OK so I have a bit of a situation. I allowed a player in a game I am running to play a Warlock in a Pathfinder game. I looked over the class for the first time since Complete Arcane came out way back when, and thought to myself this shouldn't be a problem. The class gets 12 abilities to choose from over 20 levels, some of which I agree can be abusive, but I know the player and he just wants to blast every round with eldritch blast.
Now there's another player that is sort of passive agressively complaining about me allowing warlock because it is OMG SO BROKEN and overpowered etc etc. I just don't see it. I mean there are some things that don't mechanically fit with PF and I am tweaking them as we go along.
What should I watch out for? What is there at the level range we are playing (right now about 4th, in this part of the campaign about to level 7 or 8 before we go on hiatus). The big thing the other player is complaining about is the ability to make magic items without knowing the prerequisite at level 12. This was intended so that a warlock could make, say, a staff of healing without knowing healing spells and then use it. Given an infinite amount of downtime yeah it could be problematic. The way I'm pathfinderizing it is they use their UMD ranks as caster level, and can create spell trigger items without having the spell memorized (normally impossible) by increasing the UMD/craft DC by 5.
So what is OP in the class as written, what should I watch out for, and how might I tweak the class to let player A have fun but keep player B off my back.
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Warlocks are just fine IMO. I've played with several in the past and they are not even close to being as bad as a wizard can be. As for what to look out for....until something pops up in your game there is really nothing more than reading over the powers and being ready for them. Flying is something that frightens some DMs but if you know it's coming you can deal with it fine.
My suggestion- Until you see a problem with balance don't do anything. If player B wants to cry, put on your Big DM Pants and tell him to stuff his whining. Passive Aggressive whiney dude shouldn't get his way because he is annoying you. Player A seems to be having fun so until it impacts gameplay you should let it continue.
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There are a few potholes to watch out for. I've seen a warlock in 1st-5th level and 15th to 30th level.
Eldritch Blast gets the kneejerk reaction of being multiple d6s of damage at will, but this is no different than a Fighter. Only the ranged touch attack is a question. After a certain point, unless you specifically counter it, the Warlock WILL hit every round for xd6 damage. You need to be aware of this. However, it is only one target, good for boss battles but less so against large groups. The area shapes help but cut down the ranged part.
Make sure you know what invocations he chooses so you're not surprised when he uses them. Shatter, Charm, and Baleful Polymorph are strong choices that will be dangerous to average opponents, and he'll be doing them every encounter.
I didn't see a lot of crafting going on or UMDing, but that's an issue for any character.
The class is very narrow. As long as you know what his selections are, you can make the encounters as difficult as you want with proper defenses. The only flexibility he has is the UMD and crafting ability.
Broken? I'd honestly put it below every pathfinder core class in germs of power. They get twelve tricks over the course of twenty levels, and a good chunk of them are gonna be devoted to staying alive (fly, spider climb, etc). People see the dice rolling and get all up in arms. Yes, it's ranged touch. Yes, after 5th or so it's gonna be auto-succeed. Yes, it's at will. Big effing deal. At level 19 they're doing an average of 30-something damage to their opponents. They've got a few tricks, like chaining the blast, or turning it into a cone of cold, or even a glaive to make full round attacks. Rogues are going to out damage them, and probably provide better party support. Hell, barbarians have got them beat.
Overpowered? No. I wouldn't even call them powerful. Their sctick is being an arcane blaster, and they reasonably fail at even that.
Eldritch Blast is still only dice for damage and not the high static damage that Fighters can pump out, plus it's a, what, Standard Action? So once a round. 9d6 for damage at level 20 isn't impressive.
A Warlock's best invocations are the equivalent of 6th level spells. At a time when real casters have 9th level spells. I've heard the comparison of "what would you rather have, a pop-gun with unlimited ammo or a rocket launcher with a handful of reloads?" And (without burning feats for more) they'll have 12 invocations to select over 20 levels. There's a strong chance they'll be picking up the ones TriOmega mentioned plus Utterdark Blast and Eldritch Doom. Utterdark Blast and the negative level it throws out with each hit only shows up at 17th level, though, so while nice, still isn't a 9th level spell.
Warlocks are nice and can be fun to play, especially if you can play to their flavor text w/o being a douche (suggestion: Dr. Byron Orpheus), and they have some nice abilities to them, but overpowered they are not.
When I had a Warlock in my game, it was a broken build involving that race that gives a PC two characters that are twins. The player took the split ray feat and went nuts- drove the DM mad. I can't say there's much wrong with the Warlock per say, other than insanity with certain invocations and that yes, eldritch blast is waaaaaay overused.
When I had a Warlock in my game, it was a broken build involving that race that gives a PC two characters that are twins. The player took the split ray feat and went nuts- drove the DM mad. I can't say there's much wrong with the Warlock per say, other than insanity with certain invocations and that yes, eldritch blast is waaaaaay overused.
You can't use metamagic with eldritch blast :U
The idea that warlocks are "overpowered" blows my mind, especially in a game with wizards, clerics, and druids.
The idea that warlocks are "overpowered" blows my mind, especially in a game with wizards, clerics, and druids.
The concept of overpowered in general is really stupid.
Now there's another player that is sort of passive agressively complaining about me allowing warlock because it is OMG SO BROKEN and overpowered etc etc. I just don't see it. I mean there are some things that don't mechanically fit with PF and I am tweaking them as we go along.
1. The guy is on your team. If he's awesome, you win.
2. If you think it's so awesome, play it yourself.3. Some classes will always shine in some situations, where others shine in other situations. Is it fair that a wizard will almost inevitably suck at climbing up that dangerous cliff when he wasted his fly spells in the recent combat?
4. It's meant to be as balanced as possible, but still be different. If you had perfect equality, it would be 4e, where all the classes are almost exactly same crunch with different flavor. Basically, everyone would be a Factotum with a different backstory.
5. Any class can, with sufficient tinkering, be broken, especially when you add 3.x to Pathfinder. It's just too huge of a well to dip into to not be able to. Just look at the Wizards' Character Optimization boards, and you'll see a multitude of stuff, from their version of the Lancer, to the Prime Minister of Smack, to Pun Pun, to the Omniscficer...
If the Warlock isn't taking center stage and dominating every battle while the others feel like they're redshirts in a Trek movie, what's the big deal? If he is showboating and running things, that's a player issue, not a class issue.
I've played and DMed the warlock from level 3-10-ish, and in an epic level.
They're really good in campaigns where the battles are long and there are multiple encounters per day. They don't have to preserve resources (spell slots) like regular spellcasters.
But they're mostly strikers, doing consistent damage against a single target.
They're fun and easy! They don't require a lot of bookkeeping.
If your group is like my group, where there is usually only one or two battles a day, then there shouldn't be a problem.
They're a little weak for Pathfinder, but should be fun.
They are no t broken, and are great for people wanting to play a blaster character. That said, I did do a pathfinder verson found at www.mediafire.com/ElghinnLightbringer if you are interested.
Imho Warlocks are in no way OP in PF. The way that they can become somewhat of a show stealer is by "abusing" the spell-like ability feats, i.e. Mortal bane, and metamagic feats as they are x/day instead of increasing the spell level.
Also anyone who has played or played with a crusader will tell you whats powerful. Tome of battle is such an amazing book, fun, strong, versatile, and very unique classes. Imo alot of the ideas for 4.0 came from that book, only they made them all the same, and sucky.
If you plan on modifying the warlock, I would look at the alchemist to compare it to. Alchemists can, if i have this correctly, take a discovery to throw more than one bomb per round, however they are limited in the number of bombs they can throw out.
comparing the classes might help you decide what about the warlock's features might be too strong or too weak at the levels they get them. If I were redesigning the warlock, the alchemist is probably what I would pattern it after.
OK so I have a bit of a situation. I allowed a player in a game I am running to play a Warlock in a Pathfinder game. I looked over the class for the first time since Complete Arcane came out way back when, and thought to myself this shouldn't be a problem. The class gets 12 abilities to choose from over 20 levels, some of which I agree can be abusive, but I know the player and he just wants to blast every round with eldritch blast.
I don't think there's anything overpowered about the Warlock, and I've seen a few high-level ones in action. The main thing I feel about warlocks in play is that they're very repetitive. If my players are any indication, every round is going to be an eldritch blast unless some special need has arisen for something else in their inventory, which is fairly rare. There's nothing wrong with that and lots of people like somewhat simple to operate PCs.
Something to do a quick, dirty fix for the Warlock is increasing their Invocations per day by a third, or allowing them to take up the old 3.5 Assassin's Spell-list and Spells-Per-Day, stretched over 20 levels, naturally, which can help give them that little bit of kick to keep competitive in Pathfinder. So instead of having 12 Invocations known, the Warlock could have 4 least, 4 lesser, 4 greater and 4 dark invocations available, or the ability to cast the old 3.5 Assassin Spells which can enable them to save those precious Invocations Known for the 'right' ones while they use their own spells to mimic more 'utility' or 'specialty' Invocations.
I loved the Warlock, even though I only ever got to play one once and play in a party with a Warlock as part of the regular line-up twice. With their Decieve Item ability, they could perform quite well as a backup Arcanist and their ability to stand there and blow s+@% up all day long enabled the party Wizard/Sorcerer to ditch a lot of the blasty spells and focus on their defensive, crowd-controlling and buffing abilities. Furthermore they made a great 'tragic' or 'anti-hero' character fodder for players who otherwise had difficulty role-playing.
Something you might want to throw the player....
Eldritch Destruction
Prerequisities: Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast), Eldritch Blast 4d6.
Benefit: A number of times per day equal to his Charisma Modifier, the Warlock can focus all his mystical energies into a single concussive burst of energy. This use of the Eldritch Blast only has a range of 30 feet, but doubles the damage dealt by the Eldritch Blast and can overcome Damage Reduction of Cold Iron, Silver or Magic, but not any combination of the above. Hardness from Objects is ignored for this specific use of Eldritch Blast.
Special: Once a Warlock uses Eldritch Destruction, the Warlock cannot use their Eldritch Blast ability for a number of rounds equal to half their Warlock Level.
Warlocks were never OP. Now, the fact that they can Shatter objects at will, or Fly all the time, or Spiderclimb all day, or go Invisible at will sometimes made DM's think they were too good. However, unless the ENTIRE CAMPAIGN is built such that these advantages are always good, there is a lot of times where the Warlock is not using all their Invocations, and then they are just about the same as a fighter (EB is magical, ranged touch attack, so can compete damage wise, at least for a while).
Where Warlocks got better was with the SLA Metamagics and especially with crafting. It is rather undeniable that stacking UMD through the roof and achieving level 12 with as many crafting feats as possible allows the Warlock to effectively craft anything. IIRC, they don't even need to supply expensive material components when crafting using UMD. This makes the Warlock the single best crafter in the game, better even than the Wizard.
Seriously though- when isn't the ability to shatter objects at will, fly, spiderclimb, or turn invisible a kickass ability, regardless of the campaign setup?
I've seen a Warlock in play and I agree with Mirror².
Warlocks are far from being OP in combat, but their capacity to be in permanent invi/fly is a real nightmare for DMs and sometimes for other players.
I've seen a Warlock in play and I agree with Mirror².
Warlocks are far from being OP in combat, but their capacity to be in permanent invi/fly is a real nightmare for DMs and sometimes for other players.
This.
My experience has been that certain invocations, particularly leading to the flying invisible warlock, are the real frustration. It's not the blasting at all. I'd consider purging invisibility from the list of invocations.
Seriously though- when isn't the ability to shatter objects at will, fly, spiderclimb, or turn invisible a kickass ability, regardless of the campaign setup?Kickass, yes. OP or campaign breaking, no. It's a character that always has a specific number of tricks. The tricks are good, but entirely too predictable to be game changing. Part of the complaint against the primary casters is that they can change up their game plan every day. I personally don't see the issue, but the argument does have validity. If it turns out that encounter X can be overcome with a certain spell, and the caster just so happens to have that spell prepared, they win. Predicting whether they will have that spell is tricky. With a Warlock, you already know all their tricks, so you can give them time to shine, and also time to suck it and let the fighter do his thing.
Maybe it's because the Warlock I was with was a fellow PC and I was not DMing, and it's more probably because he wasn't "that kind" of Warlock, but that would be a game breaker for me from the other side of the screen. I'd feel I'd have to have a mix of villains/antagonists who could detect invisiblity and/or dispel flying on the regular just to have this guy be a little worried for his hide.
IMO, the Warlock was never OP (perhaps with the exception of some overcomplicated builds), and probably needs a bit of a "foot up" to hold it's own against the other PF base classes now.
Tome of Secrets did a version that is worth looking into.
It corrects the EB issue with a few scaling options for multiple blasts, and burst effects.
But is still extremely limited in regards to other Invocations to choose from...
Straight warlocks are rarely overpowered, but they can make things difficult at times (devil sight is rather annoying as a GM).
However, you do need to be aware of multiclass builds, as some builds can be, well not overpowered, but extremely effective.
I have a player who routinely plays Warlock/Scout. Especially if he can get a high-movement race or small race with high dex and light armor. He then runs around blasting people and getting his scout bonus on the damage.
Certain combinations of Warlock with other can be powerful, so just watch the race/feat/class combo. To be honest, that's true of any multiclass character, certain combinations tend to be more powerful than straight builds.
As long as you keep an eye on it, and make sure you let the other characters shine, it shouldn't be a problem.
Like MDT I think the single class warlock is far from overpowered. Its just hte multiclass prestige class combos you need to worry about. If the player isnt a min-maxer then that shouldnt be a problem. In the long run they are LESS troublesome to deal with as a dm then a typical wizard. At least they have paterns for what ways they warp space and time to screw with your monsters.
Warlock by itself isn't broken, and as many others have said, you may want to consider boosting it for a Pathfinder game.
The problem with the Warlock is that can be used for certain game-breaking combos. Don't allow any feats or special abilities that allow the character to sacrifice a spell for an effect based on the spell level - that's the biggest one.
I am remembering that the Eldrich Blast was both ranged touch and save for half damage. With the save being based on the enhancements put on the blast, maxing out at about 6th. Add on the standard action required and you see a 10th level Warlock blasting once a round for 5d6 with a save about 17 to 20. You also did half damage to objects, without taking a specific feat.
Also, as I recall, the invisibility was not based on greater, so attacking turned it off, requiring a standard action to turn it back on.
I'm not seeing the overpowered part, though I understand Guy's assessment as a 'selfish' class.
Of course, my memory could be wrong.
Oh! To quickly clarify: I'm not saying it's over powered. It's a round peg in a square world. Sometimes the warlock is laughably ineffective, other times dangerously unbalanced, but usually they just fly in the face of accepted D&D norms.
Agreed.
At the time I was looking for a caster who could concentrate on non casting (yes, I know how that sounds, but the GM didn't want to add any more full casters to the on-going game I was joining). I lost interest in the Warlock when I figured out I could't keep up with the Rogue for anything except social skills.
Oh! To quickly clarify: I'm not saying it's over powered. It's a round peg in a square world. Sometimes the warlock is laughably ineffective, other times dangerously unbalanced, but usually they just fly in the face of accepted D&D norms.
Its true the warlock doesnt fit one of the 4 main roles, but it does make a descent 5th party member. Or if other players are covering multiple roles (druid, summoner, bard etc), it can work.
I agree the fly in the face of accepted norms but i dont think they do so in a crazy powerful way. Its just different. Their damage (including the easier to hit) doesnt even come close to a pathfinder archer fighter. And as for the 24 hour fly and whatnot, the balance is they are far more limited then normal casters. Sure they are always flying or spiderclimbing but they arent throwing down black tentacles too or bestowing benefits on other characters. I would say the dont cause any problems for encounters that standard pathfinder classes cant do all on their own.
And I agree you have to prepare with the warlock in mind, but you should do that regardless of what classes are in your party. Whether your party is a fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric, or a druid paladin, acher fighter, summoner party, you need to pay attention to what your characters can do or some encounters are going to not go the way you expect them to.
As a rule, having a warlock in the party annoys the DM but not the other players. The things warlocks have as always-on powers are mostly utility: fly, see invisible, detect magic. Other players WANT somebody to do this stuff so they can concentrate on being able to do nasty things to enemies, and this is somewhere (almost) no warlock will outshine them.
Conversely, having invisible enemies, unscaleable cliff walls, and hidden magic is fun for DMs, who become tired of being asked, "Do I see anything magic? Do I see anything invisible? How high is the ceiling?" all the time. So, I think a DM is justified in disallowing warlocks merely on that principle, but that's an issue of style rather than of power.
In my experience, warlocks can fly around being marginally hard to hit but largely useless -- and that's if the area is open enough that they can stay out of reach. There's a reason blaster mages are so maligned, and a warlock is really just a blaster mage with very limited capacity for strengthening his blasts.
Warlock by itself isn't broken, and as many others have said, you may want to consider boosting it for a Pathfinder game.
The problem with the Warlock is that can be used for certain game-breaking combos. Don't allow any feats or special abilities that allow the character to sacrifice a spell for an effect based on the spell level - that's the biggest one.
But... warlocks don't get spells. If you're very clear on the difference between spells and spell-like abilities, that would be a useless feat. Unless you're talking about a multiclass warlock, in which case I'd argue that your problem might be with the other classes. For example, that warlock/scout; that might be the "best" way to build a warlock, but is it really the best scout? (Does sound like fun... I briefly considered a rogue/glaivelock before being informed that no way was I allowed Eldritch Glaive.)
Added to that, as James Maison said, that detect magic at will and the crafting are now common to most casting classes, and the fact that the sole superpowered evocation (Chilling Tentacles) is based on a somewhat nerfed spell... I'd agree that if there's valid concern over balance, it's that it's too weak.
I don't get the "selfish" aspect, though. A warlock makes a great scout (high dex, invis, flying, sees everything), and being able to fly means being able to attach ropes at the top of the cliff. The ability to point out something invisible is a massive help, and one that the casters appreciate not having to handle (what sorcerer wants to take see invis? what wizard wants to memorize it?) and add glitterdust or faerie fire from a scroll or wand and the problem of invisibility is solved. For that matter, anyone with a significant Use Magic Device skill can be made useful for the party. The crafting is just plain awesome, too, and given that there's no XP loss now, limited pretty much entirely by time and DM's whim.
Um, casters are pretty much flying all day, too, if they're worth their salt. And seeing invisibility is pretty much what wizards do. And detect magic whenever they want? Yeah, wizards got that.
Warlocks can do a few things wizards can do, just not as well.
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A lot of this depends on level. Past 12th level wizards are flying hours/ level with overland flight.
A few other notables -> Witch with the flight hex can fly for 5 minute long intervals at 5th level which puts them in the air for most encounters.
As for Eldritch Blast, the alchemists bombs blow away EB in terms of damage at higher levels. No SR but they have to deal with Energy resistance. The alchemists bombs are limited to a certain number of bombs per day though. They can toss a variety of damage types with discoveries though and can generally work around resistances.