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In another thread about a Druid cleaning house as a Dire Tiger I noticed something odd. The description of Pounce says you can use Rake as part of the full attack...
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
That seems straight forward. The we read Rake...
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't[b] begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Ok this is extremely clear. To use a Rake, the attacker MUST be grappling and MUST BEGIN its turn already grappling...
so on to Grappling
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition.
That is the important part I wanted to note.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. [b]Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.
So let me get this straight... Pounce allows you to make the Charge and get a Full Attack, and as part of that full attack you can start a grapple AND overruling the rules of Rake, you can go ahead and make a Rake attack... all in the same round...
Now you see, it seems to me that using Rake automatically excludes making a Pounce, and making a Pounce automatically excludes making a Rake. Just how exactly does one start their round with the grappled condition, unable to move but can make a charge, get a full attack and the Rake in?
REALLY?
You're reading too much into it.
Using rake attacks on a pounce attack is an exception to the normal rake rules, which normally apply just to grapples.
A creature with both rake and pounce can use the rake attacks as part of a full attack action, but only when pouncing. He wouldn't get the rake attacks if he stood in one place and did a full attack.
My understanding is that Rake is intended to generally represent hind leg attacks. So think of a large cat such as a tiger. Its got sharp claws on its hind legs, but its not agile enough to make use of its hind legs as weapons in normal circumstances. But in a grapple, or if it pounces on a target, it can use those hind legs as weapons as part of its attack.
I think I got the first part - Pounce is an exception to the normal need to start the round grappling in order to rake.
But when making a Pounce attack, do I still need to start a grapple, or do I get the rakes without any kind of grapple going on?
Creative Director
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Yeah; you're overanalyzing the thing.
Pounce lets you make a full attack when you charge. This full attack includes rake attacks, if the creature has rake attacks.
Rake, on the other hand, is a type of natural attack that normally a creature can't use during a full attack or standard attack; something has to happen to allow a rake to take place. Normally, this means when the creature is grappling a foe, but when something has pounce AND rake, pounce lets you rake as well, even if you aren't grappling a foe.
Rake is indeed meant to represent the hind legs, generally. So in order to use a rake, a creature has to basically be all over its target... as in the case when it grapples, or when it pounces onto something.
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The key bit Krome, is this:
"In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe."
It's not just saying that a monster can only use its rake attacks against a grappled foe. Rather, it's saying that as part of the options available to a grappler. "In addition to the options available to all grapplers, etc."
So don't think of it as it can only ever use rake attacks against a grappled foe, but instead that when it IS grappling, it can use rake attacks but only against whoever its grappling.
Wow, thanks for the answers you two.
Now go outside, it's a nice Saturday in Spring after all!
Seriously though, I do appreciate both of your involvement on these boards!
...That's this thread.
...That's this thread.
I'm still trying to decide if that was intentional or not. Interwebs sarcasm FTW? I mean, it was a four year old bump after all.