Is there a RAW way to get rid of an unhallow spell effect? Unhallow and Hallow seem to counter but not dispel each other. And since Unhallow is an instantaneous affect it would seem that Dispel Magic is unable to affect it. It just seems that there should be some way to "fix" an Unhallowed area...
And on a more irrelevant note, what would you call the process of un-unhallowing an area? It wouldn't be hallowing or consecrating since the end result is only a theurgically neutral area rather than a hallowed one.
Dispel Magic.
Clarify? As I pointed out, Dispel Magic wouldn't seem to work on unhallow since its duration is "instantaneous".
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Is there a RAW way to get rid of an unhallow spell effect? Unhallow and Hallow seem to counter but not dispel each other. And since Unhallow is an instantaneous affect it would seem that Dispel Magic is unable to affect it. It just seems that there should be some way to "fix" an Unhallowed area...
And on a more irrelevant note, what would you call the process of un-unhallowing an area? It wouldn't be hallowing or consecrating since the end result is only a theurgically neutral area rather than a hallowed one.
Neutralising is a fine word.
Dispel Magic.Clarify? As I pointed out, Dispel Magic wouldn't seem to work on unhallow since its duration is "instantaneous".
By the raw, you cannot dispel the unhallow.
I think the unhallowed area would be treated like a magical item. The area has been enchanted for a year, and the best dispel magic could do it suppress the effects temporarily.
Dispel Magic descrption says:
Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can't be defeated by dispel magic.
There's nothing about that in Unhallow's description, so I would rule that DM is fine against Unhallow. Perhaps making it remove one effect per dispel.
You're conveniently ignoring the rule not two sentences later: "The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect."
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Aaargh ! All this time I was thinking that Hallow/Unhallow have a duration. Silly me, thanks for pointing this out !
And actually... that's a silly spell design. The "doesn't work on instantenous" spell clause in Dispel Magic is obviously intended against spells that just go poof (eg. Fireball), so that nobody tries to dispel Fireballs in order to negate the damage.
But hallow/unhallow are weird spells that actually do have lasting magical effects ...
In a way unhallow is internally inconsistent. It's got a duration of instantaneous yet has a spell effect tied to it that lasts for a year. Which is a defined duration longer than one instant. Even instantaneous walls last for indefinite time periods, but this spell turns itself partially off a year after casting.
Well, to get rid of it, I'd say you're screwed. The instantaneous duration means you can't dispel it, and it specifically can't be countered by hallow. Perhaps you should bring a wrecking ball, loader, and dump truck to the sight and knock it flat?
Perhaps you should bring a wrecking ball, loader, and dump truck to the sight and knock it flat?
You could destroy a building in which the unhallow was originally cast if you like, but the area will remain unhallowed nevertheless.
If it's truly impossible to nullify a hallow or unhallow effect, then it makes me wonder why a fantasy world wouldn't be dotted with countless hallowed and unhallowed areas; many overlapping. Sure it costs a fair bit of scratch to cast one or the other repeatedly, but imagine a prosperous nation that's been settled for hundreds or thousands of years. It could charge a sanctity tax to finance repeated castings. Even if they only cast the spell once a decade, eventually they'll hallow or unhallow entire cities. As empires rise and fall, more cities and churches are erected and subsequently fall into ruin; and yet the hallowed or unhallowed areas remain behind... forever.
If this is accurate then a world with a long history is likely dotted with hallowed and unhallowed sites of all shapes and sizes. Monsters and evil cults might congregate and fight over unhallowed areas while peaceful folk would favour hallowed locales to settle. Opposing armies might endeavour to lure their enemies into an unassuming field which happens to be hallowed or unhallowed in hopes of gaining an advantage. If one isn't conveniently located and the upcoming battle is pivotal then a warlord might be willing to have the field of battle be hallowed or unhallowed before engaging the enemy; creating yet another hallowed/unhallowed area in the world.
Just saying, without the ability to nullify these spells its inevitable that they'll continue to grow and spread over the globe. It'd become theurgical landscape of sorts.
Perhaps you should bring a wrecking ball, loader, and dump truck to the sight and knock it flat?You could destroy a building in which the unhallow was originally cast if you like, but the area will remain unhallowed nevertheless.
If it's truly impossible to nullify a hallow or unhallow effect, then it makes me wonder why a fantasy world wouldn't be dotted with countless hallowed and unhallowed areas; many overlapping. Sure it costs a fair bit of scratch to cast one or the other repeatedly, but imagine a prosperous nation that's been settled for hundreds or thousands of years. It could charge a sanctity tax to finance repeated castings. Even if they only cast the spell once a decade, eventually they'll hallow or unhallow entire cities. As empires rise and fall, more cities and churches are erected and subsequently fall into ruin; and yet the hallowed or unhallowed areas remain behind... forever.
If this is accurate then a world with a long history is likely dotted with hallowed and unhallowed sites of all shapes and sizes. Monsters and evil cults might congregate and fight over unhallowed areas while peaceful folk would favour hallowed locales to settle. Opposing armies might endeavour to lure their enemies into an unassuming field which happens to be hallowed or unhallowed in hopes of gaining an advantage. If one isn't conveniently located and the upcoming battle is pivotal then a warlord might be willing to have the field of battle be hallowed or unhallowed before engaging the enemy; creating yet another hallowed/unhallowed area in the world.
Just saying, without the ability to nullify these spells, its inevitable that they'll continue to grow and spread over the globe. It'd become theurgical landscape of sorts.
I came to the same conclusion. Therefore I think one of a couple options must occur before the whole world starts modifying people's die rolls:
1) Hallow and unhallow become tied to the site. If the site is destroyed, so is the effect. So get out my construction crew and build a strip mall on the unhallowed site, hit it with a meteor, have a couple dragons go through the area, whatever.
2) Let hallow and unhallow counteract each other properly. Don't like the fact that some minions of Rozagug unhallowed that hilltop? Then Iomadae's clerics can come through and hallow it to deal with that problem.
Neither works per RAW, but they make sense in their own ways.
On a side note, hallow and unhallow have a range of "touch". That means you can go through the 24-hour casting time in a place of safety then hold the charge and have someone else teleport you to where you want to cast the spell. I never noticed that until now.
Now, leaving aside that silliness, my ruling if it came up in a game I was running would be that the solution is a special application of break enchantment, requiring material components comparable to the spell being dispelled. Technically it doesn't affect Evocations, but it is the go-to spell for dealing with instantaneous effects.
I came to the same conclusion. Therefore I think one of a couple options must occur before the whole world starts modifying people's die rolls:
1) Hallow and unhallow become tied to the site. If the site is destroyed, so is the effect. So get out my construction crew and build a strip mall on the unhallowed site, hit it with a meteor, have a couple dragons go through the area, whatever.
2) Let hallow and unhallow counteract each other properly. Don't like the fact that some minions of Rozagug unhallowed that hilltop? Then Iomadae's clerics can come through and hallow it to deal with that problem.
Neither works per RAW, but they make sense in their own ways.
I do think that given the cost of casting hallow/unhallow, a simple dispel magic should not remove it. I don't have a problem with DM suppressing the effect temporarily.
I think an errata should be included to make clear hallow's effects can be negated by unhallow. The description as is now did not take into account the spell became instantaneous.
I like the principle thought that a 'holy' site is not just another kind of magic. I am undecided wether the added spell effect can actually be dispelled as written I do not really have a reason to say it can't.
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On a side note, hallow and unhallow have a range of "touch". That means you can go through the 24-hour casting time in a place of safety then hold the charge and have someone else teleport you to where you want to cast the spell. I never noticed that until now.
Heh. That'd make for some amusing antics in game.
BBEG: "So work on my Fane of Ultimate Darkness was in its final stages; the workmen were in the midst of attaching the virgin skulls to the central chandelier. Then, while I'm on a break from whipping the slaves to use the privy, it happens; Wilheim the Just and his merry band of do-gooders teleport right into the central nave, he touches the ground and they immediately teleport back out before my shadow drake can even draw breath. Now my Fane is @#%$%#$ HALLOWED! AND I CAN'T EVEN DISPELL THE DAMNED EFFECT!!! Sure I could unhallow it as planned but, you know, it'll just never be the same... You have any idea how tricky it was to engineer that molten lava pit in front of the altar? There goes 120,000 gold pieces and two years of work down the drain. May Wilheim's soul rot in Asmodeus' chamber pot for all eternity. That'd be justice!"
Though it obviously could not be part of an official Pathfinder product as it was not released for the SRD, I think that the rules for "Redeeming Evil Magic Items" on pages 119-120 of the Book of Exalted Deeds could be used pretty easily for Hallowing Unhallowed areas and contrawise as guidelines for Unhallowing Hallowed areas. It's not part of the Book of Vile Darkness but it seems logical and fair to follow the same system for "Damning Good Magic Items" and that's something I use as house rules in my own games.
Anyway, the system says that gold isn't needed but 1/25 the GP price is needed in XP. Since Pathfinder doesn't charge XP, simply charge the 1/25 XP charge converted to GP with the formula from the Pathfinder Conversion Guide: "If the spell requires the caster to expend XP, it instead
gains a material component whose price is roughly 5
times the XP cost."
Or, to put it more plainly, to Hallow an Unhallowed area, you need to get control of it, cast Dispel Magic to suppress the Unhallow effect, then cast Hallow but pay only 20% of the usual cost in oils, incense and whatnot for the ritual.
Following the same system in reverse, you should be able to Unhallow a Hallowed area by casting Dispel Magic followed by Unhallow while again paying only 20% of the usual Unhallowing costs.
Following that sort of system, Good and Evil will be continually fighting over the same Holy/Unholy sites for budgetary concerns if nothing else, which is likely as it should be.
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You cannot Dispell Unhallow with Hallow, but you CAN counter it.
That is, you cast a well thought out and planned Hallow in an area that is already Unhallow. For the most part the site goes "neutral".
Okay not TRULY gotten rid of, but then each effect is countered to a degree.
And since the Unhallow effect was in place first, the Hallow effect will outlast the Unhallow eventually.
I am okay with it not being able to be dispelled. In fact would prefer it stay that way and NOT be able to be dispelled.
Think about it, you create your wonderful awesome temple to your shiny cool god, complete with Hallow, and some butt head (probably an elf comes by and dispells it. You gather up your resources and go to work again, and yet another whipper snapper much lower in level than you (okay 4 levels not THAT much) gets a whim and dispells your Hallow. Sure gets irritating... that spell that was supposed to last a year keeps going *poof* every other day! Makes it a worthless spell to even bother with for your temple.
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Break enchantment could work if you bend the rules a bit. Strictly speaking, it can only target creatures, but your DM may allow it to affect an object (namely, the object from whence the unhallow effect emanates). Unhallow is a 5th-level spell, so it does fall within the normal guidelines of what break enchantment could otherwise dispel.
Otherwise, limited wish, wish, miracle, or a "negating" hallow spell should do the trick.
A simple Bless spell should take care of that pesky unhallow spell.
Does anyone have a definitive answer on how to "Quickly" get rid of an unhallow spell or negate the area.
My party is full of casters and the entire room we are trying to get into has Silence attached to the unhallow. It appears to be cast multiple times to cover a pretty large area.
Do you think a targeted Greater dispel magic would suppress the effect? Do we need to create a hallowed version of a darkskull? We thought break enchantment would work, but that is a minute long cast and we would not survive that long.
Is it possible to just negate the silencing effect attached to it?
Any advice would be great!
Thanks!
Mage's disjunction, miracle and wish should have no problem. As mentioned, dispel magic does not work against the unhallow but it should suppress any attached spell effect as if it were a magic item.
As noted above, if the unhallow is attached to a building or structure, destroying said location should work. If it's attached to a "site" you're kind of hosed, since a location can't be destroyed - it can just have its contents changed.
Depending on GM interpretation - if the GM interprets "site" as a specific location such as "this ring of trees" or "the hilltop" then I supposed destroying that would work also.
And I agree, the game mechanics are kind of a mess. But they were in 3.5 too so nothing has really changed :)
"Unhallow makes a particular site, building, or structure an unholy site."
My reading of this leads me to believe that the idea the site can be destroyed is correct - and once that level of investment is done to make a place (un)holy, it seems fitting that it would need to be destroyed utterly to unmake the effect.
This feels supported by the Gamemastery Guide with the late-stage Undead Uprising description "Hallowed ground remains a rare sanctuary, but only until destroyed by the malevolent forces without."