restrictions. Other Wondrous items have their price go up in a non-linear fashion so that someone who has the CWI feat doesn't get items that are twice as powerful. At best they can make items that are 1.2 times a powerful or two items of equal power for the price of one. And, again, that's only if they have sufficient fungible resources, as opposed to items that they have to sell for half price.
Some DMs are comfortable with it, some obviously aren't. Some players can handle it, some can't. As for you and yours, you'll never know until you try.
Or not.
By and large, I have no issues with PCs crafting items. I do want to share a few things from how I run my games.
If the PCs are starting at an advanced level, and already have the feats when there characters are made, then I only let them pay cost for 1 magic item per feat (Arcane Bond for an item counts as a feat), except for scribe scroll and brew potion which I allow 3 potions or scrolls at cost for those feats. Any other gear they start with is full price.
If they want to craft an item for money, they need to be comissioned to do so, in other words someone has to approach them and offer to pay them to craft an itme for them. It's completely up to the DM, whether this happens or not.
Likewise, selling a magic item, whether they crafted it or looted it, requires a buyer. Buyers, in general, pay cost for magic items, not the listed price.
I also try to encourage PCs to spend money frivolously as often as possible, and look for rules regarding constant expenses to maintain their lifestyle, care and feeding for any beasts that they own, and any other expenses that I come across in the rules. Since crafting takes time, they might not be able to craft all the items that they think they can afford to make. (due to a steady dwindling of their finances)
Also, since crafting takes time, a new adventure might start before a crafter has made all of the items since he intended since the last adventure finished.
Starting treasure values reflect actual values of treasures, not what the character could do with the money if they had the money.Starting stuff for all your players should be the same value.
I agree, though I've had many disagree with me on that point. In past games, even if a player could craft items, the gold he got to "spend" at the start of his character was the value of his gear. He didn't get to exceed that value, regardless of what feats he had and which of the items he had made.
The "Double Treasure" argument is frequently made, but only as a hypothetical. It just doesn't happen. A spell casting character would have to take Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Items, Craft Wands, Craft Scrolls, Craft Potions, Craft Staffs, and Craft Rods (wizards getting scrolls for free, anyway) in order for this to be the case. That's a lot of feats. If you're really worried about it, just say that only 25% (or whatever seems appropriate to you) of starting wealth can be crafted.
I am quite aware that it wouldn't ever really turn out to be double wealth, but even a 20% boost to effective wealth is considerable, and that's easily obtained from a single feat, maybe two.
You only have to "ROLL out the contrivances" if you're trying to prevent them from crafting. If you're that much against it, then just don't allow the feats. You really can't have it both ways. Either the players can craft or they can't. Make up your mind and stick to it.
The thought was more along the vein of, if the PCs are given as much time as necessary to craft whatever they'd like, then it would throw off the treasure balance considerably. Which is what I've heard happens, and what I've seen evidenced several times.
Two things: No, it's not "that good." It's good. You really don't end up with more powerful items, you just end up with a few more. And that's only if the PC has received fungible wealth instead of items.
I honestly disagree. If you're capable of making your own magic items, then it would be plain out stupid not to, in terms of power only. That is to say, I might not want my poverty-stricken ranger to be making magic items, but from the aspect of power alone, he should. Really, the only feat that's stronger in terms of power would be leadership.
As for "verbally deride any character without it," I don't really know how to respond to that. Sounds like a great way to drive away players or get yourself uninvited from a game. It also seems entirely unjustified, given the fact that you apparently haven't actually tried it in a game, either as DM or player.
I was mostly being facetious, although I can tell from your tone that you're pretty turned off by what I've said so far. Let me see if I can vilify myself.
The hypothetical imagined scenario that takes place in my head is, say, a fighter going up to a fighter's guild to apply for a job. The recruitment fighter takes one look at his application, notices he doesn't have craft arms and armor and tells him to get the hell out for making such terrible build choices. Because, yeah, it's worth it.
And that's something I very much want to avoid, but am afraid will happen.
I've participated in several of these threads and the posters tend to fall firmly into two camps. Those against, who are convinced it will "destroy everything" and have therefore never allowed it, and those for, who have tried it and don't have any problems with it.
We have done it before. I was a player and not a DM at the time, as I was much younger. It did mess up the campaign pretty badly as the player crafting items was both significantly more powerful and better equipped than the other characters.
The DM at the time ran a fairly strict campaign and that was the first time we'd ever used the feats. No one really expected them to be as effective as they were, and in a campaign that was fairly low-magic, they skewed things considerably.
Unrelated, there were also issues with the looting of allied corpses that caused our treasure limits to skyrocket rather dramatically. A similarly annoying issue I've not yet figured out a fair solution to in character, but not one that's necessarily relevant to this conversation.
Also, since crafting takes time, a new adventure might start before a crafter has made all of the items since he intended since the last adventure finished.
This is an interesting balance I haven't yet had the chance to play with. How much time makes sense depends largely on the circumstances between the two adventures. Do the players have a week? A day? An hour? Most likely they won't be sitting around for a year with nothing to do, but if it benefits a player, he might well try to do it.
Another thing to consider is the time it takes. I just finished playing in a campaign that had a fairly strict timeline. Our wizard was a crafter, but we had hardly anytime to do any crafting, so it was hardly used. Now, if you're prone to give player's tons of downtime, it could come to haunt you, but if they're doing a ton of crafting, then like
stringburka mentioned, take their gear into account when handing out treasure.
+1 This.
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Another thing to consider is the time it takes. I just finished playing in a campaign that had a fairly strict timeline. Our wizard was a crafter, but we had hardly anytime to do any crafting, so it was hardly used. Now, if you're prone to give player's tons of downtime, it could come to haunt you, but if they're doing a ton of crafting, then like
stringburka mentioned, take their gear into account when handing out treasure.+1 This.
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If your players devote a precious feat slot to an ability, it's your job as DM to allow them to use it. Or at least, allow them the opportunity (whether they do or not is their choice).
If you know or expect that you'll run a game with a wicked timeline, then restrict the feats - don't let a player blunder into a trap of taking even one feat that you know he won't get to use. That's just unfair.
Let them use it, or prevent them from wasting their precious resources acquiring it.
In my eyes, as player AND as GM, the Wealth/Level recommendation stands.Only part of the loot is cash, other stuff will be sold. No big gain there.
But what if a meager 10% of a player's wealth from a level is in coins? That sounds below what would be likely, but we'll use it as an example. That's an extra 10% wealth, which at level 12 is something like an extra 10,000 gold. As I've said several times so far, that is considerably more powerful than most any other feat out there.
Now let's pretend that instead the sole player with the craft feat takes the 10% coins share of every single party member, leaving them with the items. Now he's at 40,000 extra gold . . .
Even if there was a gain in some way, that doesn't mean they should get stacked. The loot they find can be lower, they DID burn a feat, and the advantage you get for that is customized equipment that is readily available.
Again, my point is that the feat grants so much more benefit than any other that you almost can't pass it up.
Unless you have Magic-Marts in every little village, some of the more advanced equipment will be hard, if not impossible, to come by.
A metropolis is only a teleport away in a higher-level campaign.
Being able to mostly custom-equip a big part of the group is worth so much to my players they usually take master craftsman for armor/weapon/bows and leave the other magical items to the casters.
That's actually totally my point. Being able to maximize your resources in such a manner IS power. Having 100,000 gold worth of gear that's perfectly optimized is far better than 100,000 gold in gear that's poorly optimized. The ability to do the former from the latter is a huge boon to general power, yes?
I'm honestly not sure where you were going with your post . . . you started out by saying the feats were fine, then demonstrated how powerful they are. : \
A fighter really grand with his elven curved blade? No good if all you find are longswords and falchions...you catch my drift.
While I personally strive to put in treasure that isn't useless and wouldn't restrict my fighter's ability to further enhance his elven curve blade, there is a reason that exotic weapons are rare and exotic. If every other weapon they found was an elven curve blade, that would be rather dumb.
IF, and only if they are trying to run a profit from their skills(it's hard to argue that YOU are buying full price for stuff in a shop, but a fresh-made, perfect item has to be sold for half price despite high diplomacy/appraise/charisma...) you should use the GM toolkits...such as not giving them time to craft, or ruining their business in other ways.
That's just not something I'm interested in, to be honest. If they want to spend their time creating a business, I wouldn't go out of my way to ruin it.
I have recently just begun roleplaying again and found a group that is playing Pathfinder and I love it. I have a halfling cleric with 3 Magic Item Creation feats and I have rubbed my DM the wrong way with the talk. I have come to the realization that it is just up to the DM. I am very lawful when it comes to rules. I take the route that if a DM is going to restrict how I can use my feats, he should also restrict the fighter using cleave.
One of the things that we discussed were the restricting/discounting. That will likely not happen.
I personaly think the rules are fine. You have to burn feats to be able to create items. It does take a long time to make the items. A failed check at the end of the creation means all the money and time used to make the item was wasted and might even create a cursed item. Keeping spell slots open while adventuring so you can cast the spell everyday. There are a lot of things a player must sacrifice to be able to create a magic item. It ain't a walk in the park.
I play with a barbarian who does a minimum of 7 damage when he hits. My halfling cleric might do 5 if he's lucky.
Don't forget that you often can't craft just anywhere. You need a Clean, Well-Lit Environment, and to craft Weapons, Armor, Rings, or Potions you need a heat source.
Furthermore, Brouge, Don't forget you can easily adjust what treasure your party finds if they start getting too rich. If just one player is ahead, well, he sold one of his very valuable, and scarce feats for that money.
Also, Without stretches of downtime, you can only craft 2 hours per day while adventuring. to get 10,000 gp ahead takes 40 days of in game time. That's not a little time, and a lot of adventures could happen during that time, during which your crafter is actually behind in treasure because a portion of his loot is tied up in an item that he can't use yet.
Don't forget that you often can't craft just anywhere. You need a Clean, Well-Lit Environment, and to craft Weapons, Armor, Rings, or Potions you need a heat source.
Also, Without stretches of downtime, you can only craft 2 hours per day while adventuring. to get 10,000 gp ahead takes 40 days of in game time. That's not a little time, and a lot of adventures could happen during that time, during which your crafter is actually behind in treasure because a portion of his loot is tied up in an item that he can't use yet.
Am I misreading the Crafting Magic Items section on these points? I thought the necessity for a "Clean, Well-Lit Environment" was only a caveat to working eight hours and getting eight hours of work done. I thought you could work four hours and get two hours done while adventuring without the above. Or, if you have eight hours while adventuring, spend two four hours blocks to get 4 hours done for four hours done per day while adventuring. Is that not correct?
Furthermore, Brouge, Don't forget you can easily adjust what treasure your party finds if they start getting too rich. If just one player is ahead, well, he sold one of his very valuable, and scarce feats for that money.
I do understand that. But it does seem to me to be significantly better than the vast majority of feats, as I've said several times. So much better that, in terms of mechanics and power, a powerful build should always include it.
Seems you have made your mind up already. Either allow them and see what happens, or don't as you appear to be leaning towards.
Another thing to consider is the time it takes. I just finished playing in a campaign that had a fairly strict timeline. Our wizard was a crafter, but we had hardly anytime to do any crafting, so it was hardly used. Now, if you're prone to give player's tons of downtime, it could come to haunt you, but if they're doing a ton of crafting, then like
stringburka mentioned, take their gear into account when handing out treasure.+1 This.
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If your players devote a precious feat slot to an ability, it's your job as DM to allow them to use it. Or at least, allow them the opportunity (whether they do or not is their choice).
If you know or expect that you'll run a game with a wicked timeline, then restrict the feats - don't let a player blunder into a trap of taking even one feat that you know he won't get to use. That's just unfair.
Let them use it, or prevent them from wasting their precious resources acquiring it.
Sorry i should have elaborated. My point was that with a lot of downtime it can unbalance a campaign, in my experience. Conversely if there's no downtime whatsoever, then the feats are not worth it. In either campaign i agree that restricting the feats is the only fair option.
If the campaign has a steady timeline with not too much or too little downtime then crafting feats are fine.
Seems you have made your mind up already.
No, I'm just worried that the feats may imbalance the campaign, so I'm attempting to respond to every point brought up so I can have my points countered and my fears allayed.
So far I've seen a lot of valid opinions, points, and ideas in this thread, that have made a lot of sense, but I'm still worried and not fully convinced that it'll all turn out well. ;-)
The biggest point that I've made that so far hasn't been countered is the value of the feats in power as compared to other feats. Everything else said so far has had a lot of weight behind it and has gotten me thinking pretty hard.
End of the day, I really do want to allow these feats so the player in question can enjoy them, but I'd feel better if I could do it without worrying that they might cause problems. So anything else that anyone has to add to the conversation would be much appreciated. :)
Don't know if this helps or not, but in 2e if the party wanted to craft an item, they had to find the materials firsthand. Want an adamantine sword? Find some adamantine from under the volcanic mountain (which they'd find where it existed by character knowledge or by visiting a sage).
I grapple with the usefulness/value comparison to other feats and am considering implementing this in future campaigns, where the crafter doesn't need a feat per se, just ranks in the Craft skill and the necessary materials.
Seems you have made your mind up already.No, I'm just worried that the feats may imbalance the campaign, so I'm attempting to respond to every point brought up so I can have my points countered and my fears allayed.
So far I've seen a lot of valid opinions, points, and ideas in this thread, that have made a lot of sense, but I'm still worried and not fully convinced that it'll all turn out well. ;-)
The biggest point that I've made that so far hasn't been countered is the value of the feats in power as compared to other feats. Everything else said so far has had a lot of weight behind it and has gotten me thinking pretty hard.
End of the day, I really do want to allow these feats so the player in question can enjoy them, but I'd feel better if I could do it without worrying that they might cause problems. So anything else that anyone has to add to the conversation would be much appreciated. :)
Worrying causes wrinkles :) . You can't control everything your players do, rolling with the punches is half the fun of DM'ing. Remember a Rust monster fixes most problems in life, except flying books at your head :).
I hadn't heard those terms before yesterday, so I only just looked them up, so forgive me if I have them a little wrong.
I don't think I'm gamist. I like story and seeing how the story unfolds. Despite what you seem to have read into my posts in regards to controlling the game, what I do control is usually only mechanical elements that prevent the dice part of the game from going wonky. I do have a couple of players that seem to be what you refer to as gamist. Among other things, they'll feel cheated if their character's power is ever reduced (nerfed), but not if their character's power is increased to that same level from a pre-emptively nerfed level. Logically, they're at the exact same power level they would be either way, but logic seems to not factor in for some reason.
What I really want, above all else, is to make a game where everyone is happy and enjoying themselves. Sometimes this, unfortunately, means catering a bit to things I dislike, such as the above. Being a fairly rational person, simply being forced to engage in the above aggravates me.
These same players have a very childlike mentality in some ways. I personally dislike using rust monsters and the like simply because it makes them unnecessarily upset. Just the other day I used a dragon which they had to negotiate with, and they ended up walking out losing a large amount of spare treasure. Nothing they were using, just spare treasure, and one player was upset enough to tell me in no uncertain terms what a dumb encounter that was. There was much more to the encounter than just that, but it illustrates my point, I suppose.
So, TL;DR, I go through a lot of extra work to keep them happy, or at least try to, and this is a part of that.
I was just reading the PHB and was wondering...when you make your spellcraft check to craft a magic item, can you take 10?
I didn't think you could, but after reading the Taking 10 and Taking 20 section...I'm not so sure.
I was just reading the PHB and was wondering...when you make your spellcraft check to craft a magic item, can you take 10?
I didn't think you could, but after reading the Taking 10 and Taking 20 section...I'm not so sure.
Yes, you can. You can't, however, Take 20.
Some DMs don't like this since they assume that a character won't attempt to craft an item until it can be done by taking 10 (and, thus, safely), so many houserule that players can't. Personally, I find this unnecessary, since waiting until you can take 10 is a self limiting action that prevents difficult (and presumably more useful) items from being crafted earlier. YMMV.
The point of crafting is to make the item you want for cheaper. If you find the item you want in a treasure, then it's basically free, and crafting was a waste of a feat for that adventure.
It comes down to player choice. If they want to craft, why not? If you feel some players are getting too much treasure there are better ways of bringing them back in line than saying "No! You Can't!" If just one person has too much money, the leave items tailored for everyone else but him. Don't be to obvious about it, but you'd be surprised how much that person won't notice. Usually crafters would rather craft exactly what they want anyway.
As far as "Feat Power" crafting feats, much more so than other feats, are as powerful as the DM lets them be. Crafting gives you two things, options and money. If you feel the players should have less options, (perhaps magic is harder to come by in your campaign) you can make crafting harder. If you feel your players should have less money, GIVE THEM LESS! Everyone suggests this because it's the best fix.
This is because the gamist tends to view them as things that you personally decided to do to them personally.
Wow, you described my situation exactly. That is exactly how they (he) thinks. The way I personally play is to create an interesting, fun, and engaging story. I guess that would make me primarily narritivist. I do, however, like to keep with logical and thematic realism. For example, the necromancer's lair is filled mostly with undead, no angels there. And the forest doesn't have many random demons. Would that be a simulationist trait, then, in that I'm creating a themed area?
On the main topic, though, thank you everyone for your input and suggestions. I'll be giving it some heavy thought this week as we lead up to our first session on the new campaign.
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I have a question: the rules state you can add any enchantment to a preexisting item, well I wanted to add the Celestial armor enchantment on to a suit of mithral full plate of speed. How would you handle it?
The way I figured it was that the Celestial Armor enchantment, improved the max dex by 6 and reduced the armor check penalty by 3. Mithral would increase the max dex by a further 2 and reduce the armor check penalty by 2, because the 1 point for masterwork is already included.
celestial armor is a specific armor and not an enchant that can be added later by the RAW. My interpretation is that the secrets of its crafting is known to angels who live in the outer planes, and represents their perfection at crafting. If an angel armorsmith made a full-plate version, I would think that it would resemble the mithril mods to armor without needing to be mithril, since celestial armor is not mithril per say. Not sure i would combine the too, myself.
As for crafting, the number one way you reign in a crafter is through keeping an eye on his pocketbook. Crafters generally craft not only for themselves but for the whole party (unless they only have scribe scroll). If you keep an eye on the treasure, making sure its reasonable, the crafter will be able to use his feat without going overboard.
Another thing you can do is make the materials needed to crafts slightly more complicated, which is what we do. A crafter cannot just pour GP into a pot and come out with a healing potion. They need specific materials to get the job done, such as red dragon scale or eye of newt, etc. Sometimes these materials are available from the local apothecary, sometimes they aren't.
If you want to be simulationist about it, you could set a % chance in the current town of whether crafting mats are available and roll for it. It could also be an appraise check from the player to see if he discovers worthy materials.
That all said try not to be too heavy handed in reigning in your crafters. Making the feat essentially useless only encourages the perception that you are punishing the player. Part of the fun of a crafting feat is getting to craft equipment that is specific to the party, rather than the finding of random treasure.
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Celestial armor is not an enchantment it's a base set of armor like mithral chainmail. It's not something to be added. but is made that way straight up. Ergo it's not something you can stack with mithral or even ordinary steel.I have a question: the rules state you can add any enchantment to a preexisting item, well I wanted to add the Celestial armor enchantment on to a suit of mithral full plate of speed. How would you handle it?
How is that not an enchantment? It's a suit of chainmail with an incredibly good maximum dex, meaning for all but the ultra-athletes, functionally super humans, that it might as well be like wearing air. That sounds to me like magic, and if it's a magic in item form, then it is clearly an enchantment.
Sorry, I've been away for a bit, but I'm back, heh.
I did have another question that's aimed at those that agree that item creation is balanced.
Assuming you follow the treasure guidelines in the core rulebook, you do get a set amount of treasure. So far, a lot of people have said that item creation only lets you customize what treasure you get, rather than basically getting double. But someone brought up to me that often you won't get anything you want from an adventure, meaning you're forced to sell *everything*, at which point you really do double your treasure with these feats.
This was brought up on our last session, when we ended an adventure with my fighter leveling up to level 5 and having obtained the following:
910 gold
A masterwork longsword (I'm using a masterwork cold iron longsword)
A golden goblet which detects poison on any liquids placed inside it (worth 1000 gold)
A Holy Symbol of Sarenrae worth 100 gold
Masterwork thieves' tools
900 gold in "art" items.
This was obtained from a published Pathfinder adventure module.
Now, this is theoretical, since my fighter doesn't actually have these feats, but taking this treasure which I found, and which was my share of the loot (the lion's share, to be honest), I could sell all this and have about 2600 gold. Or if I made items, I could have 5200 gold worth of stuff. Probably a bit less, since I don't know of any items that cost exactly 5200 gold.
So I suppose I just don't see the point that item creation feats only give customization. To me, they really do seem to give you a considerable amount of gold.
Table 12–4: Character Wealth by Level
PC Level* Wealth
2 1,000 gp
3 3,000 gp
4 6,000 gp
5 10,500 gp
I don't see the issue.
*sigh*
Really? Seriously?
OK, I'll admit that THAT one is a little annoying. You don't see an issue with completely double treasure?
The fact that the module left the group VASTLY undertreasured is moot. Option A (No magic item creation) means 2600 gold in gear. Option B (Magic item creation) means 5200 gold in gear.
In other words, following that trend, a character starting at level 1 and leveling to level 12, and getting bad luck, or poor choice via the module's author, literally would end up with double treasure.
Can you quote a pointlessly unhelpful passage to respond to that?
By the way, answering your quote directly, I'd be left with 11,200 gold in treasure, only 5% more than I should have, but almost double what my group would have. They only got about 1800 gold in gems and coins. I went from something like 80% treasure to 105% with those feats.
Brogue, what is your main fear? That the party would become more powerful than they should be or that *one* character will become more powerful than the others?
A combination of the two, actually. The warlock that wants to craft items is already quite powerful, and I'm afraid that he'd jump ahead of the other PCs rather quickly with this added in.
But it's also partly the latter. While I agree in theory that simply upping the difficulty would work . . . in our experience it hasn't. In a semi-recent adventure, the party got access to vast amounts of wealth that was basically a screwup on my part. It was then a significant challenge to find encounters of their CR that weren't abnormally easy without throwing multiple black puddings or rust monsters at them. Eventually I corrected the treasure imbalance, but I noticed that while it was imbalanced, they accrued experience at a ridiculously quick rate. Since an EL 15 was about as difficult for them (at level 13) as an EL 12 was at level 12 with the appropriate treasure. In order to balance this, I had to start statting monsters with increased stats that accounted for their increased power level, and thereby increase EL difficulty without giving more experience for an appropriately difficult kill. It became annoying and messy, and a lot more extra work than was necessary.
That's why those feats are banned for Society play.
Wow, I actually had no idea these feats were banned for Society play. That actually helps quite a bit. Thank you for your input. :)
Can you quote a pointlessly unhelpful passage to respond to that?
I certainly could!
Paper Walls: Paper walls are placed as screens to block line of sight, but nothing more.
Now that I've answered your angry internet based retort, perhaps we can discuss this civilly?
The easiest solution is to pay attention to your players, what they use, what the don't use. If you litter the next 5 levels with lower cost gear they will be delighted to equip, and there is a bevvy of that, while avoiding the lazy pitfall of "You find 2d6 art treasure items worth %roll X 100" you can guide their estimated wealth to the correct track again as the player with the item creation feats no longer has a disposable income of useless high priced gear to dissolve into whatever he wants. Some classics are stat increasing gear, as I find most pathfinder adventures do not include enough of these, and all players greedily snap them up and equip them. And then when it is approaching what you would like, Drop some more random treasure on them and give your player the joy of... playing the game?
Brogue, what is your main fear? That the party would become more powerful than they should be or that *one* character will become more powerful than the others?A combination of the two, actually. The warlock that wants to craft items is already quite powerful, and I'm afraid that he'd jump ahead of the other PCs rather quickly with this added in.
But it's also partly the latter. While I agree in theory that simply upping the difficulty would work . . . in our experience it hasn't. In a semi-recent adventure, the party got access to vast amounts of wealth that was basically a screwup on my part. It was then a significant challenge to find encounters of their CR that weren't abnormally easy without throwing multiple black puddings or rust monsters at them. Eventually I corrected the treasure imbalance, but I noticed that while it was imbalanced, they accrued experience at a ridiculously quick rate. Since an EL 15 was about as difficult for them (at level 13) as an EL 12 was at level 12 with the appropriate treasure. In order to balance this, I had to start statting monsters with increased stats that accounted for their increased power level, and thereby increase EL difficulty without giving more experience for an appropriately difficult kill. It became annoying and messy, and a lot more extra work than was necessary.
Are you using 3.5 monsters? Or by EL do you mean CR? The CR system is not always perfect. There are a variety of ways in which following the CR system can fail you. Wealth, skilled players, facing them off against large single monsters with 1/4th he amount of actions ...
Item Creation in 3.5, and by proxy it's inheritor Pathfinder, is a bizzare tripod of new rules.
First, item creation itself. In 3.0, Item Creation was changed radically from previous 2nd edition incarnations, where you would permanently sacrifice con to make items. As bad as it seemed, XP was chump change compared to constitution points. Other aspects of the system were likewise changed or added, such as spell prerequisites and caster levels.
Second, feats: 3.0 introduced feats and attempted to fit the Item Creation functionality within them.
Third (and most important): Wealth By Level. This did not exist in 2nd edition, certainly not as we know it now.
The item creation system has long been stated by both DMs and the game developers as an "art more than a science". It is my personal opinion that it takes a skilled DM to handle item creation on the part of the PCs, and DMs who do not think themselves up to the challenge should disallow it as an option. Of course, I think Leadership is also in that same category.
Here is an important question: what do you think Wealth By Level means? Is its the sum of the PCs gear and equipment's value? Does it mean all the money a PC has access to? Does it mean all the assets he has, even intangible ones like favors owed and land?
To me, Wealth By Level guidelines are for what a given character brings with him on any given day of adventuring, or may immediately liquidate to solve a financial dilemma. If the character chooses to decorate his home with the random art objects he recovers from a dungeon, then I will not count that against his "wealth by level" total. Granted, he may have to deal with some theives now and then, or pushy art collectors/museum curators/cultural preservers, but a life size elf maiden statue sitting in the corner of his bathroom is not "gear", and if he doesn't plan to sell it, it never will be, so it should not be counted against his "gear" total.
Likewise for property. If the PCs decide to pool their money to buy themselves a boat, they should not be penalized for it. Could you consider a boat a peice of gear, like a crowbar or a helmet? Does it provide a mechanical bonus in combat, like a Belt of Strength or a +1 weapon?
Remember, any gold, art objects, or for that matter, anything that isn't providing them a mechanical (actual numbers) or common sense (like having a tent when traveling) bonus or advantage either right at the moment (cloak of resistance, magic armor) or in the forseeable future (mw lockpicks, cure potions, etc) flat out is not gear.
Here, a wild example. The genie at the bottom of the dungeon says he will give a character their choice of the following: one hundred thousand gold coins, or an "adventurers package" consisting of appropriately sized and proficiency based MW armor, MW melee weapon, MW ranged weapon, 4 CLW potions, 1 healers kit, MW theives tools, 4 bags of caltrops, 2 tanglefoot bags, 5 sunrods, and 5 days of rations, all stored in a Hewards Handy Haversack. The genie also states that after the choice is made, all the monsters in the dungeon will revive and quadruple in number.
The adventuring kit is worth every single copper of its roughly 4000gp price tag (half of which is the bag it comes in). The 100k of gold coins is only as valuable as your own ability to get it safely out of the dungeon (and no, he didn't say bags of coins, just 100k in coins. Hope you brought some sacks).
An item crafter is able to turn loot into useful and customized to need items, but at the cost of both personal power (feats and skill points spent) and time (lots of it after level 7 or so, when most items take at least a week to make, minimum).
Those are huge constraints. Just look at the earlier APs published in Dungeon. In Age of Worms, I would never play an item crafter, the feats would be dead weight from levels 15+. But in Savage Tide...lots of time available on boat trips and colony building. Much different story then.
And the DM is the one who controls the time of the game world. Sure, a character could hole up and item craft for half a year, turning a few adventures worth of loot into a set of perfectly tuned gear. Only if you let him. Other adventurers might come knocking to hire his services as an item creator, or to steal from him. The people he did quests for in the past might have new requests, and ignoring them to make items could have consequences.
Finally, if you are worried an item crafter is going to pimp himself out and leave the party in the dust, thats a problem with the player, not the feat. If a barbarian doesn't want to use rage to make sure he kills the goblin and prevents it from coup-de-graceing the fallen rogue, because he wants to "save it just for himself", then the problem isn't with rage, its with having a selfish jerk in the party.
All I can really say on the matter. Here's hoping you find the stance you want and that works for your group, whatever that may be.