I have been using it to retool races from DragonStar for my Pathfinder game, and it's been going smoothly.
Can you post a few?
Half-Pixie (10 points total)
+2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha (0 Points)
Small: Half-Pixies are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks. (0 Points)
Slow Speed: Half-Pixies have a base speed of 20 feet. (-4 Points)
Fly Speed: Half-Pixies have a fly speed 30 feet (good). (+4 Points)
Low-light Vision:Half-Pixies can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Vision and Light. (+1 Point)
Spell Resistance: 11+class levels(+6 Points)
Keen Senses: +2 Perception (+1 Points)
Chameleon: Half-Pixies cannot become invisible like there ancestors, but they can still blend in, as such they gain an additional +2 bonus on stealth checks (+1 Point)
Weapon Familiarity: Half-Pixies are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), long swords, Short swords, and short bows (including composite short bows). (+1 Point)
Languages: Half-Pixies begin play speaking Common and Sylvan. Half-Pixies with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Auran, Draconic, Elven, Gnome, and Terran.
Hello, I'd like to first start off by saying this is an awesome system! Makes for a fairly easy guideline to create custom races. A thought occurs though. I am trying to make a fey-like race that is able to use dancing lights as an at-will ability, but I can't figure out what point cost that would be. I noticed the gnomes abilities to cast those 4 spells once per day was 4 points, but wasn't sure if Dancing Lights at will would be the same cost, or more, or less.
Oh! Was also curious about the flight speeds/maneuverability. Is there a cost system for perfect maneuverability and whatnot? Was just trying to balance the flight on the race as well.
And for context, in my campaign setting, I am removing gnomes, and kind of changing up the Halfling to be more fey-like, thus making a new race for it. So I kind of wanted it to have some aspects of both races, while being more traditionally fey-like. It's kind of tricky to balance it properly.
This is what I have so far, but I dunno if it seems proper or not...
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str
Small (None)
Slow (-4 Points)
Keen Senses (1 Point)
Low-Light Vision (1 Point)
Expressive (+2 to one perform or craft check) (1 Point)
Spell-like Abilitie(s) (Wanted to give at will dancing lights, and perhaps a disguise self spell or something) (4 Points)
Supernatural Flight (4 Points)
Luck of the Trickster (+1 to saves) (4 Points)
Cold Iron Weakness (1.5x weapon damage to them, or perhaps poisons them or causes an effect) (-2 Points)
Defensive Training (+4 Dodge AC against giants) (1 Point)
Thoughts?
Here's what I currently have, but I think it doesn't seem too balanced anymore. I decided I don't want to fuse the gnome and halfling, and this will more or less be the new gnome in my campaign setting. Take a look and tell me what you think? I'll list how I have been rating its stats for balance purposes as well. Thanks!
Wispkin Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution: Though less hardy due to their small stature, the wispkin are surprisingly nimble, and half a strong sense of willpower.
Small: Wispkin are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a -1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on stealth checks.
Slow Speed: Wispkin have a base speed of 20 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Wispkin can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Chapter 7.
Defensive Training: Wispkin get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type.
Magic of the Wisp: Wispkin with a Charisma of 11 or higher gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day – disguise self, ghost sound, prestidigitation. The caster level for these effects is equal to the wispkin’s level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the wispkin’s Charisma modifier.
Wings of the Wisp: Wispkin have faint magical gossamer wings that aren’t truly there, but are merely a sign of their close ties to magic. They give the wispkin the ability to float up to their movement speed in a single round, but must begin and end their movement on a flat surface. If they end their movement in the air, they immediately fall straight down and take falling damage as applicable.
Wispfriend: Between the ages of 4 and 6, wispkin mature slightly and are then able to call forth a small portion of their fey spirits in the form of a wisp (Effectively like the glowing orb forms in the Dancing Lights spell). To call forth their wisp is a standard action that provokes no attacks of opportunity. The wisp sheds light as either a hooded lantern or a torch, at the wispkin’s discretion, and appears similar to a small Will-O’-Wisp of a color chosen at character creation. The wisp moves as the wispkin desires (with no concentration required): either forward or back, up or down, straight or turning, but generally will simply follow the wispkin. The wisp can move up to 30ft. a round, but winks out if sent beyond close range (25 ft. + 5 ft/2 levels). The wisp may be dismissed as a free action, and can be summoned again as early as the next round.
Enemies of the Fey: Wispkin gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the giant and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against the hated enemies of the fey.
Wild and Free: Wispkin gain a +2 racial bonus to saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Keen Senses: Wispkin receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Expressive: Wispkin receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Perform skill of their choice.
Languages: Wispkin begin play speaking Common, Wisp, and Sylvan. Wispkin with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc.
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con
Small (None)
Slow (-4)
Low-Light Vision (1)
Defensive Training (1)
Wispfolk Magic (3) - ad hoc adjustment 1 less spell than gnomes. (Changed in...)
Wispfriend (1) - Effectively dancing lights, though far more limited.
Wispfolk Wings (2) - ad hoc adjustment for not being a full flight speed
Hatred (1)
Wild and Free (1)
Keen Senses (1)
Expression (1)
I'm up to 8 points on here... but pretty much have everything I wanted it to have. Though I think some of the things may be a bit off, points-wise.. like Wispfriend. Though I kind of had it in mind for an at-will dancing lights that is far more limited than the actual dancing lights spell. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks for your time and attention =D
Flight as a racial ability is.. a problem in any campaign not designed around the players having flight at very low levels. You may want to look at what was done with the Raptorans in Races of the Wild - you could probably sell that as a 4 or 6 point feature, but straight flight is mammoth.. I'd put it at much higher than 4 or even 6.
The wisp flight thing is likewise higher than a 2 point feature - remember that 2 points is half a feat.. is the ability to fly up to your speed, though limited by starting and ending on your feet, half a feat worth of power? It is close to the draconic casting feat that allows sorcerers to fly up to 10 feet per spell level during a round they cast a spell... but is not limited to rounds where spells are cast. That makes it at *least* a 4-point feature, in my opinion.
For spell-like abilities the real question is "how useful are those abilities" moreso than how many there are, or how often they can be used. Prestidigitation at will, for example, has less game effect than ray of frost at will, despite being the same level and frequency. How often do you see gnomes using their spell-like abilities? More or less often than Disguise Self? It's a judgement call, of course, and something to be run past your DM.
"Wispfriend" you may have to make a choice about - is it a cosmetic feature, or one you plan to have a game effect? If it is cosmetic, then limit the range to 5-10 feet with no changes over time. Again, use the 4 points = 1 feat rule of thumb. If it is as useful as a feat, then its 4 points, if its half as useful as a feat, 2 points... if it is a minor thing (less than half as useful as a feat) then 1 point.
What really needs to be done is an expansion of the guide to include racial feat development, rather than expanding it to include very powerful features for base races. The point of the guide was to give a method for developing 0 LA races that most people could agree on as being 0 LA - adding in things that would create LA is sort'v beyond the scope of the guide, but those things can be done with a 0 LA race by making the powerful features be added across the character's level progression, and at the cost of feats. Also allows campaigns to not have to deal with over-powerful features until the time in the campaign where spellcasters might be causing similar things (and thus there's an allowance for such features).
By the way, The Elf should be +1 LA by your race builder (I like your race builder, I was just pointing this out.)
Elf (at least 11 pt)
+2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int (0 pt)
+2 to overcome SR (4pt)
Low-light Vision (1 pt)
Immune to sleep (2 pt)
+2 saves vs. Enchantment spells and effects (at least 2 pt)
Keen Senses (1 pt)
Weapon Familiarity (1 pt)
+2 on spellcraft to Identify magic items (maybe 1 pt, could be fluff)
That is a fair assessment - the elves are a slightly better race than others, and the place I see it coming in is their gratuitous weapon proficiencies with some of the most commonly used weapons in the game (longsword, rapier, longbow).
That said, again, these are guidelines not hard rules. While I did engage in some debate about level adjustments early on, my real point was not "how to decide what the LA, if any, is" but rather "my opinion on how to decide if the race satisfies the 0 LA requirements". I don't really think the hobgoblins need an LA either, despite being 12 points, but I am a vocal opponent of "power creep", upping things by a tiny bit and saying "does this really warrant a LA?" then doing it again and asking the same question, given that without that tiny addition it did not, and so on.
If I were on the pathfinder game design team, I'd probably suggest removing the proficiencies. The cultural familiarity with weapons lends itself better to what all the other races have - which is the conversion of certain exotic weapons to martial weapons... thus, martial members of that race know how to use them, but a level 1 commoner, or child, say, is not skilled with those weapons even if those weapons are common in their culture.
All that said, I would have valued the enchantment save bonus as a 1-point thing due to it being fairly specific, and the fact that enchantment effects are some of the least common thrown at PCs due to the fact that pretty much all of them involve losing control over your character, which just isn't fun... so DMs that aren't jackasses will be pretty conservative with their use, and when they are used they tend to be plot devices which you're going to fail your save against inherently anyway (plot devices get an automatic +9000 to their DC).
About the enchanment bonus, there are a lot of enchantment spells that PCs are subjected to, I mean it's an entire school of magic. Hold person, confusion, crushing despair, these are all DM favorites IMO. Even if Charm and dominate are uncommonly used against PCs, there are still a lot of de-buffs. And I for one would never set an impossible (or even unrealistically high) save DC, no plot hook (plot Harpoon in this case) is worth it.
DM favourites? Your DMs are jerks, then. The cardinal rule is that gaming is about everybody having fun, and not at the expense of other members of the group. Spells and effects that take control of a character away from the player are inherently obnoxious and unenjoyable for the players. Some DMs don't care, but good DMs know from being a player themselves that being forced to sit out chunks of a session are crappy.. and good DMs will care, too.
To each their own, of course, and this is veering quite a ways off-topic. As always, it is a judgement call, and that scoring was mine - you can vary things as you see fit, obviously.
Here's a slightly revised version based on your input and feedback!
Wispkin Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution: Though less hardy due to their small stature, the wispkin are surprisingly nimble, and half a strong sense of willpower.
Small: Wispkin are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a -1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on stealth checks.
Slow Speed: Wispkin have a base speed of 20 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Wispkin can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Chapter 7.
Defensive Training: Wispkin get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type.
Magic of the Wisp: Wispkin with a Charisma of 11 or higher gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day – disguise self, ghost sound, prestidigitation. The caster level for these effects is equal to the wispkin’s level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the wispkin’s Charisma modifier.
Wings of the Wisp: Wispkin have faint magical gossamer wings that aren’t truly there, but are merely a sign of their close ties to magic. They give the wispkin the ability to float up to 20ft. in a single round (with good maneuverability), but must begin and end their movement on a flat surface. If they end their movement in the air, they immediately fall straight down and take falling damage as applicable.
Wispfriend: Between the ages of 4 and 6, wispkin mature slightly and are then able to call forth a small portion of their fey spirits in the form of a wisp. To call forth their wisp is a standard action that provokes no attacks of opportunity. The wisp sheds light as either a hooded lantern or a torch, at the wispkin’s discretion, and appears similar to a small Will-O’-Wisp of a color chosen at character creation. The wisp moves as the wispkin desires (with no concentration required): either forward or back, up or down, straight or turning, and generally follows the wispkin. The wisp must stay within 10 ft. of the wispkin, or winks out. The wisp may be dismissed as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Enemies of the Fey: Wispkin gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the giant and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against the hated enemies of the fey.
Wild and Free: Wispkin gain a +2 racial bonus to saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Keen Senses: Wispkin receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Expressive: Wispkin receive a +2 racial bonus on a Craft or Perform skill of their choice.
Languages: Wispkin begin play speaking Common, Wisp, and Sylvan. Wispkin with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc.
Slow (-4 Points)
Low-Light Vision (1 Point)
Defensive Training (1 Point)
Magic of the Wisp (3 Points) ad hoc -1 point due to less spells than the gnome. (two 0th level and one 1st level, as a gnome, with one less 0th level spell)
Wings of the Wisp (4 Points limited flight)
Wispfriend (1 Point, torchlight)
Enemies of the Fey (1 Point Hatred)
Wild and Free (1 Point)
Keen Senses (1 Point)
Expressive (1 Point)
I'm still unsure about balance on this... it seems like the flight kind of knocks it out of wack, along with the spell casting. They don't get the +1 DC to Illusion Spells, or the bonus to saves against illusions... But... there's something about it that seems a bit off, still. Thoughts? (Sorry for reposting this so much, I just kind of need some honest feedback on it)
Well I have made this template, so I thought I would give it a shot with this system.
Summary
Bonuses
* +2 to one physical stat, but not past 20 (4)
* One Racial Feat (3)
* +2 diplomacy check with one animal type (0.5)
Minuses
* -2 to Int (-3)
* -2 Silver Damage Vulnerability; this includes mithral. (-2)
* Sickend carrying silver (-1)
* -4 to handle animal and ride with prey animals. (-1)
* Lycanthropic Blood (-0.5)
Please, I really think I got some things wrong, mind assigning your point value?
I've been working on a Red XIII style race for my friends final fantasy-esque game and I was just wondering what other people thought about it. The full thread can be found here
(Hone-eye-ha-kuh)
Looks: Honiahaka are a race of quadrupeds that resemble red wolf-like creatures. Despite their looks, Honiahaka are exceptionally intelligent and can speak.
Society/Relations: Honiahaka are known to live in small tribes, some nomadic and others choosing to stay in one location. They are generally looked at strangely by most other races because they do not come in contact with Honiahaka often, Mogs generally being the most excepting of Honiahaka.
Alignment: Honiahaka tend to travel in packs and are thus loyal to their friends and families, but since they dwell in a world that is dominated by bipeds, they've come to grips with the fact that they are not generally excepted. Most Honiahaka are neutral as a result.
Example Male Names: Bugenhagen, Nanaki, Seto. Example Female Names: Asdza, Deneh, Kasa.
Type: Magical Beast
Size: Medium
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Honiahaka are nimble and wise but they are feared by most races and some have bad tempers as a result.
Quadruped: Being that Honiahaka walk on all four of their limbs, Honiahaka are considered non-proficient with all simple and martial weapons (except for a select few, see Weapon Familiarity) as well as shields, despite any class levels. In addition, a Honiahaka can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. A Honiahaka can carry 1-1/2 times the amount of a bipedal creature of the same size. Finally a Honiahaka gains a +4 on CMD against being tripped.
Beastial Nature: Honiahaka have close ties with nature and their beastial ancestors and can therefore take monster feats they qualify for.
Fast Speed: Honiahaka have a base speed of 40 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Honiahaka can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Enhanced Scent: Honiahaka may use a feat to gain the Scent special ability.
Natural Attacks: Honiahaka are capable of making natural attacks with their sharp teeth and claws. A Honiahaka possesses a claw and a bite natural attack and both inflict 1d4 damage plus strength modifier on a successful hit.
Weapon Familiarity: Honiahaka are proficient with Steel Claws, Steel Jaws, and Tail Spikes.
Age: Adulthood 50 - Middle Age 100 - Old Age 200 - Venerable 300 - Max Age +2d%
Exotic Weapons
Steel Claw/Jaw - light - 15gp - *special damage* - 19-20x2 - 1/2lbs - S (claw), all types (jaw). Steel Claws/Jaws are metal pieces that races with natural weapons have developed to protect their natural weapons and cause more damage with them. A Steel Claw/Jaw allows the wielder to deal damage with their natural weapon as if it were 1 size category larger. If a Steel Claw/Jaw is sundered the wearer takes damage equal to the amount dealt to the object being sundered.
Tail Spikes - light - 5gp - small 1d3 - medium 1d4 - x2 - 1lbs - P. Developed by the Honiahaka long ago, tail spikes are small metal spikes attached to a ring that goes around the tail of a Honiahaka, allowing it to swing its tail as a devastating weapon.
My Final Fantasy Races using this system.
Bangaa
+2 str, -2 Int, +2 Wis (0 points)
Medium Sized
Normal Speed
-4 Penalty on sight-based perception checks (-1 point)
+4 bonus on hearing based perception checks (1 point)
Blind Combat (4 points)
Natural Attack (Bite: 1d3) (2 points)
Natural Armor bonus +1 (4 points)
Languages: Common, Bangaa, Bonus Languages: Draconic, Terran, Aquan, Undercommon, Seeq
Hume
+2 to any one Attribute
Medium Size
Normal Speed
+1 Skill point per class level
Languages: Common Bonus Languages: Any, except secret languages.
Moogle
-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha (8 points)
Small Sized (0 points)
Slow Speed: 20 ft. (-4 points)
Fly Speed: 30 ft. (Average) (4 points)
Technology Adept: +2 Disable Device and Knowledge (Engineering) (2 points)
Languages: Common, Moogle, Bonus Languages: Any, except secret languages.
Nu'moe
-2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Wis (4 points)
Medium Sized
Normal Speed
+2 on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance (4 points)
+2 to Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion) (2 points)
Languages: Common, Nu'moe, Bonus Languages: Any, except secret languages.
Seeq
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int (4 points)
Medium sized
Slow Speed: 20 ft. (-2 points)
...and steady (2 points)
Darkvision 60 ft. (2 points)
Hardy: +2 Fort saves (4 points)
Languages: Common, Seeq; Bonus Languages: Terran, Bangaa, Undercommon, Giant, Goblin
Viera
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Medium Sized
Fast Speed 40ft. (8 points)
Low-light vision (1 point)
Keen Senses (1 point)
Languages: Common, Viera, Bonus Languages: Sylvan, Terran, Aquan, Auran, Ignan, Draconic
I didn't see anything about increasing base land speed, only decreasing it. There is a feat called Fleet that gives a +5 bonus to your Base Speed if you are wearing light or no armor and not encumbered. This leads me to think that a Base Speed of 40 is a big deal.
I didn't see anything about increasing base land speed, only decreasing it. There is a feat called Fleet that gives a +5 bonus to your Base Speed if you are wearing light or no armor and not encumbered. This leads me to think that a Base Speed of 40 is a big deal.
I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here (Paizo's advocate?) and say that 10 ft should be around a 4 pointer at most. Yes, fleet is a feat, but it's not a good one. Fleet would in fact be too good if it was 10 ft. But I don't think that justifying everything by feats is a good idea, since even James Jacobs has said not all feats are equal. Yes you can zip around the battlefield, but it's not as useful as, say, +1 to damage with a single weapon, which is half of weapon specialization.
I was thinking along the same lines. I am remaking an Athasian Elf and I am trying to figure out a balanced way of adjusting their movement.
Combat Movement Idea: I definitely want an increase of some sort to their combat movement. I was thinking of a straight +10 bonus to their combat movement. If that was too strong I was going to adjust it;
;They only gain this bonus while wearing light or no armor and while not encumbered.
;Have the bonus not stack with the other class abilities or spells (or spell like abilities) that increase movement.
Overland Movement (Elven Run) Idea: This is an important part of Role Play for Athasian Elves, but in truth, it’s not that big of a factor when it comes to actual game play. I could have them make some sort of check to avoid the damage of an extended Hustle, meaning they could maintain a “Run” for up to 8 hours, making them on par with the original elves of Athas. I think this would be more fluff, or at most, a 2 point ability.
So what do you guys think of this race?
I haven't come up with a name yet
-4 str, -2 cha, +2 Dex, +2 wis,
small size
Fey type: gives immunity to "blank" person spells, which is mixed blessing no hold person but no enlarge person and low light vision
30ft base speed
Keen senses: +2 to perception checks
Survivalist: +2 to stealth checks and survival check
Claws: They have two claws that do 1d4 damage.
Scent: they have scent feature. range 30ft.
Now for the break down with this system.
stats
starts at -2 str, +2 dex, +2 wis,
modified -4 points for -2 to cha
-2 points for extra -2 to str
claws are 4 points
low light vision, from fey type is 1 point
fey type i would rule is 2 points due to it giving minor imunity to a few spells
scent: this one is pretty major so i was thinking 6 points
Keen Senses is 1 point
Survivalist is worth 2 points so....
that brings us to 10 point race
I am kinda iffy on the scent one but it fits my picture of the race especially in my world do you guys think that would be worth 6, 8, or 10 points i really don't think i should be much more.
Either way feed back would be appreciated.
Base speed increases are a big deal. If you want to add base speed, you'll either want to pair it with some sort of limitation, as you see with the barbarian or monk speed increases, or even the mentioned feat, or you want to give it a really high point cost under this system.
What most people do not consider is that base speed increases also affect armored speed - the formula for speed in heavy armor is 2/3 base speed, rounded up to the closest 5-foot increment (as per the 3.5 DMG). Thus a base speed increase of 10 feet (40 foot) makes the armored speed of such a character 30 feet, which is the same as the base unarmored speed of everyone else... That's WHY you'll usually see the limitation on speed increases related to no/light armor or light loads.
Scent, on the other hand, is not that big a deal.
Guess we'd have to look at everything in the APG, and compare. With the new alternate racial abilities, they seem to give up things as well, which may or may not still be equal. We'd have to look into it.
Guess we'd have to look at everything in the APG, and compare. With the new alternate racial abilities, they seem to give up things as well, which may or may not still be equal. We'd have to look into it.
From the few I've seen, the Advanced Players' Guide matches up pretty well to what VoodooMike has come up with.
Scent is now a feat that half-orcs can take. That COULD change the point cost of Scent to 4 points, which sounds about right. There was an option in the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide to take Scent as a feat as well, so that is not a big surprise.
I said in another post, if you are more comfortable with "Official Only" material, by all means roll with it. Race building isn't an exact science, and all guide lines are useful.
Yeah, it seems like a lot of the feats/abilities are kind of able to fluctuate in point value quite a bit. Though this is still a very useful guideline.
Scent has always been worth 4 points - there are multiple feats that give scent to different characters.
My local store doesn't have the APG yet so I'll have to wait and see. That said, I've already been working on a larger, revised version of the race building guide that aims to cover pretty much everything you could rationally want when creating a player race, though entirely aimed around building LA 0 races. To that end, I may start posting sections with RFC hopes.
The paradigm I'm working with is to do away with LA and monster class and instead spread the abilities of races that would require those things across many feats that adjust a normal-power starting race. A good example of what I mean would be the winged flight feat set in races of the dragon, which allow for flight eventually, but given in stages that prevent it from drastically altering the DM's planned adventures, as many abilities can do if given too early.
I'm curious (mainly because I've got a player begging me to play one) how the Elan from Expanded Psionics Handbook would balance out in this system.
Elan
-2 Charisma
Aberration-Thus free of those pesky "blank" person spells ya'll were chatting about above
Medium sized
Base Speed 30 feet
Naturally Psionic: Elans gain 2 bonus power points at 1rst level.
Resistance: Immediate action to burn 1 power point for +4 racial bonus to Saves
Resilience:Immediate action- When taking damage can burn 1 power point to subtract 2 points from the total damage.
Repletion: Burn a power point so as to remove the need to eat or drink for 24 hours.
Anyway, I'm open to the idea of psionics, but I'm wondering if the races would balance out in this system. What would you guys say is the point cost of the Resilience power?
Now that I'm thinking about it, even general opinion if the psi rules as stated in EPH balance out with Pathfinder at all. (Don't mean to divert the topic just thought I'd take the opportunity.)
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Touching once again on the Level Adjustment issue, and using the Bestiary as a rough guide (core races are CR 1/3) I decided to evaluate theother +0 LA (CR1/3) and +1 LA (CR 1/2) races to see how they match up. Results incoming. Feel free to dispute my listed point values.
AASIMAR - CR 1/2
- +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom
-- Switch a racial stat bonus to the other category. (4)
-- Negate -2 worth of racial stat penalty. (4)
- Normal speed
- Darkvision 60 ft. (2)
- +2 Diplomacy and Perception (2)
- Daylight 1/day (4-6)
- Acid, Cold, and Electricity Resistance 5 (8-10)
TOTAL: 24-28 Certainly +1 LA at least (+2-+3 based on my standards)
DROW - CR 1/3
- +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution
- Medium
- Normal Speed
- Darkvision 120 ft (3)
- Immune to sleep (2)
- +2 vs Enchantments (2-3)
- +2 Perception (1)
- SP 6 + Class levels (4)
- Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire 1/day (8-12)
- Light Blindness (-2-4)
- Poison Use (4)
- Weapon Familiarity (4-6)
TOTAL: 24-33! Certainly +1-+2 LA, far more than the guidelines would suggest. (+2-+4 based on my standards)
DROW NOBLE - CR 3 with 3 levels of Cleric, estimating CR 1 Base
- +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution
-- Improve a racial stat bonus from +2 to +4 (10)
-- Add a new +2 bonus to a stat that lacks it in a category that already has a bonus x2 (16)
- Medium
- Normal Speed
- Darkvision 120 ft (3)
- Immune to sleep (2)
- +2 vs Enchantments (2-3)
- +2 Perception (1)
- SP 11 + Class levels (6)
- Spell like abilities: Holy Crap! 5 at will (including deeper darkness, feather fall, and levitate), constant detect magic, and divine favor, dispel magic, and suggestion 1/day. this is easily 20-40 points by itself, possibly more.
- Light Blindness (-2-4)
- Poison Use (4)
- Weapon Familiarity (4-6)
TOTAL: 64-89+ If ever Paizo designed a race for villains, this is it. (+9-+13 or higher based on my standards)
TENGU - CR 1/2
- +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom
- Low-Light Vision (1)
- +2 Perception and Stealth (2)
- +4 Linguistics and 2 languages per point. (4)
- Automatically proficient with sword-like weapons (10-12)
- Bite 1d3 (4-8)
TOTAL: 21-27 Certainly +1 LA at least (+2-+3 based on my standards)
TIEFLING - CR 1/2
- +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
- Darkvision 60 ft. (2)
- +2 Bluff and Stealth (2)
- Darkness 1/day (4-8)
- Cold, Electricity, and Fire Resistance 5 (10-12)
- Fiendish Sorcery (1-2)
TOTAL: 19-26 Certainly +1 LA at least (+2-+3 based on my standards)
Looking at it, there aren't a lot of bestiary races that are suitable as PC races, regardless of having a "X as Characters" ruleset. I don't know that I'd classify Hobgoblins as +1 LA (I like to use a +/- 3 point rule for my games. i.e. 7-13 points is LA+0), but after looking this over, I certainly won't be allowing these races any longer.
Also, I love kobolds. Currently there are sitting at 0 points:
Kobold (0 pt, thus -1 adjustment.. or CR 1/4 rather than 1/3):
-4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con
-2 Con (-4 pts)
-2 to Mental stat with bonus (-2 pts)
-2 to Strength with penalty (-2 pts)
Darkvision (2 pts)
Armor (4 pts)
Crafty (3 pts) +2 to 3 skills, and two are always class skills ad hoc +1 pt
Light Sensitivity (-1 pt)
By changing their racial stat adjustments to -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, dropping Light Sensitivity and adding Low-Light Vision, this would bring them up to 10 points, making them roughly equal with the core races. Or do you think in order to keep the appropriate feel, other traits should be added instead of what I currently have?
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I see your point about the Tengu, although I still think automatic proficiency with sword-like weapons is worth more than 2 points, especially when incorporating new exotic weapons. It just opens up too much potential to have every Exotic Blade Master be a Tengu.
I also see your point on the Aasimar, but I once again think you're underestimating the resistances. Sure, Acid and Electricity don't really come up that much, but Cold is another core damage type. At any rate, I simply took the point values for vulnerability to those types and lopped off the "-".
All in all I could see allowing the Tengu as a +0 LA race, but most races that are presented as viable PC races just seem too over the top to me.
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I see your point about the Tengu, although I still think automatic proficiency with sword-like weapons is worth more than 2 points, especially when incorporating new exotic weapons. It just opens up too much potential to have every Exotic Blade Master be a Tengu.
I also see your point on the Aasimar, but I once again think you're underestimating the resistances. Sure, Acid and Electricity don't really come up that much, but Cold is another core damage type. At any rate, I simply took the point values for vulnerability to those types and lopped off the "-".
All in all I could see allowing the Tengu as a +0 LA race, but most races that are presented as viable PC races just seem too over the top to me.
The sword proficiency's value really depends on how many supplements you use; I stick to the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Players' Guide, so there aren't that many sword weapons to be proficient with, especially considering that I don't give the Tengu player proficiency with Falcata and Khopeshes. Also, while a Tengu is well suited to being an Exotic Blade Master, a human or half-orc is just as well suited because they can get a racial Strength bonus and no Constitution penalty while only having to take one exotic weapon proficiency feat, which a Fighter level would easily take care of, in return.
The resistance isn't that big of a deal for the Aasimar. Sure, it will block a couple of low level effects at like, 1st-3rd level, but by the time you're having Cones of Cold or Lightning Bolts thrown at you, you're just taking 30 damage instead of 35. It takes the edge off, and nothing more. Additionally, the 2nd and 3rd level Sorcerer/Wizard spells that ward you from energy, Resist Energy and Protection from Energy are way better than the Aasimar resistances, just like the Tengu languages and Tongues.
Fair enough.
I'm personally of the mind that automatic proficiencies by way of race are a really, really bad idea. Racial weapon familiarity is best done by treating certain exotic weapons as martial weapons to that race such that the combat-oriented members of that race will be using them rather than having all members of that race carrying what would normally be warrior-level weapons.
I like to use what I call the 6yog approach. Apply a race's template to a six-year-old girl (6yog) and see if the adjustments make sense. Would a six-year-old half-orc girl be able to see in the dark? sure, that makes sense.. would she be more intimidating than her human counterpart? probably. Would she be able to wield a greataxe more easily? No, probably not, even if it were reduced in size to be more appropriate for her.
It makes plenty of sense to say that if she grew up to be a fighter, she'd be more likely to have spent time learning to use the orcish double-axe, given that it can be said to be part of her cultural heritage, but if she grows up to be a tavern dancer it makes very little sense that she instinctively knows how to use battleaxes.
Racial weapon proficiencies are a fairly decent advantage. Tengus being proficient with anything "sword-like" is a pretty big deal, really. Being able to treat sword-like weapons as martial weapons would be less problematic (it'd be my choice, but I didn't write that book...) as it would keep tengu sorcerers from swinging around an elven courtblade at level 1.
Scent has always been worth 4 points - there are multiple feats that give scent to different characters.
My local store doesn't have the APG yet so I'll have to wait and see. That said, I've already been working on a larger, revised version of the race building guide that aims to cover pretty much everything you could rationally want when creating a player race, though entirely aimed around building LA 0 races. To that end, I may start posting sections with RFC hopes.
The paradigm I'm working with is to do away with LA and monster class and instead spread the abilities of races that would require those things across many feats that adjust a normal-power starting race. A good example of what I mean would be the winged flight feat set in races of the dragon, which allow for flight eventually, but given in stages that prevent it from drastically altering the DM's planned adventures, as many abilities can do if given too early.
I like this idea. Your Race design, so far, makes the most sense and is easy to use. I would stick with LA 0 simply because I haven't seen any strictly Pathfinder rules for level adjustments. I would advise making a new thread for your 2nd Edition Race Guide.
I think there are rules in a free download that tell you how to reduce the power of a Tiefling to match the base races. Something like that could be applied to other Planetouched like the Aasimar.
I would disagree with spreading monster abilities. The way Pathfinder is set up, making a "Monster Class" would be far easier to pull off than in 3.5. They lost too many skills in 3.5 to make them practical in that system.
Hate to show my lack of understanding, but I am having a hard time grasping the Stat adjustment thing. I want to make a half-giant type race and I'm thinking of a +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence. I know this is "physical heavy" and is going to be expensive, I just can't grasp how it would work out in the point system.
On Powerful Build: I am planning on not having this trait. You can make up for it by allowing him to use Bastard Swords and Waraxes as martial weapons. In fact any Two-Handed Martial / One-Handed Exotic weapon could work like this and is well balanced. To further the idea of a size advantage, use something similiar to the Dwarven Stability trait, only have it defend against Bull Rush and Overrun. You could maybe increase his carrying wieght by 1.5 times as well.
Weapon Familiarity: 1 point
Stability: 2 points
Increased Carrying: 1 point
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I see your point about the Tengu, although I still think automatic proficiency with sword-like weapons is worth more than 2 points, especially when incorporating new exotic weapons. It just opens up too much potential to have every Exotic Blade Master be a Tengu....The sword proficiency's value really depends on how many supplements you use; I stick to the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Players' Guide, so there aren't that many sword weapons to be proficient with, especially considering that I don't give the Tengu player proficiency with Falcata and Khopeshes.
Normally, as a rule of thumb, there aren't too many core races that have automatic proficiency with the Elven Curve Blade, and 1h proficiency with the Bastard Sword, or Automatic proficiency with the 2 bladed sword.
Elves aren't even that awesome, they don't automatically get their own curve blade as a proficiency, they have to have Martial Weapon Prof to get it. So these damn birds get to know how to use an elven sword fresh out of the egg?
Granted, Tengu are awesome, but there's a reason I don't normally allow them as a playable race when I'm allowing other races out of the bestiary. I'll allow Drow before I allow Tengu, and the Swordtraining is the reason why. If I'm a dual wielding rogue, I'm just going to take the Two Bladed Sword instead of a pair of short swords or daggers. If I'm any other class, I'll take my Elven curve blade, or Bastard sword one handed please. It essentially gives every class access to a caliber of weapon it's not built for without taking a feat.
Nothing normally wrong about this, just in general it's pretty powerful. I'd agree with a LA +1 if I had to assign one.
I'm personally of the mind that automatic proficiencies by way of race are a really, really bad idea.
Agreed. In my game, no one gets them for 'free', but either by taking a logical class or by taking a 'weapon group' feat. Now certain 'buffs' are there for certain races with certain weapons, Dwarves with Dwarven axes, Raptorians with Raptor bows, etc.
Loving the race balancing system, btw.
I'm personally of the mind that automatic proficiencies by way of race are a really, really bad idea.
I can understand your arguement, and it's quite valid, but for game purposes, I don't think it's that bad. A wizard with a sword is still a wizard. I think it adds a little bit of flavor to the races; dwarves with axes, elves with bows, halflings with slings, and so forth. It's more tradition than rational.
On an edit note.
My stat question above is for +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, and -2 Intelligence (no Constitution bonus). A similiar stat make up with the goblin would make this a net 6 points.
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I'm personally of the mind that automatic proficiencies by way of race are a really, really bad idea. Racial weapon familiarity is best done by treating certain exotic weapons as martial weapons to that race such that the combat-oriented members of that race will be using them rather than having all members of that race carrying what would normally be warrior-level weapons.
I like to use what I call the 6yog approach. Apply a race's template to a six-year-old girl (6yog) and see if the adjustments make sense. Would a six-year-old half-orc girl be able to see in the dark? sure, that makes sense.. would she be more intimidating than her human counterpart? probably. Would she be able to wield a greataxe more easily? No, probably not, even if it were reduced in size to be more appropriate for her.
It makes plenty of sense to say that if she grew up to be a fighter, she'd be more likely to have spent time learning to use the orcish double-axe, given that it can be said to be part of her cultural heritage, but if she grows up to be a tavern dancer it makes very little sense that she instinctively knows how to use battleaxes.
Racial weapon proficiencies are a fairly decent advantage. Tengus being proficient with anything "sword-like" is a pretty big deal, really. Being able to treat sword-like weapons as martial weapons would be less problematic (it'd be my choice, but I didn't write that book...) as it would keep tengu sorcerers from swinging around an elven courtblade at level 1.
I agree about this, although a sorcerer wielding a courtblade (with a con penalty, mind you), still kind of sucks. He's going to get killed by the first bandit who hits his 13 AC; someone who bases his character around wielding exotic swords would probably have proficiency in them to begin with. As I said earlier, a human or half-orc would be a better option for an exotic blade master because of their potential strength bonus and lack of a constitution penalty. While a Rogue automatically being proficient with a double sword is fairly good, the base damage die of the weapon stops mattering to a Rogue after about 3rd or 5th level. The sword proficiency is really good for the first few levels, but after that, it's pretty much pointless. It's definitely not worth giving the Tengu level adjustment over.
I guess I haven't run into a situation where I've seen it be that weird; the Tengu in my campaign is playing a Monk.
I'm making a human monk with some half-giant heritage.
would powerful build be a fair trade for the human bonus feat and extra skill point?
Using large sized weapons (without added reach) is very powerful, while the +1 to CMB & CMD not so much.
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I'm making a human monk with some half-giant heritage.
would powerful build be a fair trade for the human bonus feat and extra skill point?
Using large sized weapons (without added reach) is very powerful, while the +1 to CMB & CMD not so much.
I'd say that any race with powerful build deserves at least +1 LA. I don't really care if it gets other racial features or has a ton of weaknesses, powerful build is insanely good.
I'd say that any race with powerful build deserves at least +1 LA. I don't really care if it gets other racial features or has a ton of weaknesses, powerful build is insanely good.
You are probably right, I had only glanced over the smaller die sizes, which work out one point damage more. The jump up for the larger die weapons are dramatically improved, almost doubled in some cases.... pretty unbalancing I guess.
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Guys, I think you missing a very important thing.
The reason why the Tengu (and Hobgoblin for that matter) are listed as 1/2 in the bestiary is because the proposed version uses a strong class (rogue and fighter respectively) and not a weak ncp class.You need to calculate that in your analysis. According to the core rule book, pc classes are 1 harder the ncp classes. hence, tengu and Hobgoblin are just 1/3 (as most of the other races) when you put an ncp class on top of them rather then a pc class (and the other way around).
If this has been said before, please forgive me. I have been reading this thread in parts so I might have missed a post or two.
O.O I had honestly never noticed that particular bit of information. It still doesn't change how the racial abilities work, though.
Tengus aren't getting a smattering of weapons as automagical proficiencies, they're getting "anything sword-like" which is fairly over the top... it means that they are proficient with any long-bladed exotic weapons they encounter as well as all martial "swords" nomatter what they happen to have as a class, etc.
You're welcome to make monster level progressions, or class level replacements (have fun making them for every class for any given race) but as I mentioned above, I find monster classes to be a poor paradigm. Class replacement levels for specific races are fine so long as there is a trade-off rather than simply a bonus (in my opinion, obviously).
Powerful build is worth +1,000,000 points.. which is just me saying "there's no good way to have that in a LA 0 race". There has never been a race in any 3.x book that had powerful build without a level adjustment, to my knowledge (which I'll admit may be incomplete). I'd probably suggest making it two racial feats that require character level 5th. Split the benefits into two with the major benefits being the second feat that has the first as a prerequisite, and have the level 1 benefit be the +4 against bull-rushes and what not.