Foresight School

[The Chort]

I'm trying to weigh the value of one of the Focused Arcane Schools from the APG, the Foresight School.

Foresight School
Associated School: Divination.
Replacement Powers: The following school powers
replace the diviner’s fortune and scrying adept powers of
the divination school.

Prescience (Su):

At the beginning of your turn, you
may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before
your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the
result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do
not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You
can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 +
your Intelligence modifier.

Foretell (Su):

At 8th level, you can utter a prediction of
the immediate future. While your foretelling is in effect,
you emit a 30-foot aura of fortune that aids your allies
or hinders your enemies, as chosen by you at the time of
prediction. If you choose to aid, you and your allies gain
a +2 luck bonus on ability checks, attack rolls, caster level
checks, saving throws, and skill checks. If you choose
to hinder, your enemies take a –2 penalty on those rolls
instead. You can use this ability for a number of rounds
per day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not
need to be consecutive.

Okay, questions about Prescience:

1. Any d20 roll you are required to make: Does that mean any d20 roll of your choosing or something forced, like a saving throw?

2. Can you make the roll and based upon that decide whether or not you want to replace it with your prescient roll, or do you have to replace the roll with the prescient roll before rolling it at all?

Questions about Foretell:

1. Is this a free action?

2. A round constitutes when you initiated it until the beginning of your next turn, right?

3. What does this all affect? Are caster level checks exclusively for Spell Resistance or does it have other applications? Examples of ability checks?

Regardless, it's seems powerful to be able to turn on an ability that grants you and your friends a luck bonus similar to having an extra Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Spell Penetration, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, etc. for a number of rounds per day.

[Enlight_Bystand]

Prescience- Yes, any time when you pick up a d20. RAW you can use it after you've rolled, but wether that was what was intended, I'm not sure

Foresight - Unless otherwise stated, SU abilities are always a standard action. That is the appropriate definition of a round. Ability checks are anything that asks you to roll just your stat modifier, so Strength Checks to break an object, Initiative (specifically defined as such), Con Checks to stabilise. Caster level checks are also used in spells like remove posion, break enchantment and dispel magic IIRC.

It's powerful, yes, but not exceptionally powerful compared to other school abilities. A Bard will be pumping out a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls, damage and certain saves by this point, with a far greater range, with a move action to start, and potentially for twice as long.

[The Chort]

Enlight_Bystand wrote:

Prescience- Yes, any time when you pick up a d20. RAW you can use it after you've rolled, but wether that was what was intended, I'm not sure

Foresight - Unless otherwise stated, SU abilities are always a standard action. That is the appropriate definition of a round. Ability checks are anything that asks you to roll just your stat modifier, so Strength Checks to break an object, Initiative (specifically defined as such), Con Checks to stabilise. Caster level checks are also used in spells like remove posion, break enchantment and dispel magic IIRC.

It's powerful, yes, but not exceptionally powerful compared to other school abilities. A Bard will be pumping out a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls, damage and certain saves by this point, with a far greater range, with a move action to start, and potentially for twice as long.

Still a little torn on foresight because you "can utter a prediction of the immediate future." Uttering something is usually a free action, so long as it's within a reasonable amount of words. Wish they explicitly stated what it was. >.< Still hoping that I can make a judgment on the situation and decide to foretell as a free action when I'm up against an enemy that may be hard to hit, whether it's their AC or Spell Resistance. The other bonuses would be gravy.

[The Chort]

Still hoping to find some answers in regards to Foresight: Is it a free action, standard action, or what? I'd like to hear others' thoughts on it.

So after rolling a d20 in the round that you've used Prescience, I imagine you have to replace your roll with the prescient roll before the results are announced? Otherwise...

Player: "I rolled a 4."
GM: "You failed the Fort Sa-"
Player: "I replace it with my prescient roll."
GM: *sigh* "You're fine."

...probably not the case?

[skrahen]

I think by the wording, "...At any point before
your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the
result of any d20 roll you are required to make." at any point could be after the roll but before it is applied. there is a space between reveal and application. wonderful ability either way though. i am currently playing a 5th level diviner, and the gm just let me switch to the current sub-specialization of foresight when the APG came out. i haven't got to use the prescience ability yet but I'm looking forward to it. i have got tons of use out of the forewarned ability, its awesome to always get to act in the surprise round, and the initiative mod is helpful too, i usually get to go before the rogue. these awesome abilities make up for the crap spells in the school.

[The Chort]

skrahen wrote:

I think by the wording, "...At any point before

your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the
result of any d20 roll you are required to make." at any point could be after the roll but before it is applied. there is a space between reveal and application. wonderful ability either way though. i am currently playing a 5th level diviner, and the gm just let me switch to the current sub-specialization of foresight when the APG came out. i haven't got to use the prescience ability yet but I'm looking forward to it. i have got tons of use out of the forewarned ability, its awesome to always get to act in the surprise round, and the initiative mod is helpful too, i usually get to go before the rogue. these awesome abilities make up for the crap spells in the school.

Indeed. Since they made Divination a school like any other to be specialized or opposed, I think they made a point of giving some cool stuff to the Diviner Specialist. However, depending on the campaign and the GM, divination spells can be pretty handy. Although it is tough to have to fill one divination spell at every level... I'm looking forward to Ultimate Magic. Hopefully they'll have some useful spells like Unluck or Assay Spell Resistance and maybe some better higher level spells.

[skrahen]

Just got to use the prescience ability...very first roll was a twenty, wonderfully witnessed by no less than three other players... rock on. i then proceeded to use it to crit an enemy alchemist with shocking grasp for 48 points of damage which is totally different than what i would have done if i wasn't sure i had a crit coming. and it makes it nearly impossible for you to fumble if you are using fumble rules(we are). love it. the flavor of the ability is perfect also. i used it on a stealth check later in the game and the paladin was all like "..you shouldn't sneak up there with the rogue", and i was all like "don't worry, i know how this is going to turn out." felt like a diviner should.

[Abraham spalding]

skrahen wrote:

Just got to use the prescience ability...very first roll was a twenty, wonderfully witnessed by no less than three other players... rock on. i then proceeded to use it to crit an enemy alchemist with shocking grasp for 48 points of damage which is totally different than what i would have done if i wasn't sure i had a crit coming. and it makes it nearly impossible for you to fumble if you are using fumble rules(we are). love it. the flavor of the ability is perfect also. i used it on a stealth check later in the game and the paladin was all like "..you shouldn't sneak up there with the rogue", and i was all like "don't worry, i know how this is going to turn out." felt like a diviner should.

Take a few levels of cleric and go mystic theurge:

Luck Domain.

rules wrote:

Bit of Luck (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, giving it a bit of luck. For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Good Fortune (Ex): At 6th level, you can reroll any one roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, and one additional time per day for every six cleric levels beyond 6th.

so you could roll twice for your prescience and take the better of the two rolls to spend at some point during your turn.

IF you take the levels in cleric to get to the 6th level ability you could simply reroll the prescience roll if you got a low number.

[angryscrub]

couldn't find any other threads about this so i'm hoping a bump might get an answer about foretelling. is it a free action or not?

[The Chort]

angryscrub wrote:

couldn't find any other threads about this so i'm hoping a bump might get an answer about foretelling. is it a free action or not?

*pops back in* I'm still hoping to get that answer too. xP

[Josh M Foster]

Honestly, as an action is not specified I think it's free. You're burning rounds per day when you do it. I see it as an on/off sort of thing. The "utter" is the deciding factor for me. The lack of specification is difficult, though.

Well... that was my opinion, then I read this:

Supernatural Abilities (Su) wrote:

Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The ability is silent, so it's standard by the RAW.

[uriel222]

The Chort wrote:

Okay, questions about Prescience...

2. Can you make the roll and based upon that decide whether or not you want to replace it with your prescient roll, or do you have to replace the roll with the prescient roll before rolling it at all?

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but has this ever been ruled on? I'm making a new Diviner, and I was wondering about the same question.

[Russ Taylor]

uriel222 wrote:

The Chort wrote:

Okay, questions about Prescience...

2. Can you make the roll and based upon that decide whether or not you want to replace it with your prescient roll, or do you have to replace the roll with the prescient roll before rolling it at all?

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but has this ever been ruled on? I'm making a new Diviner, and I was wondering about the same question.

It's intended to work like the cleric auras, so I believe that makes it a standard action to turn on. At least that's how we handle cleric auras. :)

[uriel222]

Russ Taylor wrote:

uriel222 wrote:

The Chort wrote:

Okay, questions about Prescience...

2. Can you make the roll and based upon that decide whether or not you want to replace it with your prescient roll, or do you have to replace the roll with the prescient roll before rolling it at all?

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but has this ever been ruled on? I'm making a new Diviner, and I was wondering about the same question.

It's intended to work like the cleric auras, so I believe that makes it a standard action to turn on. At least that's how we handle cleric auras. :)

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. I think we're talking at cross-purposes, because this ability couldn't work as a standard action.

PFSRD wrote:

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

The main question I have, is can you replace the result after you roll, or do you have to choose to use it before?

[james maissen]

uriel222 wrote:

The Chort wrote:

Okay, questions about Prescience...

2. Can you make the roll and based upon that decide whether or not you want to replace it with your prescient roll, or do you have to replace the roll with the prescient roll before rolling it at all?

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but has this ever been ruled on? I'm making a new Diviner, and I was wondering about the same question.

It hasn't been 'ruled' on in the sense of a FAQ, but the argument in this thread above concerning 'at any time' is sound.

If such were not a valid time then many abilities that spell it out that it can be after the roll but before it is applied could not work.

Russ was commenting on the higher level ability, which sadly does take a standard action to activate.

-James

[uriel222]

james maissen wrote:

uriel222 wrote:

The Chort wrote:

Okay, questions about Prescience...

2. Can you make the roll and based upon that decide whether or not you want to replace it with your prescient roll, or do you have to replace the roll with the prescient roll before rolling it at all?

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but has this ever been ruled on? I'm making a new Diviner, and I was wondering about the same question.

It hasn't been 'ruled' on in the sense of a FAQ, but the argument in this thread above concerning 'at any time' is sound.

If such were not a valid time then many abilities that spell it out that it can be after the roll but before it is applied could not work.

Russ was commenting on the higher level ability, which sadly does take a standard action to activate.

-James

So if I use the ability and roll, say, a "10", and then rolled my attack and got an "8", I could replace the 8 with the 10?

[cp]

My .02:

a). Ref was ridiculous to impose a six level permanent level deduction without talking to you. The way you played it, while I don't agree with it, is a reasonable interpretation. And, its *his* responsibility to know the rules, and play fair.

b). The only specific mention of turns comes upon mention of combat.
I think this is a reasonable interpretation that this ability might only kick in under the adrenal fueled presence of danger.

c). So, personally, anytime there was an surprise enemy (trap, what have you) I would deem combat to be entered, and allow the foresight ability.

But I would not allow it during crafting, diplomacy, rolling for money from a job table etc.

d). Since its a game mechanic question (replacing a die roll) and not a character action, and since the action can be taken at any point in your turn regardless of the number of actions you have taken, I would rule it a free action.

[ValandilT]

uriel222 wrote:

So if I use the ability and roll, say, a "10", and then rolled my attack and got an "8", I could replace the 8 with the 10?

I'd say no.

If you check the cleric's Luck domain :

Quote:

Good Fortune (Ex): At 6th level, you can reroll any one roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, and one additional time per day for every six cleric levels beyond 6th.

The cleric's ability clearly says it is a re-roll. It is not about prescience ("I knew I'd succeed"), but luck ("Sheesh, almost fell but managed to hang on, phew!")

Now check Prescience's wording :

Quote:

At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make.

Keyword is required. You didn't make the roll yet. If you could reroll, it would most likely have said "of any d20 roll you make", or something along those lines.

Here required does NOT mean forced. If you want to attack, you are required to roll a d20 for the attack to happen.

Now it says "before your next turn", because as already mention you can use it after your turn is finished (for a save or what not).

In game this means :
- Beginning of my turn I take a free action to roll a d20 (prescience)
- During my turn I attack. I roll OR take my prescience roll. I choose to roll, so I still have my prescience roll in the bank. My turn ends.
- Enemy caster throws a fireball. I use my prescience roll for the reflex save.

------

As a player that's how I'd encourage the GM to view it. Else it's just too good at lvl 1. Keep in mind "Good Fortune" isn't as good (you could re-roll worse, potentially a fumble!) and it's a lvl 6 ability.